Submission, Housework, Laziness, BPD, Marriage questions/discussion

[jmz]

@Endeavourer out of interest what are your views on feminism? My wife absolutely HATES feminism and if not for her i probably wouldnt have come to see how damaging and destructive it is. I give her high praise for her deep diving and study into the subject. As a result we have discovered the likes of Suzanne Venker and the girls from "Desiring God". Are these also on your naughty no-no list?

TBH it feels a bit like you are here to try and drive a wedge between us by suggesting things that are just not the case... good thing is its likely to backfire . To think i would come across this kinda "advice" in a christian forum!

 

[Endeavourer]

Hi jmz,

Thank you for reading through all of that! I'll group responses under certain headers, below:

The part you are ignoring is BPD and major issues, profressional diagnosed by one of the world's leading experts and therapist on BPD...

I had understood your wife had been diagnosed with BPD, so I never said you were disrespectful for acknowledging or for any mention of her BPD diagnosis. WRT the BPD diagnosis, it's 100% her responsibility to take any prescribed medication on schedule so she can be the best version of herself possible. It is each spouse's responsibility to behave as marriageable as they are physically capable of behaving. Does she have a prescription that, when taken, makes things better?

Disrespect of Diagnosing Your Spouse: My comments about disrespect on your part for diagnosing quoted other (not BPD specific) comments you made, such as the following, which I re-quote below. New comments are blue.

My wife struggles from abandonment and lack of attachment from quite possible a young age and i think this has had major implications on our marriage.​

My comment was: Unless a professional has diagnosed her as such, this is a massively disrespectful viewpoint of your wife.​

Once you (or she) fills your (or her) head with a self-generated diagnosis then the ability to problem solve together is limited to inside of how the diagnosis narrowed your viewpoint(s). It's like diagnosing yourself with cancer from google and then not being able to consider that your pain might just be constipation.

Additionally, these narrowing, option limiting viewpoints are also quasi-diagnoses that I noted were disrespectful of your wife, unless she has specifically said these words.

Basically with all her hate towards feminism it seems she cant help align with some of the feminist behaviour that culture has surrounded her in. Ideologically we are together. But practically.... we arent....​

And then you hear women complain about the patriarchy.....​

Etc etc, there were several other comments that I pulled out as being disrespectful as well. Re-reading those areas of my post, now that you are realizing I was not referring to BPD might be more helpful.

Arguing: It doesn't always feel like it, but it takes two to argue. You have the power to stop your part of the argument/anger which then makes it not an argument anymore.

If she responds in anger or to argue, you can always make the same rote statement along the lines of "I don't want to win at your expense by arguing to get my way. Let's discuss this with mutual respect." If she pushes the argument with more anger or disrespect, you can say "I want to discuss this respectfully, so you can find me at <location> when you are ready to talk." Then, leave the room/car/gathering.

Rinse, repeat until she comes to expect this reaction if she is initiating an argument.

Words said in arguments are such MASSIVE lovebusters and can't be unsaid. The situation itself regardless of the specific words used is also a terrible love buster. Your actions in this regard can protect your marriage, your wife and yourself, which in the end protects your daughter.

The person I learned most from has observed 10,000's of marriages and found that marriages survive affairs better than they survive anger. Both of you are expressing anger in these arguments; you can lead your wife out of doing these arguments as I described above, and by dropping the angry responses to her anger.

Abuse can be an upward spiral: one partner is abusive, so the other escalates, so the other escalates, so the other escalates etc etc. One person has the power to stop the spiral at its root.


JMZ, did your wife really say she was not sane? Or an adult? Because you replied that she said those words, if I understood your reply correctly.

3. Marriage - honestly dont know what to say but ...help? Any ideas? Suggestions? "Have you sat down and discussed abc...." btw is not a solution. This requires two reasonably stable, sane people who can have adult conversation.

Implying your wife is not reasonably sane (diagnosing) or an adult is disrespectful. If I can hear the disrespect, trust me, your wife can too.

These are her words as well...but thank you for your incorrect assumptions.​

Leader Card:

Anger outbursts not so much. Leader card primarily when it comes to her wanting to spend 1000s of dollars on things or other economically related things that later are blamed on me that i didnt stand my ground when she wanted to compusively spend.

Nothing of that magnitude should ever be spent in a marriage unless you are both enthusiastic about it. You can simply say (and then repeat as needed) "I'm not enthusiastic about that purchase" or "I'm not enthusiastic about that in our budget this month", etc etc although you don't have to explain or justify why you are not enthusiastic. If elaborating in any way initiates an argument, just stick with 'I'm not enthusiastic about getting that."

Make sure that your comments are addressing what YOU'RE enthusiastic about without any judgment towards her or her desires such as (exaggerated example) "That's a ridiculous purchase. You're just being compulsive again. No way!" Or "Why do you want another one when we already have six of them. Your overspending is the reason <whatever problem she blamed on you>.!!!"

Always just speak to your enthusiasm, and not her mindset or flaws or history or diagnosis, etc etc.

If you pull the "leader card" out, it will often be experienced by the wife as a selfish demand where you are benefitting at her expense.

TBH most of your post is rather disrespectul or more i should say HIGHLY assumptive. But its understandable. Most people have a one sided view of things.

Hopefully once you realize that I never said you were disrespectful about acknowledging or referring to BPD diagnosis, my post will seem less assumptive. It is kind of one sided, however, because YOU are the one here about the situation. And you can only affect your side of the street.

However, the observations you are hopefully most happy about are these things that are within your power to effect. Those are the focus of all of my comments, both in this post and the last.

You are pulling from your VERY different scenario (and possibly culturally different as well) and trying to apply it to a stranger.

Would you agree that the things I discussed above would not endear a husband to a wife in any background or culture?

 

[Paidiske]

WRT the BPD diagnosis, it's 100% her responsibility to take any prescribed medication on schedule so she can be the best version of herself possible. It is each spouse's responsibility to behave as marriageable as they are physically capable of behaving. Does she have a prescription that, when taken, makes things better?

OP has said that his wife is not open pharmaceutical treatment. So effectively they're trying to deal with everything else with unmedicated severe mental health issues.

 

[Endeavourer]

I primarily got round to reading these books because my wife is in to them. The irony when we think about your original post... We both found them very good and are both in agreement about it..... Perhaps try and be a little less assumptive please your massive bias is showing.

Yes, the book Love and Respect does seem to be very good and sounds biblical.

However, from your posts I did not sense that you followed the two most damaging components of it. Thus, it doesn't surprise me that you didn't find the book as difficult as other people have. Your instincts were better than the author's.

#1: Perhaps you did not follow its advice of addressing your wife "I didn't feel respected just now" when you don't like something, to enforce that she must always obey and does not agency in your marriage.​

​

#2: Or, perhaps you did not push through with your "Biblical" right to receive sex, even if it was only duty sex (which seems to be the only kind he knows about) every time you felt like you wanted it. Perhaps in spite of all of his writings about sex, you personally realized that it isn't only "a need you have that she doesn't have", and perhaps you didn't really implement your "rights' for sex upon demand under the book that literally.​

These components simply aren't Biblical. #1: Leadership in the believer's economy is not lording over. #2: The Bible's reference to sexual desire, found both in Song of Solomon and 1 Cor, are mutual. If anything, the Bible references that sex is the WOMAN'S right, but I think that mostly had to do with women being so disadvantaged if something happened to their husband and the didn't have a son, in that day.

Women whose husbands do implement these elements of the book into the marriages are often left in hopeless despair. To date I haven't found a single troubled marriage that was benefited by the practice of these two elements. I can often read between the lines in posts if a husband has tried to push those two things into the marriage as his "Biblical" right, and in pretty much all cases when I ask if they are practicing that book I have been correct.

Marriage by design should not build in the despair of one partner, nor is the Lord an author of confusion!

 

[Endeavourer]

OP has said that his wife is not open pharmaceutical treatment. So effectively they're trying to deal with everything else with unmedicated severe mental health issues.

Thank you for pointing this out, Paidiske!

It really is the wife's responsibility to find something that treats her situation, to her husband's satisfaction that it is being treated as effectively as possible with technology that's available. Each spouse is responsible for themselves being as mariagable as possible.

The things I mentioned are what @jmz can change, but without his wife addressing the underlying problem, he may not be able to resolve the overall situation.

 

[jmz]

Lots of stuff to respond to. But honestly i try not to spend too much time online. I might leave it. I would suggest you attempt the socratic method and make it more a natural go to. You will only have to say about 1/4th or less of what you are saying now if you used this approach . A lot more efficient. Especially considering theres not a lot of hours in the day! And ideally we live our lives not online...
Nothing thats been said is terribly new or revelatory, we are not new to this situation as you can imagine! looking for some real novel, original ideas. I think also you would need to get some deep understanding of BPD before carrying on.

 

[Endeavourer]

"Desiring God". Are these also on your naughty no-no list

The "Desiring God" ministry has been pretty tough on women in poor marriages.

For example, what do you think of John Piper's advice to this wife? I won't characterize it but will let you draw your own conclusions.

I don't recall the statistic on how many women are killed upon their husband's first "smack", but way too many.

JP did retract this answer partially, but only after an outcry that continued for several years.

 

[Endeavourer]

"Desiring God". Are these also on your naughty no-no list?

Also, just for reference, JP's doctrines about manhood and womanhood and wifely roles & such didn't work for his own marriage, as he took a sabbatical from the pulpit to work on his marriage.

I appreciated the humility he displayed with the transparency on why he was taking a sabbatical.

To my recollection, he never resumed the same pastoral role upon completing his sabbatical.

 

[jmz]

The "Desiring God" ministry has been pretty tough on women in poor marriages.

For example, what do you think of John Piper's advice to this wife? I won't characterize it but will let you draw your own conclusions.

I don't recall the statistic on how many women are killed upon their husband's first "smack", but way too many.

JP did retract this answer partially, but only after an outcry that continued for several years.

Honestly i dont know a lot about JP, my wife is into Desiring God and as a bit of molinist i think his philosophy in general is reasonably weak (not that unusual for a lot of theologians).

Do you have the statistic?

 

[jmz]

Also, just for reference, JP's doctrines about manhood and womanhood and wifely roles & such didn't work for his own marriage, as he took a sabbatical from the pulpit to work on his marriage.

I appreciated the humility he displayed with the transparency on why he was taking a sabbatical.

To my recollection, he never resumed the same pastoral role upon completing his sabbatical.

Hmm that logic doesnt make sense. Solomn had great advice/wisdom and the like but didnt live by it. Moreover there are so many other factors that can cause imperfect people to fail at basically what is good advice. So your logic kinda falls apart there.

 

[Endeavourer]

I don't recall the statistic on how many women are killed upon their husband's first "smack", but way too many.

Do you have the statistic?

Will a statistic justify the advice he provided in the video?

 

[Endeavourer]

Good morning @jmz

I hope you & family had a wonderful NY.

I'm sorry you aren't interested in what I wrote to you. In spite of your challenging situation, you are contributing to your difficulties.

Per your own descriptions, you've been disrespectful to your wife and have also demonstrated disrespect to me as well. I don't care about your disrespect to me, but the disrespect towards your wife is not helping your marriage.

Meaningful change doesn't often happen until a person can identify/describe your behaviors to yourself in words. Reactive instincts can be analyzed and controlled once your thoughts have words for what is happening.

For example, the average anger outburst follows a predictable, mutually abusive pattern:​

1) Spouse A wants to do or buy something. (May or may not be presented with disrespect.)​

2) Spouse B doesn't want to do or buy that. Spouse B may respond disrespectfully.​

3) So, Spouse A makes a selfish demand (something they want even if the other spouse doesn't want it) or engages in independent behavior (something A wants to do but B doesn't want A to do it), perhaps answering disrespect with more disrespect.​

4) Spouse B responds with more disrespectful judgment or anger.​

5) A responds to #4 with more disrespect and anger.​

6) B responds to #5 with another anger outburst, etc etc until the argument is won by one spouse at the other's expense.​

​

If spouse B understands this progression, he/she can analyze his/her words in response to #1 to ensure they are productive and not disrespectful, so often the argument would not proceed to #2.​

​

If the statement in #1 was disrespectful, spouse B can analyze the fact that it was disrespectful and instead of responding with instincts/feelings, and can analytically choose to divert the mutual problem solving regarding Spouse A's wants in a more productive path.​

​

Here is a series of letters about how to prevent mutual spousal abuse (a massive argument is mutual spousal abuse, regardless of who started it):

Abusive Marriage - Letter #1 : Marriage Builders, Inc.

Letter #1 Introduction: The subject of physical and emotional abuse in marriage is difficult to address because spouses cannot usually agree as to what it is. Physical abuse is easier to define...

www.marriagebuilders.com

Here is a great collection of resources that we use every day in our marriage: Basic Concepts : Marriage Builders, Inc.

However, as well, until the diagnosed BPD is treated, you may not be able to achieve the romantically in-love marriage that I enjoy and advocate for for all marriages, even if you are able to mitigate your participation in conflicts with the information I've provided in my responses and in the links above.

I pray the best for you & yours, and may God's blessings richly multiply in 2024.

If you have any questions on what I wrote to you for advice regarding your marital behaviors, or the contents of the above links, I'd be happy to re-engage in a conversation.

Godspeed.
E.

 

[jmz]

Will a statistic justify the advice he provided in the video?

Not at all. Just wanted to make sure you arent making stuff up. In this day and age on the web really hard to know what is real and what is not. People throw round statements based on purely nothing sometimes :/. You see it in politics heaps. Also people on the web love to talk share opinions. Get their "thumbs up" fix and move on

In general i think John Piper's philosophic approach to theology is pretty shocking tbh.

 

[jmz]

Good morning @jmz

I hope you & family had a wonderful NY.

I'm sorry you aren't interested in what I wrote to you. In spite of your challenging situation, you are contributing to your difficulties.

Per your own descriptions, you've been disrespectful to your wife and have also demonstrated disrespect to me as well. I don't care about your disrespect to me, but the disrespect towards your wife is not helping your marriage.

Meaningful change doesn't often happen until a person can identify/describe your behaviors to yourself in words. Reactive instincts can be analyzed and controlled once your thoughts have words for what is happening.

For example, the average anger outburst follows a predictable, mutually abusive pattern:​

1) Spouse A wants to do or buy something. (May or may not be presented with disrespect.)​

2) Spouse B doesn't want to do or buy that. Spouse B may respond disrespectfully.​

3) So, Spouse A makes a selfish demand (something they want even if the other spouse doesn't want it) or engages in independent behavior (something A wants to do but B doesn't want A to do it), perhaps answering disrespect with more disrespect.​

4) Spouse B responds with more disrespectful judgment or anger.​

5) A responds to #4 with more disrespect and anger.​

6) B responds to #5 with another anger outburst, etc etc until the argument is won by one spouse at the other's expense.​

​

If spouse B understands this progression, he/she can analyze his/her words in response to #1 to ensure they are productive and not disrespectful, so often the argument would not proceed to #2.​

​

If the statement in #1 was disrespectful, spouse B can analyze the fact that it was disrespectful and instead of responding with instincts/feelings, and can analytically choose to divert the mutual problem solving regarding Spouse A's wants in a more productive path.​

​

Here is a series of letters about how to prevent mutual spousal abuse (a massive argument is mutual spousal abuse, regardless of who started it):

Abusive Marriage - Letter #1 : Marriage Builders, Inc.

Letter #1 Introduction: The subject of physical and emotional abuse in marriage is difficult to address because spouses cannot usually agree as to what it is. Physical abuse is easier to define...

www.marriagebuilders.com

Here is a great collection of resources that we use every day in our marriage: Basic Concepts : Marriage Builders, Inc.

However, as well, until the diagnosed BPD is treated, you may not be able to achieve the romantically in-love marriage that I enjoy and advocate for for all marriages, even if you are able to mitigate your participation in conflicts with the information I've provided in my responses and in the links above.

I pray the best for you & yours, and may God's blessings richly multiply in 2024.

If you have any questions on what I wrote to you for advice regarding your marital behaviors, or the contents of the above links, I'd be happy to re-engage in a conversation.

Godspeed.
E.

You really dont know much about BPD i think. Do some research on it. This guy is one of the leading experts:

Homepage

www.jeffriggenbach.com

I think part of the issue may also be cultural. The culture i come from men and women talk to each other quite candidly, respectuflly and truthfullly and everything is absolutely fine, because they understand that in general most people mean well. Even more so if you are husband and wife! You got married for good intent obviously...
In the west ive noticed, if you dont deliver well regardless of the heart's intent it can go downhill fast! This is the big lie Satan has sold the west. It breaks apart families, creates poloarized society, racism and so much more.

In the west if you heard disrespect then it IS disrespectful. There is no room for wrong interpretation. This is not truth. Something can sound disrespectful but not be meant disrespectfully. Westerners especially have an issue with this.

But "God looks at the heart..."

Satan wants us to read the "as ifs", She said X "as if" she was meaning Y... you see how it works? The father of lies is at work.

But "God looks at the heart...". We are to be imitators of God.

When this lie that the enemy brings in works at its best it means delivery trumps truth and you get con artists who trick women into relationships because their delivery is spot on and their heart is not.....

This ^ is unfrotunatly what people are inadvertantly promoting when they push delivery above heart. The west need to learn from other countries.
That the heart matters. Delivery is socially, culturally, personality and so many other factors influenced. Heart intention is universal. You either mean someone good or bad.

 

[Endeavourer]

In general i think John Piper's philosophic approach to theology is pretty shocking tbh.

On this we agree!

It's hard to see how his approach is not easily distinguished as "another gospel" with little connection to the one the Holy Spirit recorded for us via the inspiration of Scriptures.

 

[Endeavourer]

You really dont know much about BPD i think. Do some research on it. This guy is one of the leading experts:

Thank you for the link. I will read it.

BPD is not something I'm qualified to handle beyond saying that if one marriage partner has an illness of any kind, it's their responsibility to make themselves as whole and marriageable as medically possible. If your wife's mitigation of her BPD is not working for you, you have the agency to tell her that the course of treatment she is taking is not working for you and that you would like her to try another path for the sake of your marriage.

If, in spite of everyone's best efforts, the treatment approach she prefers is not allowing a functional marriage, a different treatment can become your marriage right to insist upon if living in a more peaceful home is worth that path to you, the other spouse.

So that's all I know about BPD.

In the west if you heard disrespect then it IS disrespectful. There is no room for wrong interpretation. This is not truth. Something can sound disrespectful but not be meant disrespectfully. Westerners especially have an issue with this.

I read somewhere that only 10-20% of marriages would deem themselves very very happy and romantically in love with each other. I am in such a marriage and it's my earnest desire that all should enjoy this wonderful path.

What I can help with is identifying anger outbursts, disrespect and other marriage-busting behaviors on your side of the fence (since you are the one here). I have done this work in my own marriage.

You show a lot of those behaviors in your initial problem description, your responses to me and your responses to others. Receiving the the rude behavior you are manifesting would not feel good to a woman or help any marriage regardless of culture. And, I can discern from your writing that your wife feels this as well.

There is no room for wrong interpretation. This is not truth.

Yet, your perceptions don't need to be delivered with blunt instruments. Also, her experiences may allow her to see an angle of the truth that's not obvious to you.

Any contribution you are making towards the marital woes is in your ability to change. Perhaps your wife is making 80% of the poor contributions; if you can change your 20% you will feel better about yourself and will feel peace about your own participation in the marriage.

At that point you'll also have a clearer understanding of what the **BEST** potential of your marriage is, and whether that is something you can live with or if you need something to change (such as insisting upon a different treatment plan for the BPD).

My goal is not to help you endure a poor marriage; it is to help you get to that point so you can make well informed decisions about your future, knowing that you have removed yourself as a source of the problem.

Your writing indicates that you engage in the following behaviors towards your wife:

• selfish demands: Love Busters - Selfish Demands : Marriage Builders, Inc.
• disrespectful judgments: Love Busters - Disrespectful Judgments : Marriage Builders, Inc.
• anger outbursts: Love Busters - Angry Outbursts : Marriage Builders, Inc.

Once you see your behavior through these lens, you'll be empowered to stop the behaviors and interact more productively in your marriage, hopefully getting to that point I've mentioned, where you know your side of the street is clean.

Take care,
E.