Sufficient vs. Necessary

[Reformationist]

Neither.

I personally do not want to know not what you believe, I know that already, but I want to know why you believe this is true.

Michelle, you know what I believe about as well as I know what you believe. I have read numerous comments by you about my beliefs that show you don't really know my beliefs.

I can not just accept because scripture says so, because I strongly disagree that scripture does indeed say this.

I have never seen you accept anything on the basis of Scripture alone if it contradicts your church's teachings.

If you aren't willing to consider the possibility that your church is wrong about something why even bother to find out why I believe something?

So I would like to know why you believe the bible says this because there are others, not only Catholics but others who do not see what you see from reading the same bible as you.

For what purpose? Do you think there's a possibility that I'm right and your church is wrong or are you just trying to enlighten me to the real truth of the Word?

 

[geocajun]

Is there a possibility that you will consider something reasonable that contradicts the teaching of the Catholic church?

If it contradicts dogma, nope. Its not worth considering. Mind you that there are schools of thought within the Catholic Church as well, and I do not have any problem expounding on them, but when it comes to contradicting a defined truth, then I am afraid we are on sacred ground at that point.

Of course. I'm not bound to thinking that my church is incapable of error.

Neither am I

I know my views pretty good but if you showed me something from Scripture that contradicts what I believe I would definitely consider what you are contending. I am not going to say that I believe something just because you think your church has all the authority and can't make a mistake but I'll consider what you're saying.

fair enough - are we limited to only what you consider to be sacred scripture, or can we use the same books Jesus carried?

 

[Photini]

Before I continue this with anyone I have a new question. This is not just for Michelle.

Here is the question:

Are you willing to honestly consider what someone else contends about the Word or are you just here to tell them how wrong they are and tell your opinion?

I'm here mainly just to find out what the doctrines are and the reasoning behind them. I take notice of the similarities and differences. I'm not really here to tell anybody how wrong they are....it would be presumptuous for me to even think that I can interpret Scripture. And I have to admit, that while I am willing to listen, I will never accept anything as true unless it is first weighed against Scripture and Holy Tradition together. If it isn't something that's been believed all along, then I am, and my Church is, highly skeptical of it...and rightly so (IMO). I do not consider that as "being bound", but as being protected.

 

[Reformationist]

If it contradicts dogma, nope. Its not worth considering. Mind you that there are schools of thought within the Catholic Church as well, and I do not have any problem expounding on them, but when it comes to contradicting a defined truth, then I am afraid we are on sacred ground at that point.

Truths build on other truths. If someone has an inaccurate understanding of the Gospel it's because, at some point, their understanding of a smaller issue resulted in a greater misunderstanding. If you're of the belief that your church cannot be wrong then it becomes apparent that any discussion you engage in with someone on theological matters that are contrary to what your church dogmatically states is purely for the purpose of showing them where they're in error.

Neither am I

On matters of faith and morals yes you are. You are if you wish to continue participating in your church's sacraments. Or have I been told falsely?

fair enough - are we limited to only what you consider to be sacred scripture, or can we use the same books Jesus carried?

Are you talking about the books that Protestants don't have in their Bible but Catholics do?

God bless

 

[Reformationist]

I'm here mainly just to find out what the doctrines are and the reasoning behind them. I take notice of the similarities and differences. I'm not really here to tell anybody how wrong they are....it would be presumptuous for me to even think that I can interpret Scripture.

And you have showed this godly attitude throughout this thread.

And I have to admit, that while I am willing to listen, I will never accept anything as true unless it is first weighed against Scripture and Holy Tradition together. If it isn't something that's been believed all along, then I am, and my Church is, highly skeptical of it...and rightly so (IMO). I do not consider that as "being bound", but as being protected.

Photini, you're starting off with the premise that your church is incapable of erroneous teachings because your church says so. The problem I have is that there are so many levels of infallibility within the Catholic church that it makes me wonder if Catholics think anyone is ever wrong in the Catholic church.

Your Pope is infallible. Your councils are infallible. The church fathers were infallible. If you start off with those beliefs then the only error you will ever acknowledge is in your own understanding of your church's teachings. If I felt that way I'd just forego debating anything with anyone because I know that I'd come off as arrogant.

God bless

 

[Photini]

Photini, you're starting off with the premise that your church is incapable of erroneous teachings because your church says so. The problem I have is that there are so many levels of infallibility within the Catholic church that it makes me wonder if Catholics think anyone is ever wrong in the Catholic church.

Your Pope is infallible. Your councils are infallible. The church fathers were infallible. If you start off with those beliefs then the only error you will ever acknowledge is in your own understanding of your church's teachings. If I felt that way I'd just forego debating anything with anyone because I know that I'd come off as arrogant.

God bless

One small correction...I'm not Catholic.

I'm not sure what the Orthodox teachings on infallibility are...but I think it only applies to councils. I'll look it up for you if you'd like? I am sure though, that the Orthodox do not consider any man infallible.

 

[Reformationist]

One small correction...I'm not Catholic.

I'm not sure what the Orthodox teachings on infallibility are...but I think it only applies to councils. I'll look it up for you if you'd like? I am sure though, that the Orthodox do not consider any man infallible.

My mistake. Please forgive me.

If you feel industrious and would like to share the Orthodox church's view on infallibility I'd love to hear it. Or, if you have a good link...

 

[Benedicta00]

Michelle, you know what I believe about as well as I know what you believe. I have read numerous comments by you about my beliefs that show you don't really know my beliefs.


I have never seen you accept anything on the basis of Scripture alone if it contradicts your church's teachings.

If you aren't willing to consider the possibility that your church is wrong about something why even bother to find out why I believe something?


For what purpose? Do you think there's a possibility that I'm right and your church is wrong or are you just trying to enlighten me to the real truth of the Word?

Don,

You have to give ma a reason why I should disbelieve the Church. Do you have a reason why the Church is not the true Church?

You say the beliefs go against scripture, but do you understand that I do not think so? I personally think in order for you to believe Calvinism, one has to have a lot of premise theory taught them first in order to see what Calvin sees.

It is the same thing as the Catholic Church, they base their interperations on tradition and one has to know what those are in order to see what Catholics see and Calvin’s base theirs on Calvin, can you please give me a reason why Calvin is right and the Catholics are wrong?

 

[Photini]

If you feel industrious and would like to share the Orthodox church's view on infallibility I'd love to hear it. Or, if you have a good link...

No problem. I'll find you a good link...and look through some of my books...but first my kids and i are goin to eat some dinner....so it'll be a little bit later.

 

[geocajun]

Truths build on other truths. If someone has an inaccurate understanding of the Gospel it's because, at some point, their understanding of a smaller issue resulted in a greater misunderstanding. If you're of the belief that your church cannot be wrong then it becomes apparent that any discussion you engage in with someone on theological matters that are contrary to what your church dogmatically states is purely for the purpose of showing them where they're in error.

There is a difference between "can't be wrong" and "cannot err when speaking from the chair of Peter on matters of faith and morals"
Dont confuse impeccable with infallible.

I am a convert to Christianity, and had it not been for the Catholic Church telling me that scripture was the inspired word of God, I would not have any reasonable reason to believe it is. I am not sure how I can reasonably say that anything in scripture contradicts with the people who gave it to me, and use that to suggest that they are wrong as the book they suggest is the "Truth" has proved them liars. Do you see the problem? If they are wrong in one infallible declaration, how can we then trust any of them?
How can we then reasonably trust scripture at all without the authority of the Church?

On matters of faith and morals yes you are. You are if you wish to continue participating in your church's sacraments. Or have I been told falsely?

you are correct.

Are you talking about the books that Protestants don't have in their Bible but Catholics do?

yes, the books that Luther removed and protestant tradition has kept as a extra biblical doctrine since the reformation.

 

[Terri]

My mother told me that the Bible was the inspired Word of God. That certainly didn't make her infallible.

I knew that what my mother said was true because the Bible said it was true.
2TI 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

My trust is in God--not in any statement made by any human being or any human organization. Having faith in anything other than God Himself is idolatry.

 

[geocajun]

My mother told me that the Bible was the inspired Word of God. That certainly didn't make her infallible.

I knew that what my mother said was true because the Bible said it was true.
2TI 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

My trust is in God--not in any statement made by any human being or any human organization. Having faith in anything other than God Himself is idolatry.

oh boy, well I dont want to cause you to stumble.. BUT your reasoning here is just silly.
Lets say hypothetically that I write on a little yellow sticky note "All writings on this paper are inspired by God" and hand it to you and say "this is the word of God".

Using the logic you provided above, you would have to accept the writing on the sticky note as true.

 

[Terri]

oh boy, well I dont want to cause you to stumble.. BUT your reasoning here is just silly.
Lets say hypothetically that I write on a little yellow sticky note "All writings on this paper are inspired by God" and hand it to you and say "this is the word of God".

Using the logic you provided above, you would have to accept the writing on the sticky note as true.

Are you saying that your writing on a little yellow sticky note would be equivalent to God's Word?

If you have the Holy Spirit living inside of you He testifies to what is and what is not the Word of God--and your little note would not pass inspection.

 

[Reformationist]

yes, the books that Luther removed and protestant tradition has kept as a extra biblical doctrine since the reformation.

Sure, as soon as you can explain to me why I should believe that Jesus supported those books as authoritative.

God bless

 

[Benedicta00]

Sure, as soon as you can explain to me why I should believe that Jesus supported those books as authoritative.

God bless

Because Jesus quoted from them.

I refer you to this thread, specifically to post 8 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=972243&postcount=8

 

[Reformationist]

Because Jesus quoted from them.

I refer you to this thread, specifically to post 8 http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=972243&postcount=8

Post 8 says nothing about a quote from Jesus. There's a quote about Jesus. Additionally, even if early Christians cite literary works doesn't mean they place them on the same authoritative level as the books of the Bible. There are numerous citations of non-inspired books in the Bible. Does that mean that all those should be included in the Bible? That's one of the arguments the Mormons make to support the divine inspiration of the Book of Mormon. They say, "Hey, these other books are mentioned in the Bible so you have no basis for saying our book isn't divinely inspired."

I hope there is more to support your opinion that Jesus cites from these other books than what has been shown.

If so, please share it with me and I promise to read it.

God bless,
Don

 

[Benedicta00]

Post 8 says nothing about a quote from Jesus. There's a quote about Jesus. Additionally, even if early Christians cite literary works doesn't mean they place them on the same authoritative level as the books of the Bible. There are numerous citations of non-inspired books in the Bible. Does that mean that all those should be included in the Bible? That's one of the arguments the Mormons make to support the divine inspiration of the Book of Mormon. They say, "Hey, these other books are mentioned in the Bible so you have no basis for saying our book isn't divinely inspired."

I hope there is more to support your opinion that Jesus cites from these other books than what has been shown.

If so, please share it with me and I promise to read it.

God bless,
Don

Read the rest of that thread from the beginning, and re read post 8 again , all the links provided and you will have your questioned answerd.

 

[Reformationist]

Read the rest of that thread from the beginning, and re read post 8 again , all the links provided and you will have your questioned answerd.

Okay. I'll do that when I get to my casa!

God bless,
Don

 

[Benedicta00]

Okay. I'll do that when I get to my casa!

God bless,
Don

casa?

I am afraid I don't get the Joke.

 

[Benedicta00]

casa?

I am afraid I don't get the Joke.

Okay, I get it now...your house.

Hey I'm from the south, what do you expect?

I hope David Skrip's not lurking.