support in scripture

[Super Kal]

as dealing with Covenant theology, I would like to see scripture that supports the theological position that God sees both the Church and Israel as one...

Yes, there is Galatians 3:27-29 and Colossians 3:11 where it speaks of unity between Jews and Gentiles, but there has to be more. Me thinks one cannot make an entire position of theology based around 2 scriptures... along with this, I would also like to hear what Romans 11 and Ephesians 2:11-22 means in its context, because when it comes to Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism, I always hear conflicting thoughts about these two positions for Ephesians and Romans, and I want to hear what both sides have to say in a loving and Christ-like manner

we're all Christians here, and there's no need to be screaming at each other just because our theology is different

 

[MrPolo]

as dealing with Covenant theology, I would like to see scripture that supports the theological position that God sees both the Church and Israel as one...

This article immediately comes to mind. Full article here.

The relevant paragraphs identify two understandings of the Woman in Revelation 12 as the following:

She is Israel because she is associated with the sun, the moon, and twelve stars. These symbols are drawn from Genesis 37:9–11, in which the patriarch Joseph has a dream of the sun and moon (symbolizing his father and mother) and stars (representing his brothers), which bow down to him. Taken together, the sun, moon, and twelve stars symbolize the people of Israel.

The Woman is the Church because, as 12:17 tells us, "the rest of her offspring" are those who bear witness to Jesus, making them Christians.​

Hope that helps!

 

[heymikey80]

I think the question really revolves around what you mean by "Israel". If you mean the political nation up to the First Century, then no, they're not the same. If you mean the people of God, who ultimately formed that nation which then kind of got hijacked by people who weren't God's, then they are conceptually the same.

Ultimately they're both the people of God.

It's harder to deal with this latter view, because of the former view. I tend to call upon Romans 2 and 4 to deal with the common points and the distinct points here. Paul moves fluidly among the common meanings of "Israel" and "Jew", using terms in context to mean either of the two views above. It has appeared to some theologians that Paul means to point out Israel's failing to fulfill its role, while the church presses on to fulfill that very role.

I'd also point out, the implications behind the entirety of Galatians 3 points up the very real idea that the children of Abraham are intentionally ... the church and the people of Israel, in one concept and treated as one.

 

[visionary]

It is like the United States still being called Christian nation when they get over run by atheists, Islamics, or any other faith that is not Judeo-Christian.

The country, Israel, has people with faith in God and has its history in the knowledge and truth of the One true God, after all they are the keepers of the oracles of God, but it is only the faithful to the truth that can be called God's people.

That is where is gets confusing when reading scripture. God has chosen Israel, but I do not believe that Israel has yet chosen to follow God and fulfill its chosen destiny. The gentiles have to come in first before the blinders come off.

 

[Super Kal]

thank you for the input... now when it comes to Hebrews 11 in relation to Covenant Theology, I'm completely confused

could anyone help me understand this?

 

[OldWiseGuy]

The real question of course is: Did God offer the new covenant to the physical descendants of the twelve tribes of Israel, even though they were no longer a nation? Are these the lost sheep of the house of Israel that Jesus said he "was sent only to"? A lost sheep wanders in the wilderness, but is still a sheep. Israel was destroyed as a nation only. Their descendants certainly didn't vanish from the earth. Remember too that gentile was a term used to distinguish between Israel and other nations. When Israel lost that distinction she was dispersed among the gentiles, becoming indistinguishable from them. But, though they would be "sifted through the (gentile) nations like wheat, not a grain would fall to earth (be lost to God)". Mmmmmmmmmmm, intellesting.

owg (tribe of Zebulun, Benjamin)

 

[Benefactor]

25. For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

I am a dispensationalist and I see this statement “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;” filling the gap between Daniel’s 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week. Regardless of where one puts the rapture there is yet one week of Daniel’s 70 weeks to be fulfilled.

26. and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27. "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Matthew 24 speaks of a tribulation that is culminated with the Return of Christ. Dispensationalist see those passages and this statement referring to the same event the second coming at which time the remaining Jews are saved.

The gentile time - separate from the time we are in now, Church Age or dispensations of Grace - has one more week (7 years) to be fulfilled.

Verse 28 gives us a clearer picture:

28. From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29. for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Gifts and callings some believe refer to the covenants made with the Nation Israel. I tend to agree even thought the language dues not specifically use the word covenant. I am not sure how else to apply gifts and calling except to see it as meaning the covenants made to Israel.

When you take all the unfulfilled prophecies and analyze and compare them some interesting results are evident.

 

[heymikey80]

thank you for the input... now when it comes to Hebrews 11 in relation to Covenant Theology, I'm completely confused

could anyone help me understand this?

I'm unsure of the source of confusion.

Hebrews 11 is talking about everyone B.C. who had faith, and shows that the in the entirety of all covenants, there's an essential unifying concept of faith in each and every one of them.

That's pretty consistent with the view of Covenant Theology that there's unity among the covenants. To this view they display a thematic Covenant of Grace that's common to all covenants with God.

 

[ChristianSoldier85]

thank you for the input... now when it comes to Hebrews 11 in relation to Covenant Theology, I'm completely confused

could anyone help me understand this?

I think you mean Romans 11 right? Well, the root is Jesus, natural branches are the Jews and the wild branches the Gentiles. Remember the scriptures arent anti-semitic (a la verse 28, no, Israel is the apple of God's eye).

But the current form of Judaism arrived from the Babylonian captivity, it was constructed by rabbinical scribes and lawyers and became known as Phariseeism. A ridiculous religion, ultralegalistic and ultimately hypocritical. These Pharisaic writings were later compiled into what is called the Babylonian Talmud, and many sects regard it as highly or if not with higher authority than the Tanakh (Jewish Old Testament God's true Word). Many people refer to modern Judaism as -- Talmudism. Today its considered a major part of Jewish thought and history of a people, it is what Jesus and others during his ministry called "the Tradition of the Elders". If fact there is alot of verses scattered throughout the New Testament that reference the Tradition of the Elders aka Phariseeism aka Talmudism as they're are scattered myths, fables, and ridiculous laws abound throughout its contents and even some content has been suspected as being directly inspired by Babylonian religions during the captivity.

I hope this post wont be perceived as a form of defamation but rather I plea pray for the Jews (race, ethnic, and convert).

 

[Super Kal]

no, I do mean Hebrews 11...

in relevance with Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.


there is no distinction between the Jews and the Church, but the book of Hebrews does throw me off... quite well, actually

 

[ddub85]

If the church is Christ' bride, then WHY is she pregnant?

God Bless!

 

[ddub85]

@ Super Kal

as dealing with Covenant theology, I would like to see scripture that supports the theological position that God sees both the Church and Israel as one...

You can find scripture which states that the church and Israel are one in Christ, according to the promise of all nations being blessed. However, in terms of the church being or becoming Israel, there is no such scripture.

Yes, there is Galatians 3:27-29 and Colossians 3:11 where it speaks of unity between Jews and Gentiles, but there has to be more. Me thinks one cannot make an entire position of theology based around 2 scriptures...

Very astute observation. For an issue of this importance, there would have to be support for it. There is none. Please remember that these scriptures you mention link Jew and Gentile ACCORDING TO THE ONE PROMISE that all nations will be blessed.

...along with this, I would also like to hear what Romans 11 and Ephesians 2:11-22 means in its context, because when it comes to Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism, I always hear conflicting thoughts about these two positions for Ephesians and Romans, and I want to hear what both sides have to say in a loving and Christ-like manner
we're all Christians here, and there's no need to be screaming at each other just because our theology is different

I too am very interested in the responses to this. I hope a little micro-examination is ok, as we know that iron sharpens iron. Also, one should be able to properly defend their position with scripture.

God Bless!

 

[ddub85]

Although both Jew and Greek are in Christ, they are never considered to be the same. Gal 3 is very clear in pointing out that the connection is with the promise (SINGULAR) of all nations being blessed. The other promises given to Abraham are to the Jews.

God Bless!

 

[Super Kal]

If the church is Christ' bride, then WHY is she pregnant?

God Bless!

I take it you're referring to Revelation 12, where the woman gives birth to the man-child... if that is the case, I don't know... but what I do know is that Ephesians 5:25-27 does compare the body of Christ to the Bride of Christ, or a woman

Although both Jew and Greek are in Christ, they are never considered to be the same. Gal 3 is very clear in pointing out that the connection is with the promise (SINGULAR) of all nations being blessed. The other promises given to Abraham are to the Jews.

and yet Romans 2:28-29 tells us
28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical.
29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

and Romans 9:6-8 also tells us
6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel,
7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but "Through Isaac shall your offspring be named."
8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

and it is also Galatians 6:15-16 which tells us
15 For neither circumcision counts for anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation.
16 And as for all who walk by this rule, peace and mercy be upon them, and upon the Israel of God.

Galatians 6 tells us that it doesn't matter to God if we're part of a national Israel or not... what matters to the Israel of God is a new creation, which happens within us when we accept Christ into our hearts as Lord and Savior

 

[heymikey80]

no, I do mean Hebrews 11...

in relevance with Hebrews 11:39-40
39 And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised,
40 since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect.


there is no distinction between the Jews and the Church, but the book of Hebrews does throw me off... quite well, actually

Well, I tend to see this as an elegant confirmation.

Galatians 3 points out that the covenants consist of two things: promises and laws/commands. An unfulfilled promise essentially means the covenant is still in effect. It hasn't been terminated.

 

[hedrick]

I think people haved tried to make this more black and white than it really is.

There's no question that the Bible uses terminology suggesting more than one covenant. Jeremiah's new covenant has been cited. In Romans, Paul says that God hasn't rejected his covenant with Israel, suggesting that he saw a distinct covenant with the nation of Israel, which remains.

But Romans also makes it clear that ultimately we're one thing, rooted in Christ. He speaks of Gentiles as being grafted into the same vine. He also makes it clear that grace applies in the covenant of Israel, using Abraham as a model of grace. Hence it's not really a distinction between a covenant of Law and grace. Both old and new covenants involve both law and grace.

Calvin saw two covenants, but with a good deal of continuity between them. You could just as well view it as a single covenant, with two different sections. I've never been happy with analyses showing lots of different covenants. Yes, God made a covenant with Noah. But this was just part of God's ongoing work with his people. Jewish tradition saw the covenant with Noah as God's covenant with mankind as a whole, as opposed to his specific covenant with the nation of Israel. Acts 15 seems to have some contact with that tradition. But Acts 15 extends to Christians, which are the new covenant. I just don't think you can make neat boundaries around the various covenants.

 

[skullkrusher]

I would like to see scripture that supports the theological position that God sees both the Church and Israel as one...

Tune in to my 'No Covenanters Allowed' thread in a day or three -- I'll be addressing this as part of a pretty substantial post. For that matter, I can just as easily paste the pertinent material into a post on this thread. In the mean time, if you're into books, get a copy of "The Israel of God" by O. Palmer Robertson. His view isn't straight one-for-one replacement theology, but a more moderate version. As such, his position is much more defensible than the more typical version that often gets bandied about as 'the' reformed view -- a view which is open to some significant (and valid) criticisms.

 

[skullkrusher]

25. For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery--so that you will not be wise in your own estimation--that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

I am a dispensationalist and I see this statement “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in;” filling the gap between Daniel’s 69th week and the beginning of the 70th week. Regardless of where one puts the rapture there is yet one week of Daniel’s 70 weeks to be fulfilled.

26. and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."
27. "THIS IS MY COVENANT WITH THEM, WHEN I TAKE AWAY THEIR SINS."

Matthew 24 speaks of a tribulation that is culminated with the Return of Christ. Dispensationalist see those passages and this statement referring to the same event the second coming at which time the remaining Jews are saved.

The gentile time - separate from the time we are in now, Church Age or dispensations of Grace - has one more week (7 years) to be fulfilled.

Verse 28 gives us a clearer picture:

28. From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of {God's} choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;
29. for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

Gifts and callings some believe refer to the covenants made with the Nation Israel. I tend to agree even thought the language dues not specifically use the word covenant. I am not sure how else to apply gifts and calling except to see it as meaning the covenants made to Israel.

When you take all the unfulfilled prophecies and analyze and compare them some interesting results are evident.

Nota Bene : your font settings are not too helpful... I'm getting kinda old and my eyes aren't what they used to be. Well, I guess actually they are... but they used to not be very good either.