Superiority Complex.

[Josiah14]

Would be kind of an odd self-justification, don't you think?

It would be theoretically possible to outwardly display all the virtues out of a desire to prove yourself righteous among men. If, when you are by yourself, you still strive after virtue, that you may not compare yourself to anyone around you and, thereby, become inflated with pride, that is a sign that you truly desire God, and not self-justification.

 

[b&wpac4]

Then you don't believe that human beings were originally created "perfect", "good," or "blameless" (according to the translation), and that, through the power of their Creator's Holy Spirit, they can be "re-created" (re-born) and return to the "image and likeness" of God which they rebelliously lost in the Garden?

I say we are still in the likeness of God. We never lost that. What we gained was a knowledge of good and evil so that we could reject the evil and do the good. Of course, I don't view the Garden as a literal story. It is a story designed to teach.

i am sure you are correct. Would you mind giving me/us a quick education on how a Jew regards Messiah. i think it is important for Christians to understand this, and obviously many of us don't.

The messiah will not be God, the son of God, or divine in any way. He will, in fact, fear God as we are told in Isaiah. He will be instrumental in ushering in an age of universal knowledge of God and universal peace. I don't even believe he will really accomplish this, as only God could do this. He will be like Moses or David, a righteous man God uses to accomplish His will.

There are far more prophecies about the messianic age than the messiah himself.

 

[Dragons87]

They usually did more than "suggest". Most of the time it was "You have become detestable in God's eyes and must repent or (something really terrible) will happen".

But that's different than needing something to be indwelling to do good. Isaiah, in fact, just plainly says learn to do good.

As the first few chapters of Judges show, prophets came and went, and the people's spirituality waxed and waned along with the prophets.

According to Judaism, is there anyone around currently to scream at us (or Jews)?

 

[b&wpac4]

As the first few chapters of Judges show, prophets came and went, and the people's spirituality waxed and waned along with the prophets.

Understand what that is talking about though. It doesn't mean all Jews. It is speaking of corporate Israel. There were always observant Jews and that has never failed. Look at Elijah. When he confronts the priests of Baal, and bests them, corporate Israel still worships Baal. He is in despair and turns to God and says that all have turned from God. God says that there are still those who only serve God.
It's the mistake I see made constantly. The Bible does not say that all Jews abandoned God. There always will be a remnant that remain loyal. They are the ones that carry the covenant with God.

According to Judaism, is there anyone around currently to scream at us (or Jews)?

Classic Jewish thought is that the prophets do not come when the Jewish people do not occupy the land of Israel. But we do have the writings of the prophets that still can hit with a pretty big stick. I know I've read the works and felt ashamed.

There are, however, some that suggest that prophets still do come, we just don't officially recognize them because we don't have a method of doing so anymore.

 

[ephraimanesti]

As the first few chapters of Judges show, prophets came and went, and the people's spirituality waxed and waned along with the prophets.

According to Judaism, is there anyone around currently to scream at us (or Jews)?

i don't think God would mind if i characterized Bono as an heir to the mantle of the Prophets.

ephraim

 

[Dragons87]

Understand what that is talking about though. It doesn't mean all Jews. It is speaking of corporate Israel. There were always observant Jews and that has never failed. Look at Elijah. When he confronts the priests of Baal, and bests them, corporate Israel still worships Baal. He is in despair and turns to God and says that all have turned from God. God says that there are still those who only serve God.
It's the mistake I see made constantly. The Bible does not say that all Jews abandoned God. There always will be a remnant that remain loyal. They are the ones that carry the covenant with God.

Ah. I see. So not something really personal, is it?

Classic Jewish thought is that the prophets do not come when the Jewish people do not occupy the land of Israel. But we do have the writings of the prophets that still can hit with a pretty big stick. I know I've read the works and felt ashamed.

I've heard of that, which I find quite an amusing notion. Was Moses considered a prophet then, seeing that when he was leading from the front not a Jew was in Israel?

 

[b&wpac4]

I've heard of that, which I find quite an amusing notion. Was Moses considered a prophet then, seeing that when he was leading from the front not a Jew was in Israel?

I guess I should clarify that it was once Israel was actually established that this thought comes into play. Yes, Moses was a prophet, and is in fact regarded as the greatest one.

 

[Dragons87]

I guess I should clarify that it was once Israel was actually established that this thought comes into play. Yes, Moses was a prophet, and is in fact regarded as the greatest one.

Forgive me, but that sounds a bit arbitrary: "Prophets can only come when the Jews are in Israel, but Moses (and perhaps a few others) is a special case."

 

[b&wpac4]

Forgive me, but that sounds a bit arbitrary.

I agree, which is why I don't agree with it. It is simply the classical thought.

I don't put any limits on God sending or not sending prophets. That we haven't officially recognized any since Malachi does not mean they stopped coming, or if they have, it is for God's reasons.

 

[ephraimanesti]

I say we are still in the likeness of God. We never lost that. What we gained was a knowledge of good and evil so that we could reject the evil and do the good.

MY BROTHER,

Apparently you don't read the morning paper or watch the evening news.

Following the rebellion in the Garden, humans have, of course, retained some of God's Image, but the Likeness is certainly gone.

Of course, I don't view the Garden as a literal story. It is a story designed to teach.

What does it teach you?

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

Following the rebellion in the Garden, humans have, of course, retained some of God's Image, but the Likeness is certainly gone.

The news hardly ever reports on the good things that happen. When one takes compassion on another and lifts them up, when people volunteer to help the poor, when people band together to stop problems. You look at the world and see all bad, I look at the world and see potential. It is up to us to make it better.

What does it teach you?

It's about responsibility. We are responsible for our actions. We know good from evil and can choose.

 

[Dragons87]

I agree, which is why I don't agree with it. It is simply the classical thought.

I don't put any limits on God sending or not sending prophets. That we haven't officially recognized any since Malachi does not mean they stopped coming, or if they have, it is for God's reasons.

I don't dispute that they've stopped coming. My take on it is because we have no need for prophets now, as:

I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.

 

[Josiah14]

The news hardly ever reports on the good things that happen. When one takes compassion on another and lifts them up, when people volunteer to help the poor, when people band together to stop problems. You look at the world and see all bad, I look at the world and see potential. It is up to us to make it better.


It's about responsibility. We are responsible for our actions. We know good from evil and can choose.

would an incorrupted image of God choose evil?

 

[b&wpac4]

I don't dispute that they've stopped coming. My take on it is because we have no need for prophets now, as:

Problem with that:

The people have not been gathered to Israel. You would be ripping the entire context of the prophecy out in order to make this true.

 

[b&wpac4]

would an incorrupted image of God choose evil?

We seem to again be working with different definitions. What do you guys mean when you say "image of God"?

 

[ephraimanesti]

The news hardly ever reports on the good things that happen. When one takes compassion on another and lifts them up, when people volunteer to help the poor, when people band together to stop problems. You look at the world and see all bad, I look at the world and see potential. It is up to us to make it better.

MY BROTHER,

But what about the world outside your little house? Please don't tell me things are getting "better" and if we would "just try a little harder" we can make our world into a Paradise on earth.

The tipping point was in the Garden and its been a downhill slide ever since. i know for a fact that these things are mentioned a time or two in the O.T.

It's about responsibility. We are responsible for our actions. We know good from evil and can choose.

Knowing good from evil is not the same as being empowered to always do the good and avoid the evil. In fact--although you may be an exceptional exception--many of us find that this knowledge tends to make the evil more attractive.

So you never make bad choices even though you know better?

You have no weaknesses which keep tripping you up by causing you to act against God's will?

Based on my personal history--based upon the biggest lesson learned in my life in the hardest ways possible--i now rely on the Holy Spirit rather than my weak, powerless, sinful self to aid and support me in doing Abba's will.

i certainly admire your confidence!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

But what about the world outside your little house? Please don't tell me things are getting "better" and if we would "just try a little harder" we can make our world into a Paradise on earth.

The world outside my little house is full of potential for good or evil. I don't care if you see it as all bad and just give up hope, I won't. If we worked, we could make the world a better place for all mankind.

The tipping point was in the Garden and its been a downhill slide ever since. i know for a fact that these things are mentioned a time or two in the O.T.

Show me.

So you never make bad choices even though you know better?

You have no weaknesses which keep tripping you up by causing you to act against God's will?

Of course I make bad choices and of course I have weaknesses. However, I work at overcoming those problems, as God told us to do.

 

[ephraimanesti]

We seem to again be working with different definitions. What do you guys mean when you say "image of God"?

MY BROTHER,

An adequate but incomplete definition would be:

Image - the powers with which each one of us is endowed by God from the first moment of our existence (free will, reason, sense of moral responsibility, etc.)

Likeness - making proper use of being in His Image will allow us to acquire God's Likeness, and thus to become deified (become God-like.)

ephraim

 

[Dragons87]

Problem with that:

The people have not been gathered to Israel. You would be ripping the entire context of the prophecy out in order to make this true.

Obviously I'm looking at this from a Christian perspective. But we can discuss this elsewhere.

 

[b&wpac4]

Image - the powers with which each one of us is endowed by God from the first moment of our existence (free will, reason, sense of moral responsibility, etc.)

Likeness - making proper use of being in His Image will allow us to acquire God's Likeness, and thus to become deified (become God-like.)

In the Hebrew, there is only one word which is usually translated image. What you defined as image is what I would agree with. Likeness.. not so much.