Suppose Both are Incorrect

[WisdomTree]

Wow, I totally did not expect this...

 

[Albion]

The mountain of evidence is available for any sincere Bible student to see in the history books, that the churches of Christendom are extremely blood guilty.

I said that I could easily defend my answer, and I still feel that way. In the first place, none of the world's great religions has completely clean hands, but what happened centuries ago does not define the style of the churches or religions today. And I am bearing in mind that the question I answered was about the religions at present.

Second, while it is possible to list warlike activities of Christians in the past, you can't approach this question without doing the same with all the others. If that is done, I strongly feel that Christianity is not worse than the others but is the one faith that has balanced its record by having made major contributions towards tolerance and peace.

 

[Simonline]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity. But they are correct in the main points - the ones we all believe in without effort. But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning. Having been raised on the Catholic "our method is the only way to salvation", and also many years of evangelical "just by faith"...I know first hand the shortcomings of each theology. Fact is, God can reveal all He wants, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the profound, sublime truths of God's dimension.
I submit that 2,000 years of Christian learning, history, tradition and the evolved theology may have led the great majority of believers into dead ends on how to "get God." (I am not saying I have the way). We're flailing, admit it. I admit it.
I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us. In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.
Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

Firstly, it simply isn't true that God cannot be known because He is Infinite whilst we are finite. God has revealed Himself to us deliberately and specifically so that we might know Him not exhaustively but intimately. What God has revealed to us is the Truth but it is not exhaustive. God has gone out of His way to reconcile us to Himself and to overcome the barrier of sin and death that exists between us.

The purpose of salvation is to be at peace with God, with ourselves, with other people and with the Creation as a whole. This is the true meaning of Shalom. The Gospel is about discovering for ourselves that it is possible to be reconciled with the God Who created us and having been reconciled to allow Him to transform our lives so that we stop being part of the problem and become a part of the solution, the Kingdom of Heaven. All man-made religion irrespective of it's stripe is a fundamental part of the problem. Only God Himself has the power to authentically transform lives so that they conform to transforming life of the Messiah (Rom.8:29) and so play their part in being the solution rather than the problem. The true Body of Christ is not an institution but a living organism that exists solely to live for and glorify its Creator. This is the effect that being in love with someone has on an individual and when one is in love with God because of how He has miraculously transformed one's life then one cannot help but become a part of the living organism that lives to further the Kingdom of God (Jn.15:1-17).

If this has not been your experience of God then I am truly sorry for you but I doubt very much that you will find such an experience through reading theological trash as Wm Paul Young's 'The Shack'?!

Simonline.

 

[sonhador]

I'm at the point of a faith journey where I've concluded both sides of the "Arguement" - Catholic and Protestant, are wrong in many elements of their particular interpretations of Christianity. But they are correct in the main points - the ones we all believe in without effort. But each school's method of reaching God are, in the end...just guesses. No one can know the mind of God, and even when He has revealed things, it's most often in metaphors that the observer must interpret...guess at the meaning. Having been raised on the Catholic "our method is the only way to salvation", and also many years of evangelical "just by faith"...I know first hand the shortcomings of each theology. Fact is, God can reveal all He wants, but our finite minds cannot comprehend the profound, sublime truths of God's dimension.
I submit that 2,000 years of Christian learning, history, tradition and the evolved theology may have led the great majority of believers into dead ends on how to "get God." (I am not saying I have the way). We're flailing, admit it. I admit it.
I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us. In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.
Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

There is no such thing as one liking the other and the other not liking you.

If you truly love someone, that someone will love you.

Love exists between. Not alone.

Everything is a mess because of one word that is divided. This word being, "God".

God is a mess because the world is a mess. The world is a mess because God is a mess.

When the world finally understands what is to be good, then all can agree on what is good.

I cannot be good, unless you are also good. So long as there is one human on this earth who is not good, God will always be far above us, waiting to come down.

You do not have Heaven, with a fragment of Hell, you do not have God, with a fragment of Ungodlyness.

God is love. But a love you do not yet know. And when you do know it, you will know what is God, and no longer be confused.

 

[timbo3]

I said that I could easily defend my answer, and I still feel that way. In the first place, none of the world's great religions has completely clean hands, but what happened centuries ago does not define the style of the churches or religions today. And I am bearing in mind that the question I answered was about the religions at present.

Second, while it is possible to list warlike activities of Christians in the past, you can't approach this question without doing the same with all the others. If that is done, I strongly feel that Christianity is not worse than the others but is the one faith that has balanced its record by having made major contributions towards tolerance and peace.

Yes, none of the world's great religions have completely clean hands, for, in fact, these are notoriously blood guilty, including the churches of Christendom. At Revelation18:24, Jehovah God says that within Babylon the Great, the world wide empire of false religion, of which all the religions of the "world" are a part of, that "in her was found the blood of prophets and of holy ones and of all those who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

Of Judaism, Jesus placed the Jewish religious leaders as among their forefathers who were guilty of murdering the prophets and wise men, telling them that "some of them you will kill and impale, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city; that there may come upon you all the righteous blood spilled on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zech·a·ri´ah son of Bar·a·chi´ah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar."(Matt 23:34, 35)

Why did Jesus says that the Jewish religious leaders were guilty of murdering Abel, as well as Zechariah, since these died hundreds to thousands of years earlier and they were not personally present ? Because these displayed the same wicked disposition toward God's prophets and wise men, of whom Jesus was one of them, as their forefathers. These fostered hatred for God's prophets and literally put to death those who stood for Jehovah God and his righteous principles during their lifetime.

Jesus thus said: "Truly I say to you, All these things will come upon this generation."(Matt 23:35b) Those of the nation of Israel, of "this generation", that disregarded Jesus and his words, were later destroyed when General Titus decimated Jerusalem over the course of April 3 - August 25, 70 C.E., whereby 1.1 million Jews were slaughtered.(Matt 24:15-21)

Jesus established only one true religion, Christianity. In so doing, however, he gave an illustration that the true religion or Christianity, he established would fall away or apostasize, but would eventually be reestablished, ' beating their swords into plowshares and spears into pruning shears, learning war no more.' (Isa 2:2-4)

He said: "The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’” (Matt 13:24-30)

The "man that sowed fine seed" is Jesus and "while men were sleeping" means after the death of the apostles, with John as the last apostle, dying in about 100 C.E. Especially after the apostles had died, "weeds" or counterfeit Christians began to appear among the "wheat" or genuine Christians who honor Jehovah God, praying for his name to sanctified.(Matt 6:9, 10)

And who planted these "weeds" ? "The enemy", Satan. He corrupted the Christian congregation by means of wicked apostates, infiltrating them within the Christian congregation until they overwhelmed it with unscriptural teachings and doctrines, of which the churches of Christendom have spread throughout the earth.

These were allowed to grow together from the end of the 1st century until "the harvest" or our time period (called the "last days", 2 Tim 3:1; 2 Pet 3:3, 4), in which true Christians would again prosper and be distinguished from counterfeit Christians. At the end of this time period of the "harvest", the "weeds" or counterfeit Christians will be ' bound into bundles to be burned up' and the "wheat" or genuine Christians are being gathered into God's "storehouse" and be saved from destruction at Armageddon in the near future.(Rev 16:14, 16)

 

[Albion]

Yes, none of the world's great religions have completely clean hands, for, in fact, these are notoriously blood guilty, including the churches of Christendom.

Yes, but the question THEN becomes "Which religion has done the most to promote peace and religious tolerance?"

 

[timbo3]

Yes, but the question THEN becomes "Which religion has done the most to promote peace and religious tolerance?"

Has it been the religions of the far east, such as Buddhism or Hinduism, that has promoted genuine peace ? For example Buddhism, although it is customary to speak of it as one religion, in reality it is divided into several schools of thought. Based on different interpretations of the nature of the Buddha and his teachings, each has its own doctrines, practices, and scriptures.These schools are further divided into numerous groups and sects, many of which are heavily influenced by local cultures and traditions.

Buddha taught that enlightenment and salvation—the perfection of Nirvana (said to be the cessation of individual existence)—come, not from any God or external force, but from within a person by his own effort in good deeds and right thoughts.

The Encyclopedia of World Faiths observed that “early Buddhism appears to have taken no account of the question of God, and certainly did not teach or require belief in God.” In its emphasis on each person’s seeking salvation on his own, turning inward to his own mind or consciousness for enlightenment, Buddhism is really agnostic, if not atheistic.

It ignored the fundamental concept of a Supreme Being, by whose will everything exists and operates.(Acts 17:24, 25) Thus, can Buddhism, that is divided into numerous groups and sects as basically atheistic, promote genuine peace ? In a word, no.

The various sects if Christendom (over 41,000 as of 2010) have shown themselves as not promoters of peace, but rather fosters of division and hate. Islam too, is divided, such as between the Shiites and Sunni, often shedding each others blood as well as other people.

For example during World War II, “it was Shinto, the native religion of Japan, that had not only given its wholehearted support to the war machine but had provided its very rationale,” said The Christian Century (Nov 21, 1984). It further said that "perhaps nothing has done more to discredit Christianity than its practice of taking a stand virtually indistinguishable from that of non-Christians on the practice of war."

How many religions have done just that—‘given wholehearted support to the war machine’! Think of the massacres and reprisals perpetrated by Buddhists and Hindus in Sri Lanka, the murders and atrocities involving Catholics and Protestants in Ireland—with the list seeming endless! “Hindus, Moslems, Sikhs and other sects have been bloodying each other for centuries in India,” lamented U.S.News & World Report.

On the other hand, the Bible provides those who will promote genuine peace, peace that shows love rather than hate. At Isaiah 2, it says that "it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it all the nations must stream. And many peoples will certainly go and say: “Come, you people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths.” For out of Zion law will go forth, and the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem. And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore."(Isa 2:2-4)

Jehovah's Witnesses have followed this very closely, having ' beaten their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears, learning war no more.' They have remained neutral in times of war (or in so-called "peace"). They have never mingled in the political arena, unlike all the other religions of the "world", adhering to Jesus words that his disciples would be "no part of the world."(John 15:19)

These follow Jesus words to his disciples, "I am giving you a new commandment, that you love one another; just as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are my disciples, if you have love among yourselves" to direct their lives.(John 13:34, 35)

For example, during World War II, who were the ones that remained politically neutral ? According to the Edith Shake, instructor at Arizona University, in her web page "The 3rd Reich & the Holocaust Era, Jan 1933 - May 1945", wrote of those in Germany and surrounding countries, that "Jehovah's Witnesses endured intense persecution, because of what they did - because they were resistors who opposed the Nazi regime. Actions against the religious group and its individual members spanned the Nazi years 1933 to 1945. Unlike Jews and Sinti and Roma "Gypsies", persecuted and killed by virtue of their birth, Jehovah's Witnesses had the opportunity to escape persecution and personal harm by renouncing their religious beliefs."

She further wrote: "In retrospect, it could be said that the clash between Jehovah's Witnesses and Nazism....was all but inevitable. Why ? Because of the Nazis unyielding demands that conflicted with three of the Witnesses fundamental Bible-based beliefs.

These are (1) Jehovah God is the Supreme Sovereign. (2) True Christians are politically neutral. (3) God will resurrect those who have proved faithful to him until death....they courageously spoke out and exposed Nazism as the evil that is was. Jehovah's Witnesses refused to heil Hilter. ...."Heil Hitler" implied that salvation was by Hitler. ....they did not vote in elections; they would not join the army or the German Labor Front."

Of the first century, she wrote that "many early Christians died because they obeyed God rather than men. Scores perished in Roman arenas because they refused, in effect, to heil Caesar by rendering an act of worship to him."

Some 13,400 Witnesses-in Germany and in countries occupied by the Nazis suffered reprisals because of their faith. They followed the direction of the Bible, remaining politically neutral and refusing to take up arms. (Matthew 26:52; John 18:36) Some 4,200 Witnesses were interned in concentration camps, and 1,490 lost their lives.

Also, because of their refusal to bear arms against their fellow man, over 13,000 Korean Jehovah’s Witnesses have served a total of 26,000 years in prison. (2 Cor. 10:3, 4)

Jehovah's Witnesses have continued to follow closely in Jesus "footsteps" (1 Pet 2:21) by refusing to involve themselves in the world's wars and political wrangling. Instead, these have promoted genuine peace by ' loving their neighbor as themselves '(Luke 10:30-37), applying Isaiah 2:4, ' beating their swords into plowshares'.

 

[Albion]

Has it been the religions of the far east, such as Buddhism or Hinduism, that has promoted genuine peace ?

Certainly not.

But let me explain that further. Yes, Buddhism has a reputation for peacefulness, but has it really changed anything over the centuries? The Far East has produced the most violent and warlike history right up to our own lifetimes. Individual rights are not even given a thought in many Asian countries. By comparison, it was Western Civilization--a product of Christianity--that has led the world in outlawing slavery and human trafficing, granting people the right to own what they've worked for honestly, creating a worldwide peace association (the UN), and championed family and justice issues that are still only a dream in much of the rest of the world.

 

[timbo3]

Certainly not.

But let me explain that further. Yes, Buddhism has a reputation for peacefulness, but has it really changed anything over the centuries? The Far East has produced the most violent and warlike history right up to our own lifetimes. Individual rights are not even given a thought in many Asian countries. By comparison, it was Western Civilization--a product of Christianity--that has led the world in outlawing slavery and human trafficing, granting people the right to own what they've worked for honestly, creating a worldwide peace association (the UN), and championed family and justice issues that are still only a dream in much of the rest of the world.

So what is the one true religion that Jesus established, called "The Way" (not Ways as in plural) at Acts 9:2 and 19:9, and of which the apostle Paul said that there is "one faith" at Ephesians 4:5 ? Which religion is the "pure religion" that is "unspotted from the world" that James spoke of at James 1:27 ? How many are sincerely searching for what Jesus called "the truth" at John 8:32 ?

 

[benelchi]

I had a dream 8 months after my Dad passed away, and what he told me was not only utterly unexpected, but shockingly wonderful...and revealed to me something I'd have never guessed at in my Christian life: that God was gracious, personally kind, and who liked us.

It is unfortunate that you would have never guessed that God is gracious, kind, and loves us dearly, so dearly that he gave the life of his son for us. That is the Gospel message and the central theme of Scriptures. One need not abandon orthodox theology to believe these things about God.

In all my years as a believer I had inferred that God was mean and distant. Some time later I read the book "The Shack", which introduces me to a God that was also unlike the God of theology - a God who was wonderful.

I am sorry you had such a poor understanding of the God spoken of in Scripture, but it would be a huge mistake to jump to the equally poor understanding of God taught in the theology of "The Shack." Failing to understand God's grace and love was a huge mistake, failing to understand his truth, righteousness, sovereignty, etc... is an equally bad mistake.

Were we taught as Catholics and Protestants that God was kind, gracious, and close? I don't think so, and that's a grudging conclusion after 50 years of faith. We search the scriptures daily...but do you like God and do you think God likes you?

Either you have had extraordinarily bad luck with teachers who did not understand Scripture or you didn't pay very good attention.

 

[Albion]

So what is the one true religion that Jesus established, called "The Way" (not Ways as in plural) at Acts 9:2 and 19:9, and of which the apostle Paul said that there is "one faith" at Ephesians 4:5 ?

That religion is normally called "Christianity" because the New Testament indicates that that name was applied to the disciples of Christ early on. Of course, there are several other terms for this religion, such as "the Way" which is also ancient in origin. I really don't see any problem here.

 

[WisdomTree]

"Christian" = "Christ-like"