Submission and obedience.

[Paidiske]

The part of your argument where you claim that it's part of a husband's role to discipline his wife is very unconvincing. There is an aspect of marriage which is meant to represent the relationship between Christ and the Church, but that doesn't mean the husband is like God in every way, nor can he be.

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

The part of your argument where you claim that it's part of a husband's role to discipline his wife is very unconvincing. There is an aspect of marriage which is meant to represent the relationship between Christ and the Church, but that doesn't mean the husband is like God in every way, nor can he be.

You may be personally unconvinced, but the Bible says the husband is head of the wife "even as" Christ is head of the church, and that a husband is to love as Christ loves. So, being the head in like manner and loving in like manner, he would discipline his wife in carnal representations to accomplish Christ's loftier spiritual purposes through him.

 

[solid_core]

True, but you're assuming all girls are 'bad' until proven otherwise, not the other way around. xD

Lets call it wisdom

 

[Endeavourer]

@Thir7ySev3n

With respect to your comments about disciplining your wife, do you believe a man has the right to spank his wife?

 

[lovelife34]

Lets call it wisdom

LOL, okay, sure.

 

[Junia]

I would say (and am not married, so don't take my word for it) that 99% of decisions that a husband makes are quite straightforward for a wife to agree with (eg what new garden furniture to buy, ho wmuch money to give to a charity or church, where to go on holiday etc) an dit would not be hard for a wife to submit to.

in a healthy marriage the couple would talk it out but if the husband said no, hi sshould be the final say. i think most wives would be ok with that. i remember someone once teling me that marriage mean syou consider th epother person's needs before your own. so marriage is about give and take, but many times, give, give, give. and if both parties are doing that, then it will work well.

I am not sure how submission would apply in slightly more complex conflicts. i used to know a Christain couple with two children. younger child had some issues with mental health and a mild learning disability. the mother and the child's school wanted the child to get outside help but the father was dead against it. the couple tried prayer- casting out demons from the child and gettign the child to confess any sin in their life that had caused their issues (child had been struggling since early childhood) when thi sdidnt work the child was punished for having an episode of anxiety or struggling in their schoolwork

the child got older and was self harming and suffering suicidal intent. father would not allow help instead telling the child they had a spirit of self pity and was to blame and to just shut up and stop bothering them with their problems. the mother ended up sneaking off with the child for the child to see a counsellor and their doctor who referred them to community mental health team. Mother and child were afraid of their father so didn't tell him.

so what do you do ina situation like this when the woman is forced to disobey?? this couple and their children are members of my family, and it difficult for me to see ho wi could help them resolve this?

 

[Junia]

Hmmm, so if that's the case, why do men get married? Isn't it more practical to just live alone and make their decisions, if they are ultimately not going to take their wives' opinions into consideration?

Hmmm, less interaction, cancelling dates, not going out of his way to do nice things...sounds like coercion and manipulation. I didn't know that was biblical. So why not just communicate verbally with the wife? I'm not understanding. xD So relational withdrawal...I thought men were supposed to love their wives sacrificially? This seems like manipulation, not love. xD Speaking of what comes naturally to men....70% of narcissists are men.... I don't think that's a coincidence. xD

But even so, I think that if a man engages in this 'relational withdrawal,' it only makes logical sense that the wife will engage in it as well... but I don't believe in it, fundamentally...it seems quite counterintuitive. If you want someone to do something, wouldn't you rather be nice to them, and not alienate them? I didn't realize this was a 'thing.' It seems like the hypothetical wife and husband are just playing games, it doesn't seem like a union or sacred in any way.
Withdrawing stewardship makes sense, whether the wife or the husband mismanages something. If the husband is financially impulsive, it doesn't make sense to give him stewardship over that just because he is a man.....

withdrawing stewardship may make sense in a case if the wife is misusing money for example if she gambling or getting drunk on it or overspending on things she doesnt need.

withdrawing affection- no, because Jesus doesn t do that to us when we sin. in fact i have often had Jesus come and show me Hi s love when i am at my worst- that is when i need it most. but i guess that is the key word- "need." because a wife does not need to spend money on unneccessary thinga but we all have a human need for love from those closest to us.

 

[lovelife34]

1. God on many occasions withdraws Himself and His blessings and ignores His bride/church for a time.
2. God is perfect love (1 John 4:8), thus this can not be unloving discipline.
3. Jesus and the Father are one (John 10:30) and the same yesterday, today and tomorrow (Hebrews 13:8). The God of the OT and NT is the same.
4. A man is designed and assigned to image God/Christ, representing Him to his wife (Ephesians 5:22-29, 1 Corinthians 11:3-9).
5. Christ disciplines those He loves (Revelation 3:19) and this discipline has included temporary withdrawals to draw us back to proper union (verses listed several times above, et al.).
6. Therefore, a man aptly represents God be practicing such discipline.



While this is amusing, you have been misled if some particular person here has convinced you pretending to agree with me has any value to myself. I'm concerned about propagating God's doctrines relentlessly for any spectator of the conversation who would believe God's word on account of hearing/seeing it, because this is what we are commanded to do and warned will not be endured (2 timothy 4:2-3).

As I said, this is not about you or myself, but upholding Scripture for God's people as a whole (2 Timothy 3:16-17) and remaining unspotted by the world (James 1:27, Colossians 2:8) because this is what Christ finds beautiful (Ephesians 5:27).

I know with 100% confidence that God Himself would never condone a husband ignoring a wife when he has an issue with her, rather than communicating verbally with her. I know that. If you look at the Bible, did Jesus ignore people, or did He draw close to them? Loving your wife as you love yourself does not equate to ignoring someone or emotionally withdrawing from a relationship. Your premise is that men are God, but Satan wanted to become like God, that's why he was cast away. Seeing yourself as God is blasphemy. Men are not God. We are all made in God's image, but trying to say that, God left people in wilderness, so therefore, because you are a man (and like God) that you should do the same isn't biblical doctrine. It's a gross oversimiplification of the Bible.

I found an article by someone who knows the Greek languages and translated the submission verse step by step.
"We read it and hear something rather like: Wives, do what your husband says, much as you would if God were speaking.

But: this ancient letter to a church in Ephesus wasn’t written in modern English, and much of what we assume when we translate it is quite a bit off. And this is sad – not only because we translate this verse in ways that reinforce traditional gender hierarchies in our culture, but also because what we are losing in translation is really a lovely idea about spousal relationships that came with a shock to the Greco-Roman culture and that might potentially come with a bit of a shock to our modern American culture, too.

Specifically, I suggested that rather than submit, “in context, υποτασσομαι (hupotassomai) probably means to deploy yourself in support of your spouse against the enemy.”

In fact, I would suggest that a better translation might be something like one of these:

“Wives, support your husbands.”
“Wives, deploy yourselves in support of your husbands.”
“Wives, arrange yourselves for battle for your husbands.”

Or even, less literally:

“Wives, go to battle for your husbands.”
“Wives, defend your husbands.”

The Misleading Translation of "Wives, Submit," ... and a Tale of Battle-Ready Women - STANT LITORE

We can see how much effort is required to actually understand the true meaning of the Bible. Your 'extrapolation' of husbands disciplining wives isn't even in the Bible. I've looked all over, I could not find even one verse that said, "Husbands, discipline your wives." And not even one that spoke of how to go about disciplining your wife....

On a very practical level, if you ignore your wife and cancel dates instead of communicating, you won't get the result you want. Trust me. No married couple who doesn't end up divorced does that. I think divorced couples or couples who are on the verge of divorce ignore each other though....and they definitely don't go on dates or do nice things for one another....

But you'll learn soon enough. xD

 

[lovelife34]

You may be personally unconvinced, but the Bible says the husband is head of the wife "even as" Christ is head of the church, and that a husband is to love as Christ loves. So, being the head in like manner and loving in like manner, he would discipline his wife in carnal representations to accomplish Christ's loftier spiritual purposes through him.

Well, in my search for the Bible verses about husbands disciplining their wives, I stumbled across some blogs on 'domestic discipline.' It was filled with women talking about how their husbands spank them, use a belt/strap......:o Well, listen. God says we shouldn't judge so I guess I won't.... but man it's so hard for me not to....one of these blogs talked about a woman wearing a diaper as her husband spanked her.......I mean.....when I read your posts about husbands 'disciplining' their wives, I immediately thought of infantilization....now it all makes sense. xD

EXCERPT
"
And mostly I feel ashamed and sorry my husband had to punish me like when he saw me in pants though I’m not allowed. I felt so guilty, I’d have taken them off in the main street.
I know he derives no pleasure from punishing me, except for thinking I look cute in a diaper. I know he puts great amount of thought in my punishments as to why and what will work. I asked him how he felt when he was punishing me. He said like he was doing his job.
And he has a gift for choosing the right one.
If I didn’t have a bedtime, I would stay up late and be cranky the next day. But I know if I do, Ill be going to bed early for a week. If I didn’t get put on restriction from my phone, I would go over my minutes every month. Pants make it harder to spank me. And my non-DD friends just upset me.
The best thing to me is, after a spanking, corner time, or being forced to redo my housework under his supervision is I am cleansed of my guilt and him of his anger. We have no resentments, old issues or grudges."

This makes your form of 'disciplining' seem not so bad after all..........

 

[lovelife34]

I would say (and am not married, so don't take my word for it) that 99% of decisions that a husband makes are quite straightforward for a wife to agree with (eg what new garden furniture to buy, ho wmuch money to give to a charity or church, where to go on holiday etc) an dit would not be hard for a wife to submit to.

in a healthy marriage the couple would talk it out but if the husband said no, hi sshould be the final say. i think most wives would be ok with that. i remember someone once teling me that marriage mean syou consider th epother person's needs before your own. so marriage is about give and take, but many times, give, give, give. and if both parties are doing that, then it will work well.

I am not sure how submission would apply in slightly more complex conflicts. i used to know a Christain couple with two children. younger child had some issues with mental health and a mild learning disability. the mother and the child's school wanted the child to get outside help but the father was dead against it. the couple tried prayer- casting out demons from the child and gettign the child to confess any sin in their life that had caused their issues (child had been struggling since early childhood) when thi sdidnt work the child was punished for having an episode of anxiety or struggling in their schoolwork

the child got older and was self harming and suffering suicidal intent. father would not allow help instead telling the child they had a spirit of self pity and was to blame and to just shut up and stop bothering them with their problems. the mother ended up sneaking off with the child for the child to see a counsellor and their doctor who referred them to community mental health team. Mother and child were afraid of their father so didn't tell him.

so what do you do ina situation like this when the woman is forced to disobey?? this couple and their children are members of my family, and it difficult for me to see ho wi could help them resolve this?

Wow, that's so sad. I think parents should want the best for their children. If the child is suffering suicidal intent, then I feel like a good compromise would be to go to a Christian psychiatrist....

 

[Junia]

Wow, that's so sad. I think parents should want the best for their children. If the child is suffering suicidal intent, then I feel like a good compromise would be to go to a Christian psychiatrist....

i think his concern wasnt just that psychiatry is not of God (which was his opinion by the way, not based on naything int he Wordm but fair enough we all have our opinions) but he was worried that it would make him look bad if the child talked about their problems- he was involved in a healing ministry and was looking for leadership there. said that because his child was out of control they would not let him lead. his other child had severe depression in her teens and the father told her if she ever told nayone outside the family he would harm her.

i used to be involved in that kind of chriatian "cult" where they believed psychotherapy etc was a sin and that "attention seeking" by children should be punished....am glad i am out of that.....i am studying a lot of psychology myself (not for a degree but i do read books on it) and there is a successful CHRISTIAN psychotherapist who said "If a child is attention seeking the they have an inner need that is not being met. maybe the parent needs to ask the child why they feel unloved and then see how they can help." and this guy is a Christian, so i see nothing wrong in his approach! i see nothing about it being UnBiblical anyway- that is just like those who say women should not wear earrings or they go to hell. pure opinion. thiugh they entitled to it, of course. i just dont take it as the Word of God, which is the Bible!

 

[Paidiske]

in a healthy marriage the couple would talk it out but if the husband said no, hi sshould be the final say. i think most wives would be ok with that.

No, I don't think most would, actually.

For what it's worth, fathers refusing to acknowledge or take action on suspected disability in their children is very, very common. If the child's mother hasn't done so yet, she might like to try out a special needs parenting forum; she's likely to find support from other people who've been through similar things.

 

[Junia]

No, I don't think most would, actually.

For what it's worth, fathers refusing to acknowledge or take action on suspected disability in their children is very, very common. If the child's mother hasn't done so yet, she might like to try out a special needs parenting forum; she's likely to find support from other people who've been through similar things.

i guess so, although i doubt her husband would let her do that. he very adamant that nobody should "know" their daughter is "crazy and out of control" as he puts it. when his other daughter had severe depression as a teenager he threatened her to keep quiet and dont talk about it ever again or he would punish her. he would also threaten to put her in care if she showed any unhappiness. This said, with his face up close to hers, screaming at her. he got a knife out once and ssid hewould slash her up. to be fair when i got upset when she told me this, she said he often went on tirades like this and she (the wife0) said "it i sbest to please him or we all walk on eggshells." he said daughter was making family look bad.

it i spart of the church culture our whole family was in at that time. he would have probably punished his wife very badly if she went behind his back. he had a temper- you did not cross him. even being around this relative as a kid made my skin crawl but then i had my own issues and was not sure what anormal husband and father should be like.

so would a wife in the situation i described above ever be wrong in sneaking around or encouraging her kids to sneak around to get help? the youngest child was still unwelll for a long time but she did seem happier t hav ehad soem sort of counselling. less nervous all the time. beore that she was nervous a lot.

what if it were something like vaccination? husband and wife disagree? i was on a FB about Christina homemakers and a wife on it was saying she was oposed to vaccinations but her husband wanted her to vaccinate? The lady running the page was anti-vaccine herself but she said "your husband has to come before your children?" i was like "???? i just can't see any mother putting husband before kids and being happy about it?"

 

[Paidiske]

so would a wife in the situation i described above ever be wrong in sneaking around or encouraging her kids to sneak around to get help?

You've just described pretty significant domestic violence (have another look at the wheel I posted up thread, and see how many of the things on it he does). Never mind getting help, I'd be encouraging her to get out.

 

[Junia]

You've just described pretty significant domestic violence (have another look at the wheel I posted up thread, and see how many of the things on it he does). Never mind getting help, I'd be encouraging her to get out.

thank you. i do believe no one should stay in a relationship where they or their children are being hurt. i suspect the acting up of the youngest may be a lot to do with what she witnessd there. they both grown uo and left home now as far as i know, wife still there.

 

[bèlla]

Well, in my search for the Bible verses about husbands disciplining their wives, I stumbled across some blogs on 'domestic discipline.'

Some people use religion to justify fetishes their conscience won’t accept. Its all the same.

one of these blogs talked about a woman wearing a diaper

There has never been a time when I spotted Depends and imagined myself in them. That was the first warning sign.

The best thing to me is, after a spanking, corner time, or being forced to redo my housework under his supervision is I am cleansed of my guilt and him of his anger. We have no resentments, old issues or grudges."

Where is Christ in all of that? Probably shutting His eyes.

~Bella

 

[Swag365]

This feels like a good time to revisit this diagram representing various dimensions of abuse in the home:

View attachment 277730

Interesting wheel. Why do you think that "treating him/her as a servant" is defined as "using male privilege" when both genders can be guilty of treating someone as a servant?

At least in my experience, it seems that the wife is more likely to exert practical control over most of the crucial decisions in the home nowadays (how the money is spent, where the kids go to school, etc.)

 

[Paidiske]

Interesting wheel. Why do you think that "treating him/her as a servant" is defined as "using male privilege" when both genders can be guilty of treating someone as a servant?

I think in that specific case it's part of the pattern of using male privilege (as we're seeing play out in this very thread) where our society has conditioned women to serve and men to expect to be served.

Yes, both sexes can be guilty of it, but when a woman does it, it isn't part of the same sort of pattern of cultural privilege.

At least in my experience, it seems that the wife is more likely to exert practical control over most of the crucial decisions in the home nowadays (how the money is spent, where the kids go to school, etc.)

I guess it's common, in situations where men work outside the home and women do so less, if at all, for women to handle the running of the household, by mutual agreement. But in situations of abuse, then often the abuser will do things like control money.

 

[Swag365]

I think in that specific case it's part of the pattern of using male privilege (as we're seeing play out in this very thread) where our society has conditioned women to serve and men to expect to be served.

Yes, both sexes can be guilty of it, but when a woman does it, it isn't part of the same sort of pattern of cultural privilege.

It's interesting that you view it that way. If a man does not provide for his family financially or physically protect his wife and children, society will call him a loser, a "deadbeat," or what have you. People will say that a man who does not protect and provide is "not a real man" but I don't think people would call the wife who does not protect and provide "not a real woman." I don't think women have the same type of cultural pressure on them that men carry, in that respect. Perhaps as a woman you haven't experienced things from the male perspective, as we can't see the world through your lenses?

Another example is that if a man decides to stay single into his 40's folks will say that he has "Peter Pan Syndrome" or whatever and refuses to grow up and take on responsibility of a family. If a woman does it she may be lauded for focusing on her career.

Men go and fight wars, sacrificing their physical well being. Men for the most part do all of the most hazardous and dangerous jobs that need to be done.

Even before marriage, many women consider it the man's duty to pay for dinner and other things during courtship. To hold doors open for you. To come to your assistance in physically demanding tasks, to give up our seats on a train, etc, for you.

At least from my perspective, it seems that men are the modern day servants of women, when you consider the cultural privileges and responsibilities on both sides.

I'd guess you view it different, but I don't think that wedge on the chart is fair. I think it is only viewing the situation from one viewpoint. I would say that if both viewpoints are not considered men will view terms like "male privilege" as a power grab sold under the guise of equality.

Just my 2 cents on it.

 

[lovelife34]

Some people use religion to justify fetishes their conscience won’t accept. Its all the same.



There has never been a time when I spotted Depends and imagined myself in them. That was the first warning sign.



Where is Christ in all of that? Probably shutting His eyes.

~Bella

Hahaha Exactly. And what was even more disturbing to me was that, a lot of people are actually doing this. Ignorance is bliss. xD
I could not deal with it. xD I guess what they say is right, when you're a child you want to be an adult, and when you're an adult, you want to go back to being a kid.....
Shutting His eyes!