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I am not superman and I cannot do it all or stay awake for four days straight. Something would have to give and it would probably be me mentally.
If I married a lady who trusts that God wants her to be submissive to me, one of the first things I might tell her to do is not be my puppet
My pleasure! Your posts certainly enrich my experience on this forum.
Ah! So this just clarified your position for me cleared up some of my confusion with your intentions vis a vis the clear intellect and dignity of your will shown in your other posts.
So, you are personally convicted to follow the "submission" model, but your expectations of of "submission" are vastly different than the "submission" experienced, and even demanded, by many of the submission crowd in this debate.
As you have been a witness, discussions of submission often turn very ugly on this board, with a cavalcade of men chiming in to demand the woman's obeisance as their Biblical entitlement, along with 51% (effectively 100%) of a say in all of the decisions in the home. I always REALLY appreciate all the men who join in to combat their unBiblical stampede.
Often when abused women subjugated under that false doctrine hear "submission", they are hearing coerced, enforced submission that a husband is now entitled to not only receive, but enforce!
Your rendering of the concept is in line with Paul's writings. It is a gift you give to your husband, as unto the Lord, but you will see that in a beautiful relationship with a believer that offers the fruits of the Spirit, your husband will not want to gain at your expense and will esteem others better than self, so the outcome is that you are both submitting to each other in function (Eph 5:21). This is not to say that you don't acquiesce to areas of his strength (and as well, he to yours), but you do so because you choose to trust his leadership in that area. Or even choose to trust his leadership in many areas.
We believe that behaviors are easier to change than feelings, so we honor each other's feelings with changes in our behaviors. This enables our romantic love to continue growing and deepening.
Wrt the L&R book, Eggerich's paradigm will not develop and grow romantic love in a marriage. That's another topic but the marital mechanics he describes are so vastly different than those we follow in our marriage. If we followed his mechanics we would certainly not be in honeymoonish, romantic swooning love with each other. I don't know of any L&R marriages that are. That would be a longer post, but there are many reasons why that is so.
We all have our different callings. Suffering 25 years of abuse due to twisted perceptions of doctrines injured my spirit. Now that I'm strong again, I feel a irresistible calling to minister to other believers who are entombed in a covenant of death under the same doctrines.
I have written my thoughts with respect to my understanding of the first half of 1 Cor 11. My study in that area involved searching out whether women are to wear hats to church, as my denomination at the time required women to do.
Thanks! I've been blessed by your posts as well. I always enjoy your participation in discussions.
Something within me longs for Him and His presence had a profound impact. I don’t think I grasp its fullness yet. But I know my heart cedes to His. I don’t want to wrestle or to disobey. Obedience gives me peace.
When you consider that in light of 1 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Peter 3:1-2, Ephesians 5:22, and Proverbs 12:4, 18:22, and 31:10-12.
I don’t see a yoke.
I delight in the manifestation of the principle He put forth in the Lord’s prayer:
Your kingdom come, your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Not mine. Not his. But God’s working through the union and sanctifying each for His glory.
And because I love Him dearly. I can’t help but feel the same for my companion. The divinity in me testifies to his. Serving Him as unto the Lord is a source of joy and peace.
But when I answered your question something troubled me. It wasn’t the book in itself. I enjoyed it. What bothered me was why I did. His message resonates because its easy for me. I believed that anyway.
And the more I pondered it the more I felt that was telling. I have been in the company of many women. Christian and otherwise. I know that disposition isn’t common.
I began to wonder if both were laboring under expectations that were unfair and were truthfully a hardship. I questioned if we were meant to learn these things along the way. I feared they’d taken rare attributes and made them a standard. And that saddened me.
This thread is the result of those thoughts. I hope through the comments we’ll recognize our diversity and see the danger of trying to fit others into boxes God did not intend.
Only the Holy Spirit can reshape us. He uses others and situations to bring it about. I choose to work in harmony with my partner for its unfolding. But I’m uniquely fashioned to do so without complaint.
The absence of the same isn’t a cause of shame or disgust. There are many things which bring us to our current state. Only the Lord knows how to utilize them for our betterment and theirs. I trust Him implicitly. But my perspective isn’t the only one.
Obedience to the Lord does give one peace. Unconditional obedience, even. Amen!!
Yet, on the topic of this post, a human will never live up to the unfailing mercy and love of the Lord, so granting such unconditional obedience to your husband will eventually yield a different effect.
LaBella, ideally it would not be a yoke. But humans fall short. They are not made to accept or receive worship. Unconditional love and obedience towards another is not far from a state of worship. What happens to any of us mere mortals who start accepting worship is a great study... the evolution of their character or their end is never good.
Yes, delight in our spouse and in our union and in our Lord is wonderful and healthy. Marriage is a type of Christ's relationship with his bride; my husband often remarks on some aspect about our relationship that reminds him of one more way that our relationship typifies the relationship between Christ and the church.
The emotional and spiritual intimacy my husband and I share are in a similar vein to each of our personal relationships with Christ. We are one with each other, and we are one with Christ. Synergisticly, wonderfully so.
However, if one of you brings the fruits of darkness into the union then this ideal becomes painful and to the extent you still try to serve it, it even becomes destructive to yourself. This only works between two who become one in the fruits of the Spirit. Fruits of darkness will never yield joy and peace.
So the L&R book, in my estimation, foments fruits of darkness on the part of theIt encourages the husband's entitlement of her esteem rather than teaching him to "esteem other better than self".
It teaches him to enforce her submission by calling her out with "I didn't feel respected when you ___ just now." And it burdens the woman into unconditional duty submission.
Further, it robs the woman of her sexual being and her sexual agency. It portrays sex as "HIS" release and her sacrifice of just a few minutes.
This is NOT God's view of sex or why He created it!! L&R gives little (if any) space to discuss a woman's sexuality and not once mentions her sexual pleasure or her sexual needs. I'd hate to read his rewrite of Song of Solomon.
Further, it encourages women to "minister" to their husband sexually even if they don't feel like it as a way to respect him and as their duty.
This is terrible advice and will create a sexual aversion.
As for how I submit to the Lord, I consider myself "on call". If he calls, I need to do what he needs me to do. And when he's not telling me to do X or talk to Y, I need to be growing.
Personal, yes.Dave, this is a personal question and perhaps off topic, but I'm curious as to why you stay in a congregation (or even a denomination) that scorns your wife.
Indeed. What I found out AFTER I left was the eldership was divided over me. My home group leader often sat in on elder meetings and he told me that half ov them wanted to promote me to home group leader and deacon; the other half wanted to kick me out of the congregation altogether. But since they needed all to be of the sme opinion, neither happened.being scorned by both the leaders and the congregants in the assembly doesn't sound like a situation that ministers to your wife.
One of the problems I had with the congregation in college (and after) was their teaching on a lot of topics were absolutely dead on accurate, but they way they applied them got really wacked out.As far as submission goes, I would say that an important aspect is that it is a voluntarily accepted role.
If I married a lady who trusts that God wants her to be submissive to me, one of the first things I might tell her to do is not be my puppet
If God is having her submit to me, I need to pray and make sure God is guiding how I share with her and guide her.What would you do if her constitution is geared to agreement and trust? What if her trust in God compelled her to follow you and abide by your decisions? Would you try to change her into something she's not?
That jail bird?
Personal, yes.
Off topic? We will let the OP decide on that. IMO it is not off topic.
If God is having her submit to me, I need to pray and make sure God is guiding how I share with her and guide her.
And I believe God will use her to give me feedback to help me know what to do and how to guide her. It would not be in every detail, I think, like micro-managing.
To me, this means we are mutually submissive. But if God wants me to be her head, then I do have responsibility over her and she is submissive to me, but at the same time I am submissive to her, but as her head.
So, I need to be directing her the way God in her has already decided He wants to direct her, so that my direction is a coincidence and witness to what she is doing with God
So, I need to find out why she is going along with me during disagreement . . . who is really right. So, we might need to not move until we are in agreement.
Well, Jesus is our Head; so I can see He wants to guide every detail of what we do, like how a human head is so micromanaging of what its body does. Plus, Jesus is our Groom who desires to be with us and share with us, all the time > "I am with you always", He says in Matthew 28:20. So I can see Jesus wants to be involved in every thing of our practical lives, personally guiding us in every detail > because this has us in constant and personal and sensitive sharing in love with Jesus our Groom. And it is written >I concur and think this is managed in light of your personalities and outlook. I don’t like micro-management. But some couples want that in their relationship.
From this, I get how God our Heavenly Father does please to personally guide all we do, in His peace.
Because God's love is not like a welfare system, where you accept help only with what you can not do for yourself and you give only what somebody needs. You do things to be together.
Paul does say they need time to be in prayer and fasting > 1 Corinthians 7:5.I need space in our togetherness so that each can give time to inner ministrations and periods of quiet.
Paul does say they need time to be in prayer and fasting > 1 Corinthians 7:5.
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