Supposed closeness between Rome and Orthodoxy

Knee V

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Because the Roman Catholics view everything from a very legalistic point of view, apologetics are very complete and it makes a lot of sense to me that it would be more appealing to the Reformed types. It is more similar to what they've experienced before, and it's equally concerned with validity and apologetics.

Quite so. My journey this direction started from a Reformed point of view, and the Catholic method of apologetics was very appealing and comforting, given the way my mind was trained to operate.

Based on what little understanding I have, speaking solely from my own experience, I found that it was a MUCH easier jump from the Reformed camp to Rome than it was from Rome to Constantinople. In my own journey I found a proximity between Rome and the Reformers that was scarcely there between Rome and the East. They may look similar on the outside, but begin to scratch below the surface and the similarities begin to die away pretty quickly. Rome is MUCH more akin to her Western counterparts that broke away from her than she is to the East from whom she broke away.
 
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mark46

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really? Then should I then conclude from your response that the autoecephaly is accepted by all other EO?

To say that something is not questionable would mean to ME that those in communion with Moscow do not question it.
===========

BTW, if the OCA were truly accepted as being autocephalous, then a next step might be a patriarch for the Americas.

. The OCA does not have a questionable autocephalous nature. The autocephaly was granted by the Moscow Patriarch in 1970.
 
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mark46

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I pray that Holy Spirit will give you the gift to discern your way.

I agree with you conclusion that to accept the arguments against the Reformed churches should NOT necessarily mean accepting the RCC. There are many other choices. For example there are OCA, Greek Orthodox and ACNA churches in Dayton. There may be other choice as well in your area.

Yours in Christ,

mark


Thanks for everyone's replies. There seems to be almost a continuum on both the EO and RC sides, kind of moving in toward the center from both directions. On the ends you have those who see any attempt to find common ground as heresy (we have them in Protestantism too), and it further seems that the only people they dislike more than their respective opponents, are those in their own communions whom they view as compromisers. In the middle you have those who want to whitewash all differences and simply blur the lines rather than deal with the hard truths that there really are insurmountable differences, and that somebody is wrong about something.

E.C., funny you said you tend to ignore any writing that portrays the debate as either/or between Catholic/Protestant. That must mean you don't read much written by either ;) I've found that those Catholics who like to minimize the differences, when pressed, don't seem to understand the differences. I don't hold them entirely at fault--their own "infallible" documents seem, to me, confusing at best regarding the issue. Of course most Christians of any stripe don't understand their own beliefs, much less those of any other communion.

What really irritates me about the apologetic picture, and the Called to Communion site in particular, is that they never seem to actually establish their own position but merely to assume it. They have a lengthy article, and a very compelling one, about the issue of the canon of Scripture. I will admit I have always found this to be the hardest pill to swallow in Protestantism. They do make good points. But having made those points, they jump in a single bound to the need for the Roman Magisterium, which they claim is what declared the canon in the first place.

In reality, if I were to accept their proofs and step outside the fold of Protestantism, I would not be standing in the fold of Rome. I'd be back out in the pasture, looking for another shepherd. Most Protestants and Reformed in particular are so accustomed to this debate that if they do accept a Catholic argument as valid they will not see anything other than Rome as an alternative--even other Protestant communions are basically ruled out (after all, they only sprung up after the Reformation).

It's a plain fact that EO can and do make many of the same arguments against Protestant positions as Rome, and likewise declare themselves as the "one true church," and it's Rome that left. Each side is right given its own presupposition of its own authority which makes it maddening for anyone out in the pasture.

From the RC side, I can see that if they convinced a Protestant to leave his communion, only to find more arguments between RC and EO, he will have a long road ahead of him. But if they say "You know, they're really pretty much just like us, and we accept their bishops and sacraments, so really you should just become Catholic" it sure makes things easier.
 
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ikonographics

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Differences such as the Filioque, the Immaculate Conception etc are only the tip of the iceberg. The most serious differences are far deeper.
In the Orthodox Church salvation is theosis (deification), the process of becoming "like God" by participating in God's uncreated Divine Energy (aka Divine Grace). This is impossible in the RC Church because they believe that God's Grace is created. From the EO point of view, if God's Grace is created then we simply cannot be saved - we can't be united to God. In the end one is left wondering if we even believe in the same God.
 
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Michael G

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Differences such as the Filioque, the Immaculate Conception etc are only the tip of the iceberg. The most serious differences are far deeper.
In the Orthodox Church salvation is theosis (deification), the process of becoming "like God" by participating in God's uncreated Divine Energy (aka Divine Grace). This is impossible in the RC Church because they believe that God's Grace is created. From the EO point of view, if God's Grace is created then we simply cannot be saved - we can't be united to God. In the end one is left wondering if we even believe in the same God.

QFT.
 
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E.C.

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E.C., funny you said you tend to ignore any writing that portrays the debate as either/or between Catholic/Protestant. That must mean you don't read much written by either ;)
I have to keep my sanity somehow you know... ;):p

I've found that those Catholics who like to minimize the differences, when pressed, don't seem to understand the differences. I don't hold them entirely at fault--their own "infallible" documents seem, to me, confusing at best regarding the issue.
We can not hold individual people at fault. Period. Only God knows their hearts and quite frankly if we mere mortals tried to know the hearts of others we'd be making nothing more than exercises in futility and trips to mental hospitals.

Differences such as the Filioque, the Immaculate Conception etc are only the tip of the iceberg. The most serious differences are far deeper.
In the Orthodox Church salvation is theosis (deification), the process of becoming "like God" by participating in God's uncreated Divine Energy (aka Divine Grace). This is impossible in the RC Church because they believe that God's Grace is created. From the EO point of view, if God's Grace is created then we simply cannot be saved - we can't be united to God. In the end one is left wondering if we even believe in the same God.
Or worship the same Christ for that matter.
 
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Macarius

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I've been reading articles lately at a site called "Called to Communion," a group of former Reformed Protestants become Catholics who now do apologetics toward other Reformed. They have some compelling arguments, mainly directed toward the Reformed view of authority and how it is ultimately individualistic--then they jump immediately to filling the authority vacuum with the Pope. Orthodoxy is essentially ignored.

This is highly typical today. In general, the RCC has been more apt to pay attention to Protestants since the Protestant reformation. It has tried more and more to lump Orthodoxy in with it as more of its justifications for papal-centralism in the 11th century are shown to be forgeries or historically untenable.

I see his main point, that agreement between the two does not give Protestants a new hammer to swing against either--but he seems to minimize the differences between Rome and EO almost to the point of being irrelevant. "Joining the EO is a step in the right direction," or something similar (paraphrasing).

This is an attempt to get you to not look too carefully at the EO. The simple fact is this: when pressed, the RCC cannot justify the modern (i.e. post-11th c.), or contemporary (i.e. post Vatican I) papacy without appealing to the idea of "development of doctrine," because those teachings just were not present in the early church.

Orthodoxy, to be blunt, scares them. They want reunification most assuredly because of the Christian love in them and their desire for the unity of the body. But if there is any commitment to real, authentic tradition, then the fact that there exists a body, legitimately succeeding from the apostles, that still follows to the letter the model of church government laid out in Scripture and the earliest of the tradition (i.e. St. Ignatius of Antioch)... this has to scare them (them being the apologists, not Roman Catholics in general). Apologists like to be able to use process of elimination (easier to disprove a point than prove one). Having the EO as a legitimate alternative - and one willing to challenge the most basic assumptions of the RCC - adds an incredible layer of complexity and difficulty.

I followed up with the author to clarify the inherent problem of "if both make competing claims to being the one, true church that didn't fall away in the 11th century, how is one to know which is which. His response was gracious but struck me as saying "It really isn't all that important because both are true churches, and both have valid sacraments, so you really can't go wrong either way." Seemed more evasive than anything, although I do not think it was his intent.

If we have valid sacraments, then they should recognize that belief in the papacy is not holy tradition. In other words, if one can deny the papacy's claims to itself and STILL have valid sacraments (full salvation, and therefore a full church), then belief in the papacy is clearly non-essential and all of Rome's blustering about it should be stopped.

Hope that helps...

In Christ,
Macarius
 
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Barky

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If we have valid sacraments, then they should recognize that belief in the papacy is not holy tradition. In other words, if one can deny the papacy's claims to itself and STILL have valid sacraments (full salvation, and therefore a full church), then belief in the papacy is clearly non-essential and all of Rome's blustering about it should be stopped.

HEAR HEAR!!!! I cannot for the life of me figure out the RCC distinction between 'validity' and 'communion' is. So, our sacraments are 'valid' and we aren't in 'communion'? What kind of a contradiction is this? How can you have one without the other.

I almost wish the RCC would take a polemic route in the other direction. At least then all of our cards would be on the table.
 
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Michael G

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HEAR HEAR!!!! I cannot for the life of me figure out the RCC distinction between 'validity' and 'communion' is. So, our sacraments are 'valid' and we aren't in 'communion'? What kind of a contradiction is this? How can you have one without the other.

I almost wish the RCC would take a polemic route in the other direction. At least then all of our cards would be on the table.

The Roman position is that Orthodox have valid sacraments, but our sacraments are illicit. Thus they are valid, but illegal in the Roman eyes. I did not get to the point in seminary where you study Roman Canon Law (which is a VERY different thing than Orthodox Canon Law) so I have no clue what that actually means.
 
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Joshua G.

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This, for me, is a difficult issue.

There is no doubt that the culture and mindset between the Roman Catholic Church (western) and the Orthodox Church is very different. Our ways of explaining and perceiving the faith are very different.

But I believe this was true for a very long time before 1054.

This suggests a few things to me.

1) Within the Church, there have always been different, valid approaches to the same issue. We look at Alexandria vs Antioch on some issues and neither was heretical, but the approaches were different. Surely the same would happen between East and West on a grander scale.
2) This doesn't mean that all differences were celebrated. Certainly there were differences that were concerning but, apparently, not divisive.
3) There are issues that are indeed divisive. And there are issues that perhaps SO concerning that they would inevitably lead to division so, in essense, they are divisive even if not in their immediate form.

I often wonder if we had reunited soon after 1054 and the role of the Pope were not allowed to morph into what it has morphed into now, would the west really be that different today?

Surely it would be, but would their not be different schools of thought on an issue? What would those be? How would they look? What differences would be celebrated and which would be tolerated? I don't totally know the answers to these questions and really no one knows, but perhaps some very excellent scholarly historians on Church history (such as Jarislav Pelikan) could offer (or in his case could HAVE offered) some useful insight here.

I think these are useful questions to attend because it can help us separate that which is divisive from that which is concerning or simply different.

I will also say this: Lex orandi, lex credendi. I think two modern issues that get in the way of our reconciling is that the orandi part has changed so drastically in the West in the past 40 years. Had this happened while we were still one Church, I don't know that we would ahve split over this, but it would have certainly been very concerning (if it could have even happen... which I actually doubt). I do believe that there was a MUCH better chance for reconciliation pre Vatican II than now and I beleive that in spite of the fact that Vatican II helped factually open Rome up to the East once again. The problem is that the West openned up intellectually to the East, but litugically it opened up to protestantism.

In the end, this creates a major psychological barrier between the EOC and the RCC because we Orthodox really can't relate to Western Liturgics becuase they are apporached so vastly differently (and I am not talking about the fact that the statuary and the vestments and chant is different but rather that there is such a lack of statuary, vestments (although this is still there mostly) and chant, etc...

I don't think western Catholics in general understand how major the role of the Liturgy is in the life of the common Orthodox. What the catechism is to them, the Divine Liturgy is to us. yes, the Mass is important to them. But, it's different. I have a feeling, however, that before Vatican II, how we valued the Mass/Divine Liturgy was much more on a even playing field. This change may not be WHAT separates us factually, but spiritually, perhaps. perhaps others can put these mind ramglings into better words. If so, I thank you :)

Josh
 
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Ignatius21

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This is highly typical today. In general, the RCC has been more apt to pay attention to Protestants since the Protestant reformation. It has tried more and more to lump Orthodoxy in with it as more of its justifications for papal-centralism in the 11th century are shown to be forgeries or historically untenable.

Interesting mention of the forgeries, etc. The RCC apologists do, I admit, come up with some compelling arguments against Reformed positions. But, operating in the 2-choices mode as I have, I have found the Reformed "soft spots" regarding church authority, etc. to be easier to spackle over than the historical problems with the Papacy (among other issues). The Reformed arguments against the Papacy (many of which are about the same as the EO arguments against the Papacy) are simply too strong to ignore. Which brings me back to my original point, I guess, which is that if someone steps outside the bounds of Protestantism, he doesn't find himself in Rome, but rather in a confusing jungle of other options that could also vie for the title to ultimate authority.

This is an attempt to get you to not look too carefully at the EO. The simple fact is this: when pressed, the RCC cannot justify the modern (i.e. post-11th c.), or contemporary (i.e. post Vatican I) papacy without appealing to the idea of "development of doctrine," because those teachings just were not present in the early church.

Yet Protestants get attacked for having doctrines not clearly discernable in the early church. One side gets carte blanche to develop doctrine, which is awfully handy when you're already presupposing your own authority. But then I guess all traditions presuppose their own authority.

Orthodoxy, to be blunt, scares them. They want reunification most assuredly because of the Christian love in them and their desire for the unity of the body. But if there is any commitment to real, authentic tradition, then the fact that there exists a body, legitimately succeeding from the apostles, that still follows to the letter the model of church government laid out in Scripture and the earliest of the tradition (i.e. St. Ignatius of Antioch)...

RCC apologists love Ignatius. They quote his comments on real presence and episcopal authority and then jump to transubstantiation and the Pope.

this has to scare them (them being the apologists, not Roman Catholics in general). Apologists like to be able to use process of elimination (easier to disprove a point than prove one). Having the EO as a legitimate alternative - and one willing to challenge the most basic assumptions of the RCC - adds an incredible layer of complexity and difficulty.

Incredible, I agree. I have asked only a smattering of Protestants-turned-Catholics about this, and if they're even aware of the EO ("are those the Greeks?") they've only been told about it via Catholicism, and believe the two sides are on the verge of reconciliation and really are pretty much the same (i.e. why bother looking?)

If we have valid sacraments, then they should recognize that belief in the papacy is not holy tradition. In other words, if one can deny the papacy's claims to itself and STILL have valid sacraments (full salvation, and therefore a full church), then belief in the papacy is clearly non-essential and all of Rome's blustering about it should be stopped.

Ain't never heard it phrased like that before. I think you've raised a good point.

Now go reply to Romans! :D
 
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Michael G

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Sorry, but Italian food owns anything and everything. This is not debatable.

What are you sniffing? Everyone knows that eating pasta will instantly bring anathema upon anyone!
 
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