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Suffering and Evil

FireDragon76

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This almost sounds like God wanted to get rid of suffering from loneliness and therefore threw us in a world that would make us suffer on His behalf.
Maybe "alone" would be the better term?

Christians don't believe God created the world out of loneliness or boredom.

Also, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity definitely points away from a God that is alone. If one delves into Trinitarian theology and the teachings of theologians and mystics throughout the centuries, then the motivation for God's creation is found in the creative act itself. The same reason an artist paints or a musician plays.

This is the problem with religion. It divides. The Bible is just one book of many...teaching yet another 'version' of who or what a god might be. If you wish to believe in that version, that is anyone's choice. I once believed it. But, there are many 'versions' out there...if one is willing to explore them all...then, who is the wiser to know which 'religion' is the right one?

I don't think religion is any more divisive than other human activities, such as politics. More blood has been spilled in the 20th century over Marxism, which explicitly rejects belief in God, than has been spilled in religious wars in the past 2,000 years.

This in part is why I abandoned Christianty. It would seem to me that with so many options, so many cultures, and people with conflicting views of who or what a god might be...that perhaps, it's all just wishful thinking. We create or gravitate towards a god that we were raised to believe in, or we feel comfortable with.

This just seems like a careless relativism and a limited perspective on what it means to be a Christian. It's definitely not persuasive for me.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Tell me more. But so far it sounds like you're buying into the old Cartesian copout theology, where the soul is valued above the physical, and that even a self really is a soul that can exist without a body. I don't think the Bible really says that, at least not as clearly as our pastors would like. The self is actually a synthesis of the physical (body) and spiritual (soul).

So to you, the consciousness we are aware of right now is not preserved, and some other sort of consciousness, the soul, which we aren't aware of, is what is immune to the death of he body?
 
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quatona

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Sorry, Received, got to come back to this:

I don't really see the relevance of this, given that we're always talking about assumptions with metaphysical stuff given the unfalsifiability involved in its premises.
While I completely agree that the beauty of the supposedly "metaphysical" lies in the very fact that we can create it so that it perfectly matches our needs, in a discussion I still find it somewhat unsatisfactory how easily you get to determine what God can´t do. If it´s that easy, I could simply say "Yes, God can create spiritual beings".
 
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quatona

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If one delves into Trinitarian theology and the teachings of theologians and mystics throughout the centuries, then the motivation for God's creation is found in the creative act itself. The same reason an artist paints or a musician plays.
What is the reason an artist paints or a musician plays?
 
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So to you, the consciousness we are aware of right now is not preserved, and some other sort of consciousness, the soul, which we aren't aware of, is what is immune to the death of he body?

In some sense, I think we are our consciousness, and in that sense becoming aware of ourselves in the sense of becoming aware of our consciousness is like (as Alan Watts puts it) "biting my own teeth." But not quite. Kierkegaard would consider consciousness the synthesis (constituted and sustained by spirit, or freedom) between the soul and body.
 
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Sorry, Received, got to come back to this:


While I completely agree that the beauty of the supposedly "metaphysical" lies in the very fact that we can create it so that it perfectly matches our needs, in a discussion I still find it somewhat unsatisfactory how easily you get to determine what God can´t do. If it´s that easy, I could simply say "Yes, God can create spiritual beings".

Well, first note that I'm not processing things purely pragmatically. I'm saying that we can make assumptions which might or might not be true, and I think a case can be made for them being true, but it's very subtle given this type of "knowledge" doesn't rest on as strict a foundation as other forms of knowledge.

As for how easily I'm speaking about what God supposedly can or can't do, keep in mind that I'm appealing to the same Bible as other people do, as well as the same metaphysical restrictions brought on by a Western, monotheistic, creator deity. In this sense, I'm very limited in how I can speak of God. There are only a few starting points, and I take 1, 2, and 3, whereas common Christendom might take 2, 3, and 5.
 
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Deidre32

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Christians don't believe God created the world out of loneliness or boredom.

Also, the Christian doctrine of the Trinity definitely points away from a God that is alone. If one delves into Trinitarian theology and the teachings of theologians and mystics throughout the centuries, then the motivation for God's creation is found in the creative act itself. The same reason an artist paints or a musician plays.



I don't think religion is any more divisive than other human activities, such as politics. More blood has been spilled in the 20th century over Marxism, which explicitly rejects belief in God, than has been spilled in religious wars in the past 2,000 years.



This just seems like a careless relativism and a limited perspective on what it means to be a Christian. It's definitely not persuasive for me.

You might be surprised to know that more atheists contribute and donate of their time and money, and more often, to charities than Christians. And the divorce rate is far lower amongst atheists than Christians. So please enlighten me as to what exactly does it mean to be a Christian? lol Stats don't lie.

And I'm not trying to convince you of my stance, just sharing my own perspective and personal view.
 
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quatona

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Well, first note that I'm not processing things purely pragmatically. I'm saying that we can make assumptions which might or might not be true, and I think a case can be made for them being true, but it's very subtle given this type of "knowledge" doesn't rest on as strict a foundation as other forms of knowledge.
That´s ok. What I have a problem with: You didn´t even try to make a case for "God can´t create purely spiritual stuff". I guess I am particularly intrigued by this claim because - as opposed to most every other Christian defense point that is presented as though it were axiomatic or something - this is a completely new one to me.

As for how easily I'm speaking about what God supposedly can or can't do, keep in mind that I'm appealing to the same Bible as other people do, as well as the same metaphysical restrictions brought on by a Western, monotheistic, creator deity. In this sense, I'm very limited in how I can speak of God. There are only a few starting points, and I take 1, 2, and 3, whereas common Christendom might take 2, 3, and 5.
And "God can´t create purely spirtual stuff" is one of those few starting points?
 
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That´s ok. What I have a problem with: You didn´t even try to make a case for "God can´t create purely spiritual stuff". I guess I am particularly intrigued by this claim because - as opposed to most every other Christian defense point that is presented as though it were axiomatic or something - this is a completely new one to me.


And "God can´t create purely spirtual stuff" is one of those few starting points?

I think this is surprising to you because you're used to Christians as Cartesian folks, who believe the soul is "in" a body and therefore occupies space and is impermeable. The problem with this, though, is that the body has itty bitty holes in it a few billion times over at a microscopic level, which means the soul can't find an impermeable home. The rational conclusion from this is that 1) the soul isn't physical, which makes the body redundant, or 2) the soul isn't limited in space or time, which would mean that it's eerily like God: omnipresent and transcending the physical universe. This shift in ontology changes things.

One of the things it changes is the conception of the self: the self isn't "just" a soul with spatial limitations "stuck" inside a body, but in some sense the soul *is* God (or, if you will, the body of God). (This omnipresent soul which is in some sense God might be connected with the Logos, or that which upholds all physical things at every moment.) It's the body that is limited spatially. The self would be a synthesis of infinity (soul) and finitude (body), exactly what Kierkegaard holds in The Sickness Unto Death. Whereas with the Cartesian conception the soul is "in" the body, this perspective means the body is "in" the (universal) soul (God).

Another thing it changes is how we understand what God can create. If the soul is infinite and part of God, it isn't really created. The physical world is created "around" or "within" the soul (so that the physical universe is "inside" the soul much like, metaphorically speaking, water is inside a container). So if the soul is an uncreated infinity that's spiritual (spiritual here referring to the nonphysical rather than the freedom or power of the individual), the only thing that can be created is physical stuff.

All this stuff seems at first glance to be totally New Age uselessness. But it's, IMO, pretty strictly following from the premises we're given when thinking of God as a spiritual being.
 
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quatona

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I think this is surprising to you because you're used to Christians as Cartesian folks, who believe the soul is "in" a body and therefore occupies space and is impermeable. The problem with this, though, is that the body has itty bitty holes in it a few billion times over at a microscopic level, which means the soul can't find an impermeable home. The rational conclusion from this is that 1) the soul isn't physical, which makes the body redundant, or 2) the soul isn't limited in space or time, which would mean that it's eerily like God: omnipresent and transcending the physical universe. This shift in ontology changes things.

One of the things it changes is the conception of the self: the self isn't "just" a soul with spatial limitations "stuck" inside a body, but in some sense the soul *is* God (or, if you will, the body of God). (This omnipresent soul which is in some sense God might be connected with the Logos, or that which upholds all physical things at every moment.) It's the body that is limited spatially. The self would be a synthesis of infinity (soul) and finitude (body), exactly what Kierkegaard holds in The Sickness Unto Death. Whereas with the Cartesian conception the soul is "in" the body, this perspective means the body is "in" the (universal) soul (God).

Another thing it changes is how we understand what God can create. If the soul is infinite and part of God, it isn't really created. The physical world is created "around" or "within" the soul (so that the physical universe is "inside" the soul much like, metaphorically speaking, water is inside a container). So if the soul is an uncreated infinity that's spiritual (spiritual here referring to the nonphysical rather than the freedom or power of the individual), the only thing that can be created is physical stuff.

All this stuff seems at first glance to be totally New Age uselessness.
Don´t worry, mumbo-jumbowise it can´t get much worse than mainstream Christian doctrine, can it? ;)

I´m afraid you grossly oversestimate my literacy - I wasn´t aware of the idea that the soul was looking for an impermeable container and hoped to find it in the human body.

Anyway, I think I roughly get the way you conceptualize this stuff.
At some points it doesn´t seem coherent to me, at some points I seem to find the distinction between god and not god rather arbitrary, and the "water inside a container" analogy appears to be contrary to the description.
Whatever. You didn´t write all this to get a critique of your metaphysical conceptualization, but merely to show me how "God can´t create spiritual stuff" is founded in it.
Thanks.
 
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quatona

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Thanks.
 
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theophilus777

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Here's the problem with some people. Earlier today, I showed Jeremy that Yahweh has no problem with interrupting and manipulating free will (I gave the example of Pharaoh). Yet, Jeremy continues right along with his previous belief, as if being shown something completely contradictory had zero effect. It's a curious thing the human brain.

Ya, except that's not what happened with Pharaoh. Funny thing about contradictory evidence, it has to be correct or it doesn't count.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Ya, except that's not what happened with Pharaoh. Funny thing about contradictory evidence, it has to be correct or it doesn't count.

It is one thing for him to disregard it as not being evidence, but it is really weird when someone doesn't even react to it as if it doesn't exist
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Please know that I'm not condoning suffering or evil, nor am I even equating the two in this OP (I think they're extrinsically relatable but not intrinsically relatable). I'm not saying the suffering of children is good, or that natural disasters serve some sort of intrinsic function.

1) Any good that comes from suffering or evil is extrinsic to suffering or evil. That is, evil or suffering in themselves are bad, but they can be turned into good depending on the perspective that frames them during and after the instances of evil or suffering. "For those who love God all things work together for good..." (Romans 8:28, ESV). Note the "for those who love God" part. This doesn't meant that people who don't know God can't get a better perspective of things after the fact and grow by experiencing an evil or instance of suffering that's bad in itself, just that there's something about an authentic (i.e., not just conceptual) relationship with God that involves getting the full deal of advantages from these bad things. What this also means, theologically speaking, is that God can hate evil but still use its inevitability to help his creatures. Another point is that evil can be understood as a negation (the negation of good), and our natural sinful state is a negation as well (the negation of how we should be in terms of having faith and being in a continuous, full relationship with God); from this, we can understand the "good" that comes from evil as the negation of a negation, rather than a "positive good" like when we see something beautiful. The "use" of evil in a good way is neither an intrinsic good nor a positive good, but a double negation equivalent to good, necessary only because we have sinful natures. "Why did God create people with sinful natures?" Because sin is inevitable with human freedom; you can't have a self without free will, and so God can't logically create selves without an inclination to sin.

2) Suffering can be useful in that it helps us value things we naturally don't value. I had a health breakdown five months ago. It was awful. But the biggest thing I took from it is an overwhelming appreciation for very basic things, and I think this appreciation is there in perfect proportion to how much I thought I wouldn't make it through this crisis. That is, to the degree that I thought I would lose everything, I gained a newfound appreciation for things. The big point is that without this sense of suffering, I would not have been capable of valuing these things -- sunsets, rainy weather, an angry wife, crazy coworkers, ad infinitum. What this means is that value is born from (a sense of) loss and the suffering and possible evil involved in loss. And without value, things are just things, scenery, taking up space.

3) Suffering results in "soul building," to use philosopher John Hick's phrase, in that only in a world of suffering is there the possibility of growth that would otherwise not take place without it. So without suffering, you can imagine a person being completely spoiled and unprepared for life given unrealistic expectations that things will be fine, which will obviously only set the person up for personality problems or even psychopathy if they don't get to experience and even embrace the suffering (and possibly overlapping evil) that's involved in life.

4) Suffering is a necessary result of human freedom, or free will. We know how this applies to most situations, but it also applies very importantly on a systemic level, which influences things we would otherwise think are just naturally there, such as children who grow up hungry or even natural disasters. We're responsible for the negative systems that influence these examples. With hungry children we're responsible because we're incredibly disproportionately greedy and materialistic, which takes away from our inclinations to altruism which would otherwise resolve this problem; and with natural disasters we've piled up economic externalities in terms of pollution which influence negative weather patterns leading to more natural disasters, and poor people are much more likely to be exposed to areas much more prone to natural disasters, like the poor in India who are much more susceptible to flooding.

5) From a theological perspective, you have the possibility of a judgment, which will punish those who misuse their freedom (i.e., everyone to varying degrees) which result in negative outcomes (suffering, pain, poverty, etc.) for different people (and animals?) in the world, while those who have suffered will be elevated over those who have inflicted suffering. From a purely logical standing, this makes a theistic world with evil that can't be explained better than an atheistic world where evil is just a brute fact, given that at least in a theistic world you have the possibility of reconciliation and restitution of all things, which you don't have in an atheistic universe.

IMHO, anyways.

Suffering and evil are the ever-present reminders that this is a fallen world, that we are fallen beings, badly in need of salvation. The world as we experience it daily is.......wrong. We have the knowledge of good and evil, and choose to do evil to ourselves and others as our primary modus operandi. The grand contradiction of course is that we don't believe we're doing anything wrong, and that it's just our 'bad luck' that we are the victims of so much misfortune.
 
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theophilus777

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It is one thing for him to disregard it as not being evidence, but it is really weird when someone doesn't even react to it as if it doesn't exist

I agree, kinda sorta. Look at Obama when the birther movement got into full swing. He did exactly what you say; disregarded it as not being evidence, and also reacted as though it didn't exist. I find this to be much more important than whatever might be on his actual birth certificate. The attitude just stinks, for someone in political office, who campaigned on the promise of having the most transparent administration the US had ever seen. That's really what irked me about it. I plead stupid to not connecting the dots and realizing this meant Obama had no intention of being transparent. I should have known, and not been surprised when that proved true.

Back on topic I also plead hypocritical to sometimes seeing something this wrong here on CF, and simply choosing not to respond to it as though it didn't exist. Even if it's an element in a post I respond to. Then again I'm not running for public office ... but I can understand the poster in question totally ignoring the utter folly of what was said. It makes the birther movement look like geniuses by comparison, at least coming from someone who professes the things he does, like knowledge of Scripture and so on.
 
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