Superiority Complex.

[razeontherock]

Sin crouches in the doorway, but I can overcome it!

This is beautiful! Not really in context, but beautiful nontheless

 

[ephraimanesti]

See, this is what I was saying from the beginning. When I quote a scripture I often get rapped on the knuckles no matter what interpretation I'm attaching to it or what practical use I've put it to. There are those who take one look at my avatar and want to grab my bible right out of my hands.

I try to take what little scholarship I have to my study, and I will admit that my scholarship is not what I wish it would be. I went to a fundamentalist Bible College and got a second rate education. Bad decision on my part and one that I am trying to correct by self study and hope to correct more formally some day. What I constantly try not to take along are hackneyed interpretations from either side of the debate. But it's difficult. The interpretations I was taught in my youth hem the scriptures around with obscurity and a sense of taboo.

I don't accept that you are always right because you are a Christian nor that I am always wrong because I am not. Nor do I assume the opposite. At the very least, when I quote scriptures I am expressing an openness to dialogue about it, but there are those who can only express pique that I have presumed to do so.

MY BROTHER,

On the other hand, why do you apply statements which weren't directed and YOU to yourself? i certainly did not have you in mind when bemoaning the fact that some atheists delight in twisting scriptures or wresting them out of context to either ridicule the Bible or setup a "gotcha" to make Christians appear to be something they are not or believe something they do not.

i enjoy your posting and find it overall very balanced, thoughtful, and stimulating. i may, of course, disagree with some of the conclusions you reach regarding a particular piece of Scripture, but i have never thought that it was done with malice aforethought. (There are several other atheists/agnostics who post here regularly who, as yourself, appear to be really looking for dialogue rather than merely using this Forum to attack and attempt to debunk Christian beliefs.) You will however, i hope, admit that all atheists are not so kind to the Word or to the Faith.

Regarding the subject at hand, Peter writes regarding Scripture, "ABOVE ALL, YOU MUST UNDERSTAND THAT NO PROPHECY OF SCRIPTURE CAME ABOUT BY THE PROPHET'S OWN INTERPRETATION. FOR PROPHECY NEVER HAD ITS ORIGIN IN THE WILL OF MAN, BUT MEN SPOKE FROM GOD AS THEY WERE MOVED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT." (II Peter 1:20-21)

So when seeking to arrive at the meaning of a particular Scripture, one must consult the author--the Holy Spirit--to discover exactly what was meant. (If i, speaking only English, want to understand a document written in Spanish, i must consult a Spaniard, que no?) To be sure, many parts of Scripture are written with unbelievers in mind, solely for the purpose of leading them out of darkness into the Light of God's Truth and Kingdom, but once conversion has occurred, baptism effected, and the Holy Spirit acquired, the WHOLE of Scripture is opened to the believers and the correct interpretation provided--for those who are listening--by the Holy Spirit. As St. John writes, "AS FOR YOU, THE ANOINTING YOU RECEIVED FROM HIM REMAINS IN YOU, AND YOU DO NOT NEED ANYONE TO TEACH YOU. BUT AS HIS ANOINTING TEACHES YOU ABOUT ALL THINGS AND AS THAT ANOINTING IS REAL, NOT COUNTERFEIT--JUST AS IT HAS TAUGHT YOU, REMAIN IN HIM." (I John 2:27)

There are no "hidden secrets" in regard to Scriptural interpretation, it is just a case of the Holy Spirit inspiring them and being the only One qualified to provide an authoritative explanation of their meaning. This obviously does not accrue to the pride of Christians, seeing themselves as being "better" than others, anymore than a person who speaks Spanish is "better" than an English speaker--it is merely a case of the Author being the only one qualified to provide an explanation of the meaning of His Work. The human mind is a trickster and cannot be relied upon in spiritual matters beyond the apprehension of the basics.

And, by the way, it was written in a foreign language but I know what you mean.

That's cute!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[sentipente]

When I read what many Christians post about their understanding of the Creator I can't help but think that He made a mistake. If He had waited for about two thousand years He would have found a better group of disciples than those with whom He walked Palestine.

 

[b&wpac4]

If He had waited for about two thousand years He would have found a better group of disciples than those with whom He walked Palestine.

It was Judea at the time. The Jews had not revolted and the Romans hadn't fought back and named it Palestine just yet.

 

[ephraimanesti]

When I read what many Christians post about their understanding of the Creator I can't help but think that He made a mistake. If He had waited for about two thousand years He would have found a better group of disciples than those with whom He walked Palestine.

MY DEAR BROTHER,

Au contraire, mon frère! Our Lord picked those dumb illiterate fishermen and other assorted fringe-dwellers at that time and place because they were blank slates upon which His Glory could be clearly written--especially Peter.

Unfortunately, His more sophisticated and knowledgeable followers today--myself included--are likewise blank slates but with the difference that our surfaces are so slippery that His writing doesn't usually stick too well.

MAY OUR LORD FORGIVE US AND HAVE MERCY!

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[Josiah14]

Sorry to take so long to address this, but I think there's an important point to be made here.

Authority can accrue in (at least) two fashions. It can be imputed or discerned. A skeptic is unlikely to bow to an imputed authority. If you say to a skeptic that this and such scripture must be followed because it was inspired by God and therefore is authoritative, then you are right in thinking that you aren't going to get too far. However, if you can show that the scripture at hand has a discernible authority to it, in that it has proven itself true in practical application or rings true according to the human experience or has been demonstrated to be true by the study of history, etc., then you're going to get somewhere.

Interestingly, if the former is correct, you shouldn't have any trouble with the latter. What this means, if you intend to quote scripture, is that you're going to have to go to a little more trouble than merely doing a copy and paste, dusting your hands off and walking away. You have to explain to your reader how s/he can discern that it is authoritative.

I applaud this statement. It is very true. Too many Christians try to pretend they can understand and prove the Scriptures without trying to live the spiritual life. The fact is, the Scriptures deal with the spiritual life, not the material world. Therefore, in order to even have any evidence to their Truth within yourself, you must first have a spiritual experience. Once you have that, then you can go about providing the evidence, from you own personal experience, that Christianity is true; and since your own experiences validate your claims, it would not be bigoted or arrogant to exhort others to test your claims by trying the spiritual life out and seeing if they do not experience the same God.

In science, claims are tested with physical observations. In religion, claims are tested with spiritual observations. Christianity promises freedom from the passions (known as impulsive behaviors, addictions, or any sort of destructive behavior, in western thought) for those who resist the passions and rely on God for all their strength. The only way to test this is to struggle against your passions and try to rely on God for the strength to persevere and remain resolute in your decision to forsake whatever behavior you are forsaking. If Christianity is not true, this will not work, for the whole Christian formula for being freed from any sins relies 100% on the fact that God actually intervenes and assists you. No God = no freedom.

 

[b&wpac4]

Want? No, I'd rather believe life is easy, and repentance is a nice theory that doesnt need practiced, lol. It's not a matter of want, but more a matter of my personal experience. I struggled against my sinful tendancies in college not so much because I had so much faith in God, but because in order to function in society, I had to struggle. That struggling lead me to Orthodox Christianity, because, quite bluntly, it works. I follow the praxis of the Church, and my passions are conquered. That is the evidence, for me, that Jesus is the God of the Orthodox Church.

Can I ask what you would say if I told you that my faith has allowed me to strive to be a better person? I would say that the goal of my faith is not to remove, to use a Jewish phrase, "evil inclinations" but to use them in the appropriate setting. It's like why I never understand why people say lust is bad. If I lust for my wife, is that a sin?

I try to learn more and understand what I should be doing.

 

[Josiah14]

Thank you for your reply. I'm woefully under-informed as to the traditions of the Eastern Orthodox church, so I value this information. The awareness of one's potential for sin is not a concept I normally would take away from this story. What has impressed me the most about the parable of late is the unknowingness with which the sheep have done the things they have done. They had no idea whom they were serving. The service was done in complete innocence. Apparently it was not impediment to them entering the kingdom that they failed to grasp the mystery that those whom they served were Christ.

(I also find it fascinating that to serve is Christ and to be in need is Christ.)

Bravo, again! This is the Eastern Orthodox (EO) understanding of this parable as well. As we say "Just because you are outside the (EO) Church, it does not necessarily follow that you are not saved. Further, even less does it follow that you are saved just because you are within the (EO) Church."

In other words, we don't make a statement about who is saved an who is not, period. If a pagan, heathen, member of a heretical church, athiest, agnostic, hindu, sikhist, buddhist, etc. (whatever), in innocence, prefers the law of Christ in his heart, to follow it, over the deceptions of evil, to avoid the practice thereof, he can be saved.

However, if a Christian, who has been baptized, recieved the Holy Spirit, and been instructed in the Church all his life rejects Christ in his heart still (that is, he does not resist his sin, but rather, resists Christ so that he might satisfy his sinful desires), then his fate will be WORSE than for one who is outside the Church, for the one outside does so in ignorance.

Consequently, a true Christian, who humbly accepts that he is a sinner, and though he sometimes struggles against sin, sees how often he still falls into sin, to him it seems as if he has never truly struggled at all. This person would not be able to justify himself before God's judgement seat. However, God, knowing the man's heart, and his strong desire to do good, is able to justify the man, even though the man does not see his virtue.

On the other hand, anyone who thinks he has attained any great virtue such that he feels justified for his sins before God, has, in reality, fallen victim to the sin of vainglory and pride, which is the one sin, by itself, that cast Lucifer out of Heaven. Thus, though this man has many ways to justify himself before God, God's judgement will show him to be incapable of receiving the virtue of humility, without which one cannot enter into Heaven. If you consider it, it is impossible to love a person you feel morally superior to, for you will always be judging that person in your heart. If God is love, then God and pride cannot abide in the same place, since love and humility cannot be separated.

What you say, about when you serve another, you serve Christ, is true. It is said by us that every man is created in the image and likeness of God. It is also said that if you cannot see Christ in the most wretched man, then you will neither see God. In as much as you love your neighbor, you see Christ in him; and as Christ is God, you see God; and as God is love, you cannot love your neighbor without the presence of the Holy Spirit within your nous (best known as the core of your being, or your spiritual intellect).

 

[Josiah14]

Can I ask what you would say if I told you that my faith has allowed me to strive to be a better person? I would say that the goal of my faith is not to remove, to use a Jewish phrase, "evil inclinations" but to use them in the appropriate setting. It's like why I never understand why people say lust is bad. If I lust for my wife, is that a sin?

I try to learn more and understand what I should be doing.

The Christian would say that lust is a disfigurement of love. Lust is a selfish desire, which desires to use or abuse some created thing or being to satisfy some carnal desire. Love is an act of giving which cherishes the creation. It is not that evil is redirected, for evil is always ever a twisted disfigurement of God's intention. Sin can be defined as the absense of righteousness (or, even, absence of God), as sin has no existence in itself, just like darkness has no existance without light. Even scientifically speaking, light can be described as a particle, a wave, or both; but darkness is just nothing, it is the absence of light (just the same as a vaccuum is the absense of matter). The human tendancy, after the fall, is to try to fill spiritual vaccuums with sins.

So, in a sense, I suppose a better way to put things would be that, you do not remove evil, but you rather acquire righteousness to fill in the spiritual void in the soul which produces acts of sinfulness. In the Christian Tradition, to acquire righteousness, you must acquire the dwelling of the Holy Spirit within your soul to fill whatever void was there. This process of acquiring the Holy Spirit, God, is called theosis in Greek Orthodox terminology.

Following this line of thought, nobody can do any good without God, quite literally. Thus, we can see that people in this age tend to not be utterly rejecting God, but each person as his/her particular areas of spiritual weakness where a struggle is required in order to acquire Christ. For example, some people, are quite naturally charitable, while others must, for a time, force themselves to charity in order to learn how to accept God and reject the demons in that area of the spiritual life.

 

[ephraimanesti]

Can I ask what you would say if I told you that my faith has allowed me to strive to be a better person?

MY BROTHER,

Scripture tells us that that we are not just supposed to become "a better person" but that we are supposed to become "perfect", as in, "You shall be perfect before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:13)

You sound confident that you can become what God demands of us on your own. You posted a while back--

Sin crouches in the doorway, but I can overcome it!

Do you REALLY feel capable of achieving perfection on your own through your own efforts?

Why, then, the need for Messiah--either the one Christians believe has already come--our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--or the One Jews are still anticipating?

Personally, i must honestly confess that without the Power and Guidance of God's indwelling Holy Spirit, i would not even be potty-trained yet--spiritually speaking. i am curious as to how you seem to be managing so well on your own.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim

 

[b&wpac4]

The Christian would say that lust is a disfigurement of love. Lust is a selfish desire, which desires to use or abuse some created thing or being to satisfy some carnal desire. Love is an act of giving which cherishes the creation. It is not that evil is redirected, for evil is always ever a twisted disfigurement of God's intention. Sin can be defined as the absense of righteousness (or, even, absence of God), as sin has no existence in itself, just like darkness has no existance without light. Even scientifically speaking, light can be described as a particle, a wave, or both; but darkness is just nothing, it is the absence of light (just the same as a vaccuum is the absense of matter).

Definition difference then:
By lust I mean sexual desire, not anything more or less than that.

I imagine we're also going to see the inclination I spoke of differently. The word "evil" in it does not exactly mean evil. It is the inclination that can lead to sin, but if it is tempered it can be used correctly.

For example, why do I work hard at my job? To make money and advance so that I can support my family. That is a good thing, but is driving by ambition. If I overindulge that ambition, it could lead me to step on others on my way up the ladder instead of just working hard and making sure I am recognized for my hard work.

But this is far different than the Christian concept of a sin nature.

 

[b&wpac4]

MY BROTHER,

Scripture tells us that that we are not just supposed to become "a better person" but that we are supposed to become "perfect", as in, "You shall be perfect before the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 18:13)

You sound confident that you can become what God demands of us on your own. You posted a while back--


Do you REALLY feel capable of achieving perfection on your own through your own efforts?

You are pulling one verse and posting it without any context and, by the way, with a translation I don't agree with.
My translation says:
13 Thou shalt be whole-hearted with the LORD thy God.
That's completely different than perfect. God does not demand perfection, that would be silly. He wants us to know when we have done wrong and turn back to Him. That's written all over the Torah and the Prophets.

Why, then, the need for Messiah--either the one Christians believe has already come--our Lord, God, and Savior Jesus Christ--or the One Jews are still anticipating?

You're confusing the Christian concept of the messiah for the Jewish one. We do not await someone to come and die for our sins or, in fact, do anything for our sins.

 

[b&wpac4]

Personally, i must honestly confess that without the Power and Guidance of God's indwelling Holy Spirit, i would not even be potty-trained yet--spiritually speaking. i am curious as to how you seem to be managing so well on your own.

Because we are never told we need a helper to do what is good. God says directly that we can learn to do what is good and reject the evil. He says it as plainly as possible. It's about recognizing when we do wrong, repenting of that behavior, and striving each day to do better than the day before.

Deut 30:
11 For this commandment which I command thee this day, it is not too hard for thee, neither is it far off.
12 It is not in heaven, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'
13 Neither is it beyond the sea, that thou shouldest say: 'Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it, that we may do it?'
14 But the word is very nigh unto thee, in thy mouth, and in thy heart, that thou mayest do it.

 

[Dragons87]

Because we are never told we need a helper to do what is good.

Weren't the prophets sent to help the Israelites return to the Lord?

 

[b&wpac4]

Weren't the prophets sent to help the Israelites to return to the Lord?

They usually did more than "suggest". Most of the time it was "You have become detestable in God's eyes and must repent or (something really terrible) will happen".

But that's different than needing something to be indwelling to do good. Isaiah, in fact, just plainly says learn to do good.

 

[Josiah14]

You are pulling one verse and posting it without any context and, by the way, with a translation I don't agree with.
My translation says:
13 Thou shalt be whole-hearted with the LORD thy God.
That's completely different than perfect. God does not demand perfection, that would be silly. He wants us to know when we have done wrong and turn back to Him. That's written all over the Torah and the Prophets.


You're confusing the Christian concept of the messiah for the Jewish one. We do not await someone to come and die for our sins or, in fact, do anything for our sins.

The definition of Christian perfection is being 'whole-hearted' for God. If you are whole-hearted for God, then every sinful inclination will be rejected in the heart, and every righteousness accepted.

If you clean the inside of the cup, then the outside will be clean, also, in other words. A righteous heart produces acts of righteousness, a sinful heart produces acts of sinfulness. The acts are merely a symptom of the heart's condition.

In Christianity, since we have the Holy Spirit as a helper, if we live a life of continually recognizing when we do wrong and return to God upon such recognition, we will get ever closer to Christian perfection. For some, it is possible to get so close to Christian perfection in this life that they are, in the heart, in constant communication with the Holy Spirit.

 

[b&wpac4]

The definition of Christian perfection is being 'whole-hearted' for God. If you are whole-hearted for God, then every sinful inclination will be rejected in the heart, and every righteousness accepted.

I suppose what I'm asking you is if I am also working toward this goal, and continually improving, what do you make of that?

 

[Josiah14]

I suppose what I'm asking you is if I am also working toward this goal, and continually improving, what do you make of that?

If you do so in humility, and out of a heartfelt desire to be close to the True God, and not for self-justification, then you will probably find salvation.

 

[b&wpac4]

If you do so in humility, and out of a heartfelt desire to be close to the True God, and not for self-justification, then you will probably find salvation.

Would be kind of an odd self-justification, don't you think?

 

[ephraimanesti]

You are pulling one verse and posting it without any context and, by the way, with a translation I don't agree with.
My translation says:
13 Thou shalt be whole-hearted with the LORD thy God.
That's completely different than perfect. God does not demand perfection, that would be silly. He wants us to know when we have done wrong and turn back to Him. That's written all over the Torah and the Prophets.

MY BROTHER,

Then you don't believe that human beings were originally created "perfect", "good," or "blameless" (according to the translation), and that, through the power of their Creator's Holy Spirit, they can be "re-created" (re-born) and return to the "image and likeness" of God which they rebelliously lost in the Garden?

You're confusing the Christian concept of the messiah for the Jewish one. We do not await someone to come and die for our sins or, in fact, do anything for our sins.

i am sure you are correct. Would you mind giving me/us a quick education on how a Jew regards Messiah. i think it is important for Christians to understand this, and obviously many of us--me, for example--don't.

ABBA'S FOOL,
ephraim