Reformationist said:
Is it your contention that all of mankind were reconciled back to God by the death of Christ?
Yes it is.
If so, I strongly encourage you to either invest in a good dictionary or find a good dictionary site online because it would quickly become obvious that you don't know what "reconciled" means either.
I beg to differ with you.
Okay. Try answering a question. Do you believe that Jesus death, BY ITSELF, saved anyone or do you believe you had to accept His death for the benefits of that sacrifice to be made manifest for you individually?
I believe Jesus destroyed Satan on a global level in and of itself. You don't think he did?
I do not believe that Jesus accomplished reconciliation for all mankind.
I do.
If He did then all mankind would be reconciled to God,
Mankind in a global sense, he has.
Now let's stop right here, why do you believe that Jesus can not reconcile the world to himself with out it having it depend on us?
which means we would all be at peace with God.
Peace as been made between man and God. Why do you think it hasn't?
God does not send those to hell to whom He is at peace so the view that Christ has reconciled all mankind to God is not only unbiblical it's illogical.
You can tell me it is illogical but what I would like to know is why is it illogical?
God does not send any one at all to hell, he gives us all the grace to be saved, if that is what we want, if we go to hell it is because we sent ourselves.
So you are right, those who are at peace with God he does not send to hell, those who he made his peace with send themselves there because they choose to reject his peace offering.
Three words: Dictionary, get one.
Would it shock you if I said I do not agree with you that I am ignorant of the meaning of these words the way you are implying I am?
That's because "justified" is just another in a slew of words that you don't know the meaning of.
Really?
There is no such thing as a person who has been justified and then condemned to hell.
Cite?
To be justified means to be "pronounced just." That's what it means.
Where in scripture can I find that?
If a person is pronounced "just" and then sent to hell then that means that God has sent a "just" person to hell.
It means, "just as if I never sinned." Original sin that is and
forgiveness of sins. It means you now are justified to go to heaven, it does not mean you, in of itself are a "just" person, your still a sinner, your just a
forgiven one. It means God looks at you just
as if you never sinned. Adam's sin and personal sin and you can be forgiven one and not the other if you choose not to be forgiven of the other.
Your justified, just as if you never sinned...original sin that is and now you are justified to go to the throne of mercy and be reconciled to God when you fall from grace as where before Christ,
you had no way back.
Okay Michelle. What is the difference between those who do and those who don't?
Faith.
Is the difference found in the person, in their response, in their "openness" to the prompting of God?
The difference if found in who wants to have faith in him and who does not.
Or, does God give some a grace to accept His Son that He doesn't give to others?
No, he gives all of us enough grace to have faith in him, but not all want to have faith in him.
Please answer this for me so that I may know in whom you boast.
I boast in the lord because 1# God gave me the grace in the first place, 2# God died for me and opened heaven so I may go there and be forgiven my sins and #3 he gives me the grace to daily ask him for forgiveness and mercy and #4 to persevere in his grace to resist sin in which with out his grace I would fall into mortal sin in an instant and 5# only by his grace I can desire to repent and return to him when I have fallen from grace. It is by grace and grace alone that I am saved, as I just explained.
Sure thing. Try anything between Genesis 1:1 and Revelation 22:21.
Well as usual I looked and there are no citations of this in scripture.
Before we address that do you agree with what I said? Here it is again, "The disagreement isn't about whether He opened the gates of Heaven. The disagreement, at least between you and I, is whether that's all He accomplished by dying."
What he accomplished was opening heaven for us, restoring us to grace and having a way back to God when we fall from grace through mortal sin. Do you disagree with this?
Because unlike you I believe His death accomplishes salvation.
If he opened up heaven for mankind to enter in, how did he not accomplish salvation? I do not understand that if heaven is opened, how can there be no salvation?
If I felt that all it did was accomplish the possibility of salvation then I'd probably believe that He could die to provide the possibility of salvation for someone and they could still go to hell.
It accomplished salvation, how didn't it? If heaven is open for mankind to enter into, then he accomplished salvation, no?
Not the possibility of salvation, but salvation. It is a definite, he opened heaven for mankind, and now mankind has salvation, no?
The world has salvation, does it not, isn't there a such thing as salvation now because of Christ as where before there was only condemnation?
Why does salvation depend on us? Why did he only make it possible if some accept it? Does God depend on our accepting or rejecting in order to give mankind salvation? I don't think so, God can give salvation to mankind if he chooses, he does not depend on someone having to obtain in order for it to exist.
The thing is, I see the Gospel as the Good News.
Me too, the good news that God opened up the heavens for us to dwell for all entity.
The possibility of experiencing the wrath of God is not Good News to me.
Oh, me neither, thank God that he gave us a way back to him through Jesus Christ evry time we fall away into sin.
The possibility of that I could still go to hell is not Good News to me.
Me neither, but I got Jesus and in him I place all my trust. I have no reason to fear hell.
This is why discussion with you is tiring. Baptism IS A WORK.
No it's not, it's grace but if you want to believe that it is something that it is not to Catholics, then go right ahead but
YOU believe it is a work, we believe it is a free unmerited gift from God that justifies us to go to heaven with out having to "do" anything at all to receive it. Words can not describe how unbelievably free it is.
You can't say you don't work for a work.
Break down and explain to me just how is baptism a work? A part from the fact that we have to physically get in the car, drive to the Church and place ourselves around a baptismal font, what else about it is a work? How do
"we" work in baptism? How do
"we" do anything at all to give ourselves grace? How do
"we" remove the stain of original sin from our souls? What exactly is it that we
do to give ourselves the grace and not have it come only from God?
If I had a lemonade stand at the side of the road and the sign read, Free, take one and you parked your car, got out and took one, did you work for the free drink and did you receive it because of something you did or did you receive it and
have it because someone
gave it to you?
Baptism is just that, a sign that says, free grace, come and get it. We do not even have to repent in order to have the grace that baptism gives.
I believe we are saved by grace.
Me too, and I would like for you to explain to me exactly why you feel we do not think we are saved by grace?
I believe we are justified by grace.
Me too, and I would like for you to explain to me just why you feel we do think we are?
You also believe we are saved by grace. You also believe we are justified by grace. The difference is that without your own work of baptism neither salvation nor justification will happen.
Explain to me how baptism is "work? Is the grace that is
given , given to ourselves by ourselves or does it come from God?
Oh sure, you throw in the "God is not limited by the sacraments" statement
Well do disagree, do you think he has limits?
to cover all bases but the Truth of God's grace is that He gives it based on His own purpose and pleasure, not your cooperation.
Cite?
Jesus
clearly said to his apostles "Go make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the father, son and the holy spirit."
If God gave his grace to whom he picked and chose only then why the
command to "
go" "
make" "
disciples" of
all (not many, but all)
nations "
baptizing" them in the name of the father and son and holy spirit?
Oh but wait, he was speaking to those who are his elect, sure, throw that in to cover that verse and the rest of the verses, like he came to save the "world" and he came to save "who so ever" believes in him. etc.
I mean, really how
do you schmoose those verse in with what you believe?
But I did get my answers. It seems that we use much of the same terminology, but with very different theology behind it. I am very young, and unexperienced yet, so I understood quickly that I do not need to come here to debate or explain,...but I come around to ask questions and learn, in order to understand the doctrines and dogmas of my Church more clearly.
