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Cearbhall

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I'm afraid you can't legitimately reduce everything to opinion, much as you may wish to.
You may want to ignore their plain and natural meaning, but when you stand before God one day and hear that you've never been a true Christian, you'll come to regret very deeply your "That's just your opinion!" mantra.
You forget that I am not Christian. I believe that the Bible is nothing more than the opinions of human beings who lived before you. Not objective truth.
Quite apart from any personal preference or interpretation of mine, the Bible very clearly, very explicitly defines what constitutes a Christian.
Yes, and as I've stated, not every Christian agrees that something is true just because the Bible says it, no matter how clear it is. That is one particular interpretation of the Bible. And what do you use to back up your opinion that the Bible holds this significance and is true in this way? The Bible. It's circular logic, and many Christians do not accept it.

For example, I was raised Catholic, and they're one of the groups who doesn't go around quoting Bible verses as evidence. The RCC states that only Roman Catholics are in the true Christian Church. That is their interpretation of scripture.
Truth is truth regardless of who accepts it.
I agree, but simply believing something to be truth is not of any importance to those who disagree with you.

Now, I've just realized that this is in the Exploring Christianity board, not the Christianity & World Religions board as I thought, which means I'm technically not supposed to post here unless I start my own thread. So I'll be taking my leave. My apologies for the mistake.
 
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AlexDTX

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And this:

1 John 1:8-9
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
It is no contradiction to what I say. We can sin, but we do not have a sin nature. When we sin, recognize it, confess it and repent.
 
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AlexDTX

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The problem is whether or not all of this should be something to boast of, thinking that because Jesus saves you that you are somehow better than other people.
This in itself, is sin.
What do you have to say about this:
Heb 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.​
The argument of the writer of Hebrews is that the blood of Jesus purges the conscience of sins from believers. Why are you so sin conscience?
 
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AlexDTX

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Well, it isn't a question, I think, of what I believe is meant by "the flesh," but what Paul meant by it. And as I pointed out, he seemed to think "the sin-nature" and "the flesh" were synonymous. In the passage from Galatians 5 he listed the "works of the flesh," which included things like sorcery, selfish ambition, and jealousy. But these are not merely abuses of physical appetites like you mention above, they are sins of attitude, sins of heart and mind.

I wonder, too, how a person from whom the sin-nature has been removed - as you claimed - could be induced to choose to follow the desires of the flesh. If I have no sin nature, the impulse to sin arising from that nature is gone.

But if I have no sin nature, why would I not be impervious to all sinful temptation? A deaf man is impervious to sound, as is a blind man to sight.

I read in Scripture that as a born-again child of God I am already crucified with Christ. (Ro. 6; Col. 3:3; Ga. 5:24). My crucifixion with Christ is a "done deal" the moment I am saved. So, why do you speak of "crucifying self"? Paul wrote to the believers in Colosse:

Colossians 3:3
3 For you died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.


Paul seemed to think all saved people were "dead to sin and alive unto God through Jesus Christ" (Ro. 6:11) as a product of their conversion. Crucifying oneself seems, then, unnecessary (as well as impossible). Paul also explains in the verse from Galatians chapter 6 that you cited that the Christian has been crucified to the World through Christ. It is not something we must do for ourselves.

Galatians 6:14
14 But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.


Do you see why I find your comments puzzling? Paul says here that he has been crucified to the World by the work of Christ on the cross, not that he must crucify himself to the World.

But, Romans 7:22 make it quite clear that Paul is speaking as a regenerate man:

Romans 7:22
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.

An unregenerate man does not delight in the law of God. As Paul clearly declared:

Romans 8:7
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

And:

Ephesians 2:1-3
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.


Paul here describes the nature of the unregenerate person, which does not (actually, cannot) entail "delighting in the law of God." It seems pretty plain to me, then, that in the latter part of Romans 7, Paul was speaking of a regenerate person who was struggling with a "law of sin in his members." And this is reinforced by how Paul describes being taken captive by sin in verse 23, rather than being a willing participant in it as an unregenerate person typically would be.

Selah.
You assume you know what Paul meant according to what you think he meant. It does not take a sin nature to choose to sin. As I pointed out before, Adam and Eve were sinless, without a sin nature - or do you think God made them with sin natures? - yet they were tempted and sinned, which changed them into having a sin nature.

It is true that we were crucified with Christ once. Jesus told us to bear our cross daily and Paul said he died daily. That does not refer to our new birth but our daily choice to deny self.

As for Galatians 6, your point is correct. We are crucified to the world through Christ, but everything we do is through Christ. That does not change our choice to turn from the world.

No Jew was regenerate, yet there are many pious Jews who delight in the law with the inner man. Rom 7:22 is not an admission from Paul that he speaks as a regenerate man in his delight of the law.

A carnal mind is not equal to a sin nature. It is a mind dwelling on carnality. The heart of discipleship is controlling our thought life. Not all thoughts in our mind come from ourselves. Satan is a spirit and can put thoughts in our mind just as God as a Spirit can put thoughts in our mind. We choose what we dwell on, and this is what maturity in Christ is about. I disagree with your division of Romans 7 into two parts: those under the law and Paul struggling in regeneration. That is an eisegesis interpretation on your part.

The bottom line on this doctrine of dual nature is that it diminishes the work of God. Is God so incompetent that He could not get the job done right? Or is He sadistic and wants his children to struggle in life? What kind of Father keeps a child's arm broken and won't let it heal? However, this is not the case. God did succeed with Christ and gave us all that we need. It is a satanic doctrine to undermine the authority of believers so they would live defeated lives not victorious lives. It is the strategy of Balaam to bring the doctrinal women of the world in to seduce the church with idols of the world. And it is an excuse embraced by many believers who don't want to own up to their personal responsibility.
 
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TheBarrd

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Hmmm...I'm not so sure. Certainly, Christians are different - whether or not that difference is perceptible to others. And that difference entails adoption into God's family, spiritual regeneration, and fellowship with God. Is the possession of these things not better than their lack? If so, could it not be said that those who have obtained these things are, at least, better off than those who lack them? I think so.

Selah.
Better off, yes.
Better than?
NO!
 
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TheBarrd

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Remember that ALL have sinned, and fallen short of God's glory.

All includes everyone from the pastor behind the pulpit, to the members of the choir, to the guys who bring the collection plate around, to that sweet little old lady in the third pew with that tiny bald spot right there that your kid giggles at all through the sermon...all the way to the bum on the corner outside...
If anyone were left out, then it wouldn't be ALL, would it?
 
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TheBarrd

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If even Jesus Himself humbled Himself to obedience...even to death on the cross...
Are we any better than He is?
Should we not, therefore, also be humble, as He was humble?

This is not rocket science, here.
 
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aiki

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You forget that I am not Christian. I believe that the Bible is nothing more than the opinions of human beings who lived before you. Not objective truth.

But what is to stop me from responding as you have and simply dismissing your belief about the Bible as mere opinion? If you agree that I'm right, that your belief is just opinion, then it can be dismissed as such. I mean, why should anyone care what your opinion is? There are billions of opinions floating around, after all.

Yes, and as I've stated, not every Christian agrees that something is true just because the Bible says it, no matter how clear it is. That is one particular interpretation of the Bible. And what do you use to back up your opinion that the Bible holds this significance and is true in this way? The Bible. It's circular logic, and many Christians do not accept it.

Well, of course not everyone agrees the Bible is true just because it says it is. I don't believe the Bible is true just because it says it is, either! This isn't an interpretation of the Bible, however, but a matter of logic. As you point out, there must be reasons beyond the claims the Bible makes for itself that bear out those claims, otherwise things get circular. What are my reasons for believing the Bible is truly the Word of God? Here are just a few:

1.) Thematic unity.
2.) Fulfilled prophecy.
3.) Archaeological/historical accuracy.
4.) Survivability.
5.) Impact on cultures and individuals.
7.) Personal experience.

You see? My reasons for believing the Bible is the inspired Word of God are not circular.

For example, I was raised Catholic, and they're one of the groups who doesn't go around quoting Bible verses as evidence. The RCC states that only Roman Catholics are in the true Christian Church. That is their interpretation of scripture.

Actually, that is a contention that has little to no basis in Scripture whatever. The RCC's claim that it is the One True Church is more a historical argument than a biblical one.

I agree, but simply believing something to be truth is not of any importance to those who disagree with you.

So? That has no bearing at all on a thing being true. A true thing is not true merely because I - or anyone else - believes it is true.

Selah.
 
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aiki

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You guys do know that Paul had been a murderer, yes?
Before Jesus knocked him off of his high horse?
And...erm...humbled him?

Yes. And? What makes you think I don't know Paul's conversion story?

If even Jesus Himself humbled Himself to obedience...even to death on the cross...
Are we any better than He is?
Should we not, therefore, also be humble, as He was humble?

This is not rocket science, here.

Um, I don't recall saying it was rocket science...

Selah.
 
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TheBarrd

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Something I learned back in grade school math classes (I was never any good at math...give me words, not numbers!)--
I learned that a fact doesn't need me to agree with it, or even understand it, in order for it to be a fact.

Truth is truth.
Doesn't matter if we believe it or not.
It just keeps on being truth anyhow...
 
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TheBarrd

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Yes. And? What makes you think I don't know Paul's conversion story?



Um, I don't recall saying it was rocket science...

Selah.

Humility...that's what I'm getting at.
A child of God ought to have an attitude of humility.
Like the sinner in the parable of the publican and the sinner...
It wasn't the one who stood up and informed God of all the good things he was doing...and we have no reason to doubt that he was doing all the good things he bragged about...
It was the one who would not so much as raise his eyes...but who beat upon his chest and cried out "God, be merciful to me, a sinner!" He was the one, according to Jesus, who was justified before God.
 
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TheBarrd

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Are we better off because we have been saved by the Lord's sacrifice?
Yes, of course we are.
But let's not forget that it was His sacrifice that saved us...because we could not save ourselves.

Are we better than other sinners who have not been saved?
NO, we are not. In fact, if we know of such, and we are not doing all that we can to bring them to Christ, then we are useless to Him, is it not so?
 
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TheBarrd

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17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth his way preserveth his soul.
18 Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
19 Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud.
 
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TheBarrd

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Not until my studio is finished.. Art thou a prophet?
LOL...nope. I art a Mom.
And an original Flower Child....

Old Hippies never die...we just Rock'n'Roll away....
 
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aiki

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You assume you know what Paul meant according to what you think he meant.

Well, I did make my case from Paul's words...No assumptions were necessary. He was very clear and explicit.

It does not take a sin nature to choose to sin. As I pointed out before, Adam and Eve were sinless, without a sin nature - or do you think God made them with sin natures? - yet they were tempted and sinned, which changed them into having a sin nature.

How did they come to sin, then? Adam and Eve were sinless - until they met with temptation. But if they had no sin-nature, why was Satan able to tempt them?

It is true that we were crucified with Christ once. Jesus told us to bear our cross daily and Paul said he died daily. That does not refer to our new birth but our daily choice to deny self.

Ah. Now this makes more sense. What you seem to be describing is what Paul called "reckoning" (Ro. 6:11). It is not actually the crucifixion of Self but the counting on it to have been accomplished for us already by Christ and then living in accord with this fact. Is this what you mean?

No Jew was regenerate, yet there are many pious Jews who delight in the law with the inner man. Rom 7:22 is not an admission from Paul that he speaks as a regenerate man in his delight of the law.

Was Paul mistaken, or perhaps lying, in the verses I quoted to you from Romans 8 and Ephesians 2? If the unregenerate person is truly "dead in trespasses and sins" and is under the power of their carnal mind which cannot be subject to God and is, in fact, at enmity with Him, then how were there some Jews who did delight in God's law?

A carnal mind is not equal to a sin nature. It is a mind dwelling on carnality.

A carnal mind is the product, or the expression of the sin-nature, is it not?

The heart of discipleship is controlling our thought life.

Interesting. I thought it was an ever-increasing dependence upon and identification with Christ.

I disagree with your division of Romans 7 into two parts: those under the law and Paul struggling in regeneration. That is an eisegesis interpretation on your part.

But it clearly isn't. I made my case entirely from what Paul wrote. I added nothing to the clear import of his words.

The bottom line on this doctrine of dual nature is that it diminishes the work of God. Is God so incompetent that He could not get the job done right? Or is He sadistic and wants his children to struggle in life? What kind of Father keeps a child's arm broken and won't let it heal? However, this is not the case.

I quite agree with you - just not in the way you think God has/is accomplishing our spiritual transformation.

God did succeed with Christ and gave us all that we need.

Amen!

It is a satanic doctrine to undermine the authority of believers so they would live defeated lives not victorious lives. It is the strategy of Balaam to bring the doctrinal women of the world in to seduce the church with idols of the world. And it is an excuse embraced by many believers who don't want to own up to their personal responsibility.

Hmmm...I think you're over-reacting just a bit, here. I have no where suggested that believers should expect to live defeated lives spiritually. I believe quite the reverse, actually. I just don't think the approach you're taking will get them there. And this is because, I believe, you have some wires crossed scripturally. But no worries! Which ever of us has things a bit off, God will sort us out! Thank goodness!

Selah.
 
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aiki

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So, let me ask you, then, Barrd: Is Mother Theresa better than a genocidal maniac like Stalin or Hitler? Or do you think they are essentially the same? Do you think God sees His saints exactly as He sees the unrepentant wicked?

Selah.
 
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AlexDTX

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Remember that ALL have sinned, and fallen short of God's glory.

All includes everyone from the pastor behind the pulpit, to the members of the choir, to the guys who bring the collection plate around, to that sweet little old lady in the third pew with that tiny bald spot right there that your kid giggles at all through the sermon...all the way to the bum on the corner outside...
If anyone were left out, then it wouldn't be ALL, would it?
There is no disagreement here. We were sinners by nature before Christ, now we sin for other reasons.
 
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AlexDTX

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Well, I did make my case from Paul's words...No assumptions were necessary. He was very clear and explicit.
Still your assumption of his meaning.

How did they come to sin, then? Adam and Eve were sinless - until they met with temptation. But if they had no sin-nature, why was Satan able to tempt them?
Jesus had no sin nature yet he was tempted by Satan in the wilderness. Being tempted, or yielding to temptation does not need a sin nature, only a wrong decision.
Ah. Now this makes more sense. What you seem to be describing is what Paul called "reckoning" (Ro. 6:11). It is not actually the crucifixion of Self but the counting on it to have been accomplished for us already by Christ and then living in accord with this fact. Is this what you mean?

In this we are agreed


Was Paul mistaken, or perhaps lying, in the verses I quoted to you from Romans 8 and Ephesians 2? If the unregenerate person is truly "dead in trespasses and sins" and is under the power of their carnal mind which cannot be subject to God and is, in fact, at enmity with Him, then how were there some Jews who did delight in God's law?

Because the inward man is our spirit. The outward man is our soul and body. An unrengerate person is "dead" in their spirit only in that they are connected to God. But everyone has a conscience of right and wrong. Some have their conscience seared so that it is hard for them to know the difference, but that is a minority, imo. Most want to do right while unregenerate.

A carnal mind is the product, or the expression of the sin-nature, is it not?

It is not. It is the product of an unrenewed mind.
Hmmm...I think you're over-reacting just a bit, here. I have no where suggested that believers should expect to live defeated lives spiritually. I believe quite the reverse, actually. I just don't think the approach you're taking will get them there. And this is because, I believe, you have some wires crossed scripturally. But no worries! Which ever of us has things a bit off, God will sort us out! Thank goodness!

Selah.
Agreed. God is the one who will sort us out. However, I have observed believers for 30 years, and most live defeated lives because of erroneous doctrine such as this. Many people think the devil is in Africa or some other far away 3rd world nation. But Satan has his throne in the commercial centers of the 1st world.

This thread is on the moral superiority of Christians. God has equipped us to walk morally superior but the divorce rate of Christians is equal to the world. Pornography is viewed by just as many pastors and believers as the lost. All this is due to erroneous doctrine. Sound doctrine produces life and peace according to Paul, yet Christians are just as fearful as the lost and many are dirt poor because they do not understand what God has given us. This in only one doctrine that I consider injurious to the body of Christ, although a big one.
 
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