Suffering is good for you. Well, IS it?

[Azureknight 773]

Suffering is good for it makes us realize that we are nothing without the lifting and saving power of God Almighty who is our Lord.

 

[Johnnz]

Suffering is neither discipline nor instruction. It happens because we live in a fallen world.

John
NZ

 

[Tangible]

Jesus actually promises his disciples that they will suffer.

When my vibrant and healthy mother had a stroke which left her unable to walk or speak I was devastated as was my wife. We began to have some serious marital problems, and all this on top of serious financial issues.

At the same time all this was happening, God led us into a Christian tradition that has a highly developed theology of suffering, something that I wish all Christians were aware of.

God is especially known to us through suffering. God has used the theology of the cross has bring me closer to him than ever before - even (and somehow especially) during my times of pain.

Here are some great links if you're interested:
On Being a Theologian of the Cross
Luther's Theology of the Cross
The Theology of the Cross: Cross-Shaped Theology by Todd Wilken
The Suffering Church: A Study of Luther's Theologia Crucis

 

[salamacum]

I'm a bit disturbed by the theology of my friend who has had more than her fair share of suffering. She has on more than one occasion considered suicide.
Most of it is in my opinion due to bad childhood circumstances and bad genes.
But she seems to have a bad theology, IMO.
That is that God has planned for all this suffering since before she was born. She asks what the purpose is of it all. She's gone beyond the "making you a better person". She's now into "empathising with others"
I just have a problem with the predestination thing.

 

[Johnnz]

You are not alone. But that's not the only view being we must have. There are other teachings around.

John
NZ

 

[salamacum]

Sorry Johnnz,

What are you saying?
"But that the only view being we must have"

 

[Johnnz]

I edited my post - I left out a couple of words!

John
NZ

 

[Big Mouth]

I think you can learn things from suffering, therefore making it good for you. However, like anything, you get out of it what you put into it. If you refuse to learn from your suffering then no, it won't be good for you because you will get nothing out of it.

 

[Tangible]

I just have a problem with the predestination thing.

What predestination thing?

 

[christianstoic]

(Didn't want to start a new thread but I couldn't find an existing related topic.)

Is suffering good for you?
Is this what "All things work togther for good" means for Christians.

What's been your experience? Has it been good for you emotionally, physically, as well as spiritually?

Anybody damaged spiritually by suffering?

And what kind of suffering is good for you?

I'd love some testimonies, rather than bible quotes. But if we are going to use the bible, how do we understand the book of Job? I find the story of Job more and more the main pattern for our own Christian walk with God.

This could be posted on another thread to explain why I am almost officially "post-Charismatic".

I think suffering is indeed sometimes a part of God's plan.

I also think that we can find positive meaning in suffering
when it occurs in our own lives. It shows us how strong
our souls are, it teaches us the greatest lessons, and it
suffering is spiritual weightlifting that helps us build our
soul's muscles.

For me, physical pain sometimes can't be avoided. But
mental suffering is usually an option.

 

[Johnnz]

If suffering is part of God's plan the God is a Jekyll and Hyde monstrosity.

John
NZ

 

[christianstoic]

If suffering is part of God's plan the God is a Jekyll and Hyde monstrosity.

John
NZ

I don't think it's necessarily part of His basic plan or intentions,
but I do think that God, being Love, can use suffering which
occurs due to our own free will for a Good purpose.

I don't know. What do you think about the matter?

 

[Johnnz]

Jesus demonstrated what lfe in God's realm, the kingdom of God, would be like when he healed people, had compassion for their distress and wept over the impending consequences of a city bent on rebellion against the Romans instead of recognising the new age He was inaugurating. God does not will or 'plan' suffering.

But, given all that we see all around us, God in Christ, entered into humanity's suffering in his great conflict with darkness and struck at its deepest root - death. Yes, our freedom does mean we create suffering, but that is a consequence of our fallenness, not God's purposes. A child may disobey its parents and experience some hardship as a consequence, such as sickness or injury. But the parents did not plan that. Their response is to embrace the child in their love and security in spite of what happened. So with God and us.

John
NZ

 

[salamacum]

Hello Johnnz,

I'd like to agree with you.
But you've got to deal with the biblical evidence. (if you haven't got to please explain to me your source of authority)
If God doesn't PLAN the suffering for our good, according to Paul he certainly USES it.
And talking of parents, every good parent allows children to 'learn from painful experience'. And doesn't he also use fear and the expression of his displeasure?

Then you've got those unpleasant passages in Revelation. (Being caused to intensely suffer because of sexual immorality or being spat out because of lukewarmness)

My question is whether Christians are too glib about accepting suffering for others believers.

 

[Johnnz]

Nowhere in Scripture does it say that God plans our suffering. Of course God is there when we do and we can learn from it, but that is quite different from saying that God caused, or determined, that I suffer.

Yes God does allow us to reap consequences. But that is the fruit of our bad choices not His predetermination.

Godly fear is more like awe, which is proper given who God is. His displeasure is upon sin as that destroys His beloved creation.

Revelation contains a lot of imagery. We must be cautious about how we understand many of them. Many of the references to fire and judgement are referenced against the Roman Empire and the values it lived by. John was reminding the persecuted Christians that God's purposes would prevail over the existing power of the Romans.

Yes indeed we can be too glib. "God is teaching you something, it is for your advantage, just pray and you will find Jesus there to help you" and similar clichés are too glib altogether when people are in deep pain or distress.

John
NZ

 

[salamacum]

Hebrews 12:7 It is for discipline that you endure. God deals with you as with children, for what son is there whom his father doesn't discipline?
Hebrews 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have been made partakers, then are you illegitimate, and not children.
Hebrews 12:9 Besides this, our earthly fathers used to discipline us and we treated them with respect, and shall we not be still more submissive to the Father of our spirits, and live?


For many Christians on the receiving end they can't differentiate between discipline and suffering.
And the passage above certainly seems to show intention!

 

[Johnnz]

Discipline is not suffering. Discipline has a root meaning related to learning. It is the product of love. Suffering arises from evil, opposition to God's designs for humanity.

John
NZ

 

[salamacum]

Hello Johnnz,

I know we can semantically divide discipline and suffering.
But at least we can say that you can't have discipline without suffering. They are not far enough apart for my points not to carry.
Even an athlete suffers in his training.
When God uses discipline, he uses suffering. (assuming that God plans discipline, which is again what this thread is about)
You see, I'm partly on your side. We don't get 'our just deserts' in this life, precisely because of grace.
This is why I find that revelation passage so difficult.
I really did not like the suffering/discipline I underwent in the first 3 years of my life.
Did God intend that wilderness experience? God intended such for Jesus.
A punishment? Of course not. Suffering? YES.
But I got a lot of bad theology/spirituality sorted in those 3 years. I'm NOT going back to those attitudes and behaviour precisely because the memory of them is so bad.
But couldn't God have just had a conversation with me?

 

[Johnnz]

I don't know what you went through or were taught. I don't go along with what seems an inevitable association you have between discipline and suffering. That is not how I raised my children; I taught (discipled) them to follow sound principles for living. Punishment/suffering was seldom an issue.

No God conversation. Poor teaching can place obstacles to hearing God's voice, especially if there is too much focus on sin, judgement, trying harder to be more spiritual content. We feel to oppressed or guilty to easily accept that God will communicate freely.

John
NZ

 

[salamacum]

Hello Johnnz,

Paul says that no-one likes discipline at the time. But it produces the fruit of the spirit.
Or maybe he says suffering... Johnnz, you might not associate discipline with suffering but Paul does. I need to know why you think he was wrong...
Either way the context is that God at the very least uses that discomfort. It is to his and our benefit.

The Christian course of sanctification is not the result primarily of study or reflection or meditation but challenge and difficulty. See how many new words we've had to introduce in order not to use 'suffering'

Maybe we just need some nuances here. Look how many people of depth of character I've known who are that way because of their personal difficulties.

But what I'm interested in is are the reasons why suffering/discipline/challenge/disappointment don't develop our sanctification.

People have lost their faith because of deep hurt. Are we to say they lacked faith?

David Pawson is fond of linking arthritis with undealt with bitterness and resentment.
All very important in a pastoring and counselling.