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Stuff I Think Is Important - Part I: Philosophy

Resha Caner

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A suggestion was made in this thread. However, in order to address the suggestion, it seems to me there is a list of issues that are probably best taken one at a time. This thread is the first one - philosophy of science. While I think this is an important topic, I am aware many do not think it is important. So, let's first get some feedback on where people fall.

Question 1: Is the philosophy of science important?

Question 2: If you answer "yes" to question 1, what is your philosophy of science?

I'll list a few of what I consider to be the major camps and explain where I fall. Further, I'll be using electrons as an example for the discussion.

Realism: In short, science is describing what is real. Science is objective. If science says electrons exist, then electrons exist.

Empiricism: All we can really know is what our senses perceive. Therefore, science doesn't worry about whether things are real. It focuses on the data our senses (with the aid of scientific instruments) can detect. We measure a phenomena that we have chosen to call an electron, and that's the end of it. Given that perspective, empiricists emphasize data over model. Mathematical models don't mean anything until test data verifies what the model predicted.

Platonism: Our senses are too easily deceived, and need to be guided. Further, whatever it is that we're measuring, there is no guarantee that the electron we measure here is the same as the electron we measure there. Rather, there is a perfect electron - a "Form" of an electron that we can only imperfectly and subjectively know through our measurements.

Platonism has a strong history in science. For example, the fact that all electrons are assumed to have the same rest mass, the same charge, etc. stems from a Platonist influence on science. This was mixed with strong doses of Realism and Positivism for much of the "Newtonian" period of science. However, there was a crisis of confidence in the Scientific Method around the turn of the 20th century. That, along with philosophers like Kant and Nietzsche, led to the rise of empiricism.

Today we have a mixed bag of scientists who speak as if they're empiricists, but who heavily utilize many of the concepts laid down by Platonists.

Instrumentalism: This is where I fall (for the most part). Instrumentalists tend to emphasize model over data, agreeing our senses are too easily fooled. However, they don't look at models as ideal Forms. Rather, it's more of an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. There is no claim that the model describes anything real. Rather, it just seems to work. It correlates to the data. Electron is a model that fits observed phenomena well and facilitates discussion and action.

Since all models are based on assumptions (axioms, postulates - pick your word), changing the assumptions can provide valuable insight into what we might be missing. It is an iterative process where models drive experiments, experiments confirm models, repeat. However, there is sometimes a tendency to stand firm on a model prediction that (currently) has no data to support it, whereas an empiricist would tend to dump the model.
 
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expos4ever

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Question 1: Yes, philosophy of science is important.

Questions 2: Like you, I believe I am an instrumentalist. But I am not sure how instrumentalism differs from empiricism once. You say this about empiricism:

Mathematical models don't mean anything until test data verifies what the model predicted.

Are you suggesting that, for the instrumentalist, the models do mean something even in the absence of supporting test data?
 
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Resha Caner

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Question 1: Yes, philosophy of science is important.

Questions 2: Like you, I believe I am an instrumentalist. But I am not sure how instrumentalism differs from empiricism once. You say this about empiricism:

Mathematical models don't mean anything until test data verifies what the model predicted.

Are you suggesting that, for the instrumentalist, the models do mean something even in the absence of supporting test data?

I'm not a perfect fit for instrumentalism, so it may just be me, but yes, I would say the model means something apart from the data. It's a sort of balance of powers if you want an analogy. Neither the model nor the data is perfect, so one needs to be balanced by the other just as the 3 branches of American government are supposed to create a balance of power.
 
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Hans Blaster

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A suggestion was made in this thread. However, in order to address the suggestion, it seems to me there is a list of issues that are probably best taken one at a time. This thread is the first one - philosophy of science. While I think this is an important topic, I am aware many do not think it is important. So, let's first get some feedback on where people fall.

Question 1: Is the philosophy of science important?

Question 2: If you answer "yes" to question 1, what is your philosophy of science?

Q1: Not particularly. The ideas have some importance, no doubt, but I've never really discussed any specific "philosophy of science" with another scientist.

Q2: Each of these has some points I might agree with, but each seem a bit off as well from any understanding I would have of how we proceed to understand nature.
 
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Resha Caner

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Q1: Not particularly. The ideas have some importance, no doubt, but I've never really discussed any specific "philosophy of science" with another scientist.

Q2: Each of these has some points I might agree with, but each seem a bit off as well from any understanding I would have of how we proceed to understand nature.

I may not have done the best job describing each. I expected someone might say, "No, that's not what empiricism is. It's defined as ..." I'm open to that. Hearing how other people think empiricism should be defined is more informative than just choosing from a list I made.

Or, alternatively, saying you don't like "ism" labels and think the philosophy of science is more straightforwardly discussed by just saying how you approach it - that's legit as well. Therefore, feel free to explain how you think we proceed. I'm more interested in hearing your view than debating you.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I may not have done the best job describing each. I expected someone might say, "No, that's not what empiricism is. It's defined as ..." I'm open to that. Hearing how other people think empiricism should be defined is more informative than just choosing from a list I made.

Or, alternatively, saying you don't like "ism" labels and think the philosophy of science is more straightforwardly discussed by just saying how you approach it - that's legit as well. Therefore, feel free to explain how you think we proceed. I'm more interested in hearing your view than debating you.

I guess to elaborate more: nature is what it is and it doesn't care what I think about it, however, all that I can know about must pass through my senses, including everything I read from someone else.

Any reply to Part II, would, I guess, fit this as well. Discussion is the goal.

I look forward to the parts with the Markov chains (need to look those up as I forget how they work), etc., but will keep looking at the background material.
 
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Resha Caner

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I guess to elaborate more: nature is what it is and it doesn't care what I think about it, however, all that I can know about must pass through my senses, including everything I read from someone else.

I agree.

Any reply to Part II, would, I guess, fit this as well. Discussion is the goal.

Right.

I look forward to the parts with the Markov chains (need to look those up as I forget how they work), etc., but will keep looking at the background material.

Sorry. Hope you don't get too bored before I get there, and hope you're not disappointed when we do. I'm starting to get this eerie feeling that expectations may be exceeding reality.
 
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SkyWriting

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Realism: In short, science is describing what is real. Science is objective. If science says electrons exist, then electrons exist.

People made the mistake of saying Atoms were indivisible...until they stopped saying that.
 
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Hans Blaster

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People made the mistake of saying Atoms were indivisible...until they stopped saying that.

They just applied the moniker "atom" a level or so too soon. Though, from the perspective of familiar substances, the currently named "atom" *is* the smallest amount of gold, or iron, or copper, that can exist and have the full identity of that element. (another term that was borrowed from a previous concept.)
 
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Amittai

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Realism: In short, science is describing what is real. Science is objective. If science says electrons exist, then electrons exist.

Empiricism: All we can really know is what our senses perceive. Therefore, science doesn't worry about whether things are real. It focuses on the data our senses (with the aid of scientific instruments) can detect. We measure a phenomena that we have chosen to call an electron, and that's the end of it. Given that perspective, empiricists emphasize data over model. Mathematical models don't mean anything until test data verifies what the model predicted.

Platonism: Our senses are too easily deceived, and need to be guided. Further, whatever it is that we're measuring, there is no guarantee that the electron we measure here is the same as the electron we measure there. Rather, there is a perfect electron - a "Form" of an electron that we can only imperfectly and subjectively know through our measurements.

Platonism has a strong history in science. For example, the fact that all electrons are assumed to have the same rest mass, the same charge, etc. stems from a Platonist influence on science. This was mixed with strong doses of Realism and Positivism for much of the "Newtonian" period of science. However, there was a crisis of confidence in the Scientific Method around the turn of the 20th century. That, along with philosophers like Kant and Nietzsche, led to the rise of empiricism.

Today we have a mixed bag of scientists who speak as if they're empiricists, but who heavily utilize many of the concepts laid down by Platonists.

Instrumentalism: This is where I fall (for the most part). Instrumentalists tend to emphasize model over data, agreeing our senses are too easily fooled. However, they don't look at models as ideal Forms. Rather, it's more of an "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" attitude. There is no claim that the model describes anything real. Rather, it just seems to work. It correlates to the data. Electron is a model that fits observed phenomena well and facilitates discussion and action.

Since all models are based on assumptions (axioms, postulates - pick your word), changing the assumptions can provide valuable insight into what we might be missing. It is an iterative process where models drive experiments, experiments confirm models, repeat. However, there is sometimes a tendency to stand firm on a model prediction that (currently) has no data to support it, whereas an empiricist would tend to dump the model.

There's an unfortunate tendency for some scientists to ignore the iterations of others. Furthermore we need multi-theory hypotheses and multi-hypothesis theories. The table, where we pile up (our own) votes for each of the myriad pictures has to be infintely vast. The Wimbledon knockout conception is counterproductive. Newman's degrees of inference apply everywhere. Inference, like love, never ends.

The models you've described are a heuristic. It is useful exactly for discussion and action. Good ones - which should be constantly tweakable - do indeed approximate to a picture of reality.

There is also a much bigger tendency to stand firm on a model that the data supports less well than another, neglected one.

Gilson and others have proposed methodical realism which avoids reification and nominalism. "Extreme realists" and idealists (as to metaphysics) are the same thing effectively, though they claim not to be.

Arthur Young the helicopter designer points out projectivity, namely that things are out there and in here in our minds, at the same time. (To my mind, this is good epistemology.)
 
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