sumerians and mesopotamians

ummidrinkcherrycoke · Dec 15, 2003

I'm new to this forum so I don't know if this has ever been talked about.

I was just wondering what you people think about the ancient civilizations of Sumer and Mesopotamia. I find the history on them both to be amazing but often find myself feeling guilty for reading so much on something the bible never mentioned to exist.

So just looking for your thoughts and if you know of any resources that I could use to find biblical truths on the subject that would be greatly appreciated.

pmarquette · Dec 16, 2003

http://ragz-international.com/sumeria.htm
http://ragz-international.com/Sumer-Akkad.jpg
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sumeria
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Mesopotamia
here are a couple of links from a Google search
Perhaps parts of Persian Empire and the reigns of Nebbacanezzer ,
the remnants of the Kingdom of Phillip of Macedonia and his son
Alexander the Great or history of the Roman Empire might give
you some biblical time line or names

TScott · Dec 16, 2003

ummidrinkcherrycoke said:
I'm new to this forum so I don't know if this has ever been talked about.

I was just wondering what you people think about the ancient civilizations of Sumer and Mesopotamia. I find the history on them both to be amazing but often find myself feeling guilty for reading so much on something the bible never mentioned to exist.

So just looking for your thoughts and if you know of any resources that I could use to find biblical truths on the subject that would be greatly appreciated.

I would imagine that the reason the Bible does not mention Sumer is because the Bible knows of the region as Babylon, or even Chaldea, or Chaldees. It mentions Ur many times. Ur was a principle city of Sumer, and later of Babylon. The flood story in Genesis is very similar and probably derived from the flood story in the Sumerian epic Gilgamesh. If you read this account and compare it with the account in Genesis you will see stunning similarities.

ummidrinkcherrycoke · Dec 16, 2003

Thanks. That makes a lot of sense.

JohnStevenson · Dec 19, 2003

ummidrinkcherrycoke said:
I find the history on them both to be amazing but often find myself feeling guilty for reading so much on something the bible never mentioned to exist.

As has already been mentioned, both Sumer as well as Mesopotamia are indeed mentioned in the Bible and provide a background and a setting for what takes place therein. But aside from that, if we really believe that history is "His Story," then we need never feel guilty over a fascination of history as long as we do not neglect those things that ought not to be neglected.

Injured Soldier · Dec 21, 2003

The Bible does mention in Genesis of the "plain of Shinar", the term at the time for Mesopotamia. Mesopotamia is the Greek term for that fertile floodplain between the Tigris and Euphrates. Although Sumer is never directly mentioned, Sumer is a broad term we place upon an ethnically related set of allied and enemy city-states, that was constantly changing. As TScott said, it was later known as Babylonia, or Chaldees, when Babylon became the dominant city-state. Assyria gained it's empire in a similar fashion. In fact, it's interesting to note that with the saltation of the soil after thousands of years of irrigation agriculture, the locus of power in Mesopotamia moved north. Ur once dominated, then to be taken over by Babylon then Assyria.

People relate even more things in the Bible Creation and Genesis story to Sumer than the flood. The Tower of Babel is described as a Mesopotamian ziggurat, much like the ones that the Sumerians placed their temples atop of. The story of how God destroyed it and made different languages describes well (symbolically) the situation of civilization bursting the banks of the Ephrates, eventually getting to the Nile.

But the reason it still takes a backseat in the Bible is that the Bible cannot contain everything. Essentially the OT is a love story between powerful God and his unfaithful wife the twelve tribes of Israel, and these mostly take place in the western part of the fertile crescent. But there is quite a bit on Egypt, if you wanted to get into the history of the Bible relating to Egypt there is a ton of information on that.

Haethurn · Jan 1, 2004

ummidrinkcherrycoke said:
I'm new to this forum so I don't know if this has ever been talked about.

I was just wondering what you people think about the ancient civilizations of Sumer and Mesopotamia. I find the history on them both to be amazing but often find myself feeling guilty for reading so much on something the bible never mentioned to exist.

So just looking for your thoughts and if you know of any resources that I could use to find biblical truths on the subject that would be greatly appreciated.

I don't understand. Why would you feel guilty reading on something the Bible never mentioned?

ummidrinkcherrycoke · Jan 1, 2004

The bible does mention Mesopotamia as was said in a earlier post. The Guilt comes from the fact that any book I read on the subject states that these civilizations were around way before the time of Adam and Eve. The History in the books dont correspond with the history in the bible. I feel guilty because I have a hard time not believing what I read.

Haethurn · Jan 1, 2004

ummidrinkcherrycoke said:
The bible does mention Mesopotamia as was said in a earlier post. The Guilt comes from the fact that any book I read on the subject states that these civilizations were around way before the time of Adam and Eve. The History in the books dont correspond with the history in the bible. I feel guilty because I have a hard time not believing what I read.

You should never be ashamed of the truth. It is possible that the Bible has some flaws in it, but this does not mean that God does not exist. I do not believe the Biblical account of creation perfectly, but I have faith that God created it, regardless of the time that the event took place.

It is perfectly alright to believe what you read, as long as you have faith that God did create the universe, and believe in Jesus Christ, and love him, and do good in your life.

Personally, I don't feel any compulsion to have the Bible verify everything that I hear. All I know is that I love Jesus, believe in him, believe God created the universe, and I try to live my life according to his sayings and to the Ten Commandments.

Word of Peace · Jan 1, 2004

ummidrinkcherrycoke said:
I find the history on them both to be amazing but often find myself feeling guilty for reading so much on something the bible never mentioned to exist.

I won't go over the Biblical accounts, because they've already been discussed. I just wanted to say: don't feel guilty about reading about things that aren't in the Bible. But do take it with a grain of salt - archaeologists and historians are going by limited information in their conclusions.

Have fun!

IrishJohan · Jan 3, 2004

ummidrinkcherrycoke said:
I'm new to this forum so I don't know if this has ever been talked about.

I was just wondering what you people think about the ancient civilizations of Sumer and Mesopotamia. I find the history on them both to be amazing but often find myself feeling guilty for reading so much on something the bible never mentioned to exist.

So just looking for your thoughts and if you know of any resources that I could use to find biblical truths on the subject that would be greatly appreciated.

I mentioned in another thread my enjoyment of the epic of Gilgamesh. A fine bit of ancient mythology. I just read an article in Military History magazine on the conquests of Sargon the Great which referenced some possible biblical references to ancient Sumer. Unfortunately I left it at work, but will try and bring it home on Monday.

elanor · Jan 3, 2004

ummidrinkcherrycoke said:
...I find the history on them both to be amazing but often find myself feeling guilty for reading so much on something the bible never mentioned to exist.

But the Bible doesn't mention most of the world (North and South America, most of Europe and Asia, etc.). Why would reading about the history of a place be a problem just because it isn't mentioned in the Bible?

Haethurn · Jan 3, 2004

IrishJohan said:
I mentioned in another thread my enjoyment of the epic of Gilgamesh. A fine bit of ancient mythology. I just read an article in Military History magazine on the conquests of Sargon the Great which referenced some possible biblical references to ancient Sumer. Unfortunately I left it at work, but will try and bring it home on Monday.

Yes, I can not recommend reading Gilgamesh enough. It is not only of historical importance, but as a literary work it is astonishing. Unlike most other ancient literature, its message can still be felt by anyone who reads it. A lot of wisdom can be found in that epic, and you will certainly be moved by its themes of friendship, grief, and recovery. One of my favorite pieces of literature.

canehdianhotstuff · Jan 4, 2004

mesopotamia i forget the original capital, but later it became Niniveh, and thats where Gos wanted to send Jonah but because the ppl there were so mean and cruel Jonah didnt go, if u know the story he eventually did go. so mesopotamia did exist indeed and it mentioned in the bible,

ex
Acts 7:2
To this he replied: "Brothers and fathers, listen to me! The God of glory appeared to our father Abraham while he was still in Mesopotamia, before he lived in Haran.

sumer however is not mentioned in any versions, i just did a quick search.
need to do searches www.biblegateway.com

IrishJohan · Jan 6, 2004

Ok here's the portion of the article I mentioned in a previous post:

Scholars generally agree that Sumer ceased to exist as a political, ethnic and linguistic entity when it was conquered by Hammurabi of Babylon in about 1760 BC. Agade ceased to exist, at least under its original name. Adopting Sumer's military, religious, and legal systems, Babylonia and subsequent waves of Akkadian conquerors spread Sumer's influence throughout the Middle East. Mesopotamian stories sill remembered in the Old Testament include the creation of mankind, with Eve fashioned from Adam's rib; the Tower of Babel; the Great Flood and the Ark; the Prodigal Son; and the Cain and Abel story, a favorite among Sumerian writers. The city-state of Nashor's patron deity was mankind's original personal god, remembered as the "God of Nahor" (Genesis 31:53). Students of the Bible recognize similarities between biblical laws and Hammurabi's Code in content, terminology, and arrangement, but may not know of their Sumerian origins. Ancient Sumer's moral laws and martial contributions were of paramount importance in developing Western cultures and have made lasting social contributions.
(Military History magazine, October 2002, "The First Great Conqueror", Douglas Mears, p. 52)

brettnolan · Jan 14, 2004

umm...coke,

I have some of those same problems. I quickly learned to only browse many of the forums here because a lot of the "evidence" is presented either from non-christians or from a...I'll call it a "human knowledge" point of view. I prefer to stick to a more literal reading of the Bible. I'll be honest, that's because I don't really KNOW and I don't have the time to buzz off and learn, in insane detail, evolution, greek & hebrew language, or other historical mythologies.

These things tend to distract me from my faith in Christ, so I only casually review them. My feeling is, what's the worst that can happen if I live by a literal translation of the Bible? Will God punish me because I believe the earth was created in 6 days if it was actually created over millions of years? Or because I trust the authority of the Bible over other writings?

I know this bugs a LOT of people around here, but I would rather fit human "discoveries" into the Biblical reality than the other way around.

nephilimiyr · Jan 15, 2004

The Sumerians developed the first written word. It was from their writtings that we know the religions of the pagan world. Much of what is found in their writtings is also very similar to what is found in the Hebrew Bible which has led some people to claim that the religion taught in the Hebrew Bible is actually the religion of the Sumerians. There isn't any orthodox theologian who denies the biblical writers used sources for their compositions but they also say the literary adaptation by the Hebrews had a specific purpose to dispute that which was first written down by the Sumerians.

The biblical writers, the prohets and psalmists mostly, often used texts that claimed something about a canaanite god and then edited it so that what they wrote would extol the virtues of Yahweh, the Hebrew God. For instance Duet. 33:26 and Psalm 68:4 God is described as "riding on the clouds" a phrase taken word for word from Ugaritic religious texts that describe their god Baal. The biblical writers took such texts and changed them to correct the theology taught by the pagan religions. Evidence of this practise by the Hebrews is shown all through the Hebrew Bible.

Much of the Sumerian religion however is shared with the Hebrew religion. Both Religions believed and taught about a divine council with a head god that ruled over all. Many of the "gods" in this council shared the same names and discriptions.

For those who would like to talk about this "devine council" please visit the thread I started yesterday on it. You'll be more than welcomed as it only has 4 views so far! It is in the christians only forum however.
Visit it here...
http://www.christianforums.com/t84540

Key Of David · Jan 15, 2004

All Adamic peoples (caucasians, slavs, and middle easterners) are a high tech people. Always were. These societies existed and prospered because they were descendants of their father Seth, son of Adam (not Cain) and God used them to bring technology to the world. This still flourishes to this day. Any doubts? Take a deeper look around today and with history.

Key Of David · Jan 15, 2004

Even "Atlantis" was mentioned in the bible. It was the Garden of Eden.....destroyed (sank into the ocean according to myth) by the great deluge (local flood) God brought on the area because of the fallen angels' offspring. So much to discover in God's Word if you Look.

Polycarp1 · Jan 15, 2004

Backing the fact that Sumer is discussed though never named in Scripture:

"Ur of the Chaldees" was a knowing anachronism -- something like us saying, "Abraham came from the city of Ur, in (present-day) Iraq." The Chaldeans were the group that took over Babylonia, including the site of Ur, well over 1,000 years after Sumerian civilization, and founded the New Babylonian or Chaldean Empire -- the one featuring Nabopolassar and Nebuchadnezzar, and even Belshazzar (from Daniel).

In connection with the latter, it's interesting to note that he was not the monarch but the regent -- his father was an older man named Nabonidus, who was still around and officially king, and it was Nabonidus who first did archaeological excavations to rediscover Sumer.

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