"study The Scripture"

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The fact remains that the thread is about what the scripture says about our relationship with God, my quote said Abraham left God to go on his own and I agree. I'm not here to argue another's credits.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

simple

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Honestly, I think he has more sound teaching than any church I've seen. But I don't hold fast to any of them b/c none are for sure and w/o fault, WN included. You'll come at least close to the truth with him where most others aren't even close. There's no voodoo there.
you said

in fact only one thing, to see more clearly :
"Young people, you must see that you need to stay in the right position. If you stay in the church, you will be kept and preserved." quote from wl

Watchman Nee may have said this, and in context with him and his ecclesia and body of life, that was/is true.
In Lee's church(es), NO WAY ! (you'll be kept FROM truth)
Also, How true this may be for ANY OTHER church is highly questionable and subject to long testing (or instant revelation, Yahweh's choice).

we argue the opposite, I think that's so typical wl and I was going to change it to "stay in the body" and forgot. That's what I'm talking about ... the only difference is his enference on the "churchlife."
That's nonsence their not giving. I've met some and their good decent caring people. Most of their missions are in India.
You can't go wrong with his teaching if you know this difference. Otherwise your not getting any worse teaching than anywhere else and better than most.
I don't think it's good to turn others from something you haven't seen for yourself. Go there and find out and then we'll talk pm.


They also have a repeatisous(?) praise system taught to them by Witness Lee, which may be what your refering to, that might put the young members in danger of not moving forward but I know this is one teaching they are trying to overcome.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 21:10

Genesis 21:14

Genesis 21:16

Study 14 Genesis 20:1-21:21
Abraham and Abimelech
The Birth of Isaac
Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away

1) What may we learn from Gen. 20 of the weakness of human nature, even in a beleiver, and of God's protecting care and saving grace? Cf. Ps. 94:18; Mk. 14:38; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Tim. 2:13.

2) Gen. 21:1-7. "Isaac" means "laughter". What is the difference between Sarah's laughter in 18:12 and in 21:6? How was the change brought about? See also 17:17-19. To what 2 complimentary truths did the name Isaac thus bear witness? Cf. Mt. 19:26.

3) Gen. 21:8-21. From what was Ishmael cast out and why? Cf. Rom. 9:6-9; Gal. 4:28-30. Why did God nevertheless hear Ishmael's voice, and grant him His blessing and His presence?

Notes.
1) 20:18. The use here of God's covenant name "Lord" or "Jehovah" is significant. It was He who intervened to preserve Sarah as the intended mother of the promised son. Contrast 21:17-20, where we read that "God", not "the Lord", heard Ishmael's voice, etc.

2) 21:9. "Playing with": the sence is probably better conveyed by the AV and RV "mocking". Ishmael did not laugh like Sarah; he made fun. Thus Isaac, the object of Holy laughter, was made the butt of unholy mockery.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

As we have seen, Witness Lee shifts the emphasis from by grace through faith (Eph. 2:8-9), to baptism and "calling on the name of the Lord." According to Lee, these actions are necessary in order for one to be saved. Lee has clearly developed a works-righteousness theology by which one is supposedly saved. Perhaps the most serious consequences of Lee's doctrinal teaching of salvation is that people can "call upon the name of the Lord" and believe they are saved, when actually they may not be at all!
Human cooperation as espoused by Lee has absolutely no foundation whatsoever in the Word of God. It stands apart from the real Gospel of Jesus Christ as another gospel. It must therefore be condemned as one. The words of Jesus speaks for themselves:

from the reference given, and looked into deeper, further reference to get to main point they were trying to say: http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/FalseSalvation.ht

What a bunch of crock. First off, where else would you find such clearly defined beliefs? Second you'd have to understand "calling on the name of the Lord" to WL means to be in Jesus and identifying with Him.(His references aren't like ours in the west. He's an old school chinaman.) Like I said it has turned ritualistic when being passed from the first generation to the second.

Human cooperation as espoused by Lee has absolutely no foundation whatsoever in the Word of God. It stands apart from the real Gospel of Jesus Christ as another gospel. It must therefore be condemned as one.

The best thing he teaches IMO is human cooperation. Enough said. I defy anyone to break down any other religion in the same way and get any better results. Humbug. Line up your religion Mr. Whoever wrote that and let us scrutinize it. Good luck.
Does it say Jesus isn't God, no Mr Whoever says that human cooperation is bad. And heaven forbid we should call on the name of the Lord. Oih yo yo.

I also reference alot to Dake b/c the Dake's bible and the Recovery bible are standbys that I refer to often. Both of those are commentaried by just one person. It's much like taking Vernon McGee or Vine's commentary on the bible (or anyone's) and scrutinizing every word. Of course they have a flow and pattern to what there saying to be able to comment on the bible as a whole. V.McGee and Vine's teachings I love but I don't agree with every bit of there sayings. Are they making a new gospel?
Anytime one person holds the bag there going to get the blast. Everyone else justs hides behind everyone else and that's why organized religion gets away with what it does, and I'm sure that's not just my opinion.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hey, the last time I took abit of a break was with Noah and from # post 241 to here it's been Abraham being the first phase of discipleship. So, I'd really like to take some time to not think about this and I'll catcha in a few days.
Sianara!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I'm very concerned that each prove to themselves that I'm not passing on cult teachings as that's a very serious charge and I have no intention of removing my sources. I can't continue as it is for obvious reasons and when I do begin again everyone will know for themselves and at least be comfortable with the material I'm presenting.
I do not want to be classified as a Witness Lee/Watchman Nee/Dake/Spurgeon/doc/or otherwise follower as I'm none of these. Everything that I know is b/c God has told me it's true. Not some random voice but thru careful study He has givin me a deep understanding of Him and that's all I'm trying to pass on. The way that I do that is just what come up each day. I have no agenda and no plan, just as the Lord leads.
I also don't feel the need to explain myself so I'll shutup.
God bless and have a good day!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I need to add that I am a worshipper of the Creator. Without Him there is nothing, all truly all is in vain. Happy Sunday, and I have to say I feel better already. Thank you Lord for all the Calvins, Wesleys, Luthers, Witness, etc. Praise God You are good, and from creation to restoration You are in control. That is the gospel of God (Jesus, from eternity to eternity) and what is believing in Him than just that.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 21:10

Genesis 21:14

Genesis 21:16

Study 14 Genesis 20:1-21:21
Abraham and Abimelech
The Birth of Isaac
Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away

1) What may we learn from Gen. 20 of the weakness of human nature, even in a beleiver, and of God's protecting care and saving grace? Cf. Ps. 94:18; Mk. 14:38; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Tim. 2:13.

2) Gen. 21:1-7. "Isaac" means "laughter". What is the difference between Sarah's laughter in 18:12 and in 21:6? How was the change brought about? See also 17:17-19. To what 2 complimentary truths did the name Isaac thus bear witness? Cf. Mt. 19:26.

3) Gen. 21:8-21. From what was Ishmael cast out and why? Cf. Rom. 9:6-9; Gal. 4:28-30. Why did God nevertheless hear Ishmael's voice, and grant him His blessing and His presence?

Notes.
1) 20:18. The use here of God's covenant name "Lord" or "Jehovah" is significant. It was He who intervened to preserve Sarah as the intended mother of the promised son. Contrast 21:17-20, where we read that "God", not "the Lord", heard Ishmael's voice, etc.

2) 21:9. "Playing with": the sence is probably better conveyed by the AV and RV "mocking". Ishmael did not laugh like Sarah; he made fun. Thus Isaac, the object of Holy laughter, was made the butt of unholy mockery.

Moving on...

1)Psalm 94:18
18 When I said, "My foot is slipping,"
your love, O LORD, supported me.
Mark 14:38
38Watch and pray so that you will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak."
1 Corinthians 10:12
12So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
2 Timothy 2:13
13if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Our weaknesses and His care and grace are the perfect balance in that in our weakness He is made strong. Always leaning on Him we have His strength but standing firm on my own is an impossibility.

2)(a)Genesis 18:12
12 So Sarah laughed to herself as she thought, "After I am worn out and my master [a] is old, will I now have this pleasure?"
Genesis 21:6
6 Sarah said, "God has brought me laughter, and everyone who hears about this will laugh with me."

Sarah's first laugh was a mockery of God's words / that turned to a fulfillment.

(b) Genesis 17:17-19 Law VS Grace
17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"
19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. [a] I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

The seed of the promise was to come thru Sarah (grace) and not Hagar (law)
Hagar and Sarah
Gal.4:21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

NOTE
20:18. The use here of God's covenant name "Lord" or "Jehovah" is significant. It was He who intervened to preserve Sarah as the intended mother of the promised son. Contrast 21:17-20, where we read that "God", not "the Lord", heard Ishmael's voice, etc.

God's presevation of the mother of the intended seed. (Note how Sarah was a mother of one, but Mary had many children.)

Genesis 20:18
18 for the LORD had closed up every womb in Abimelech's household because of Abraham's wife Sarah.
Genesis 21:17-20

17 God heard the boy crying, and the angel of God called to Hagar from heaven and said to her, "What is the matter, Hagar? Do not be afraid; God has heard the boy crying as he lies there. 18 Lift the boy up and take him by the hand, for I will make him into a great nation." 19 Then God opened her eyes and she saw a well of water. So she went and filled the skin with water and gave the boy a drink.
20 God was with the boy as he grew up. He lived in the desert and became an archer.

God= the creator
Lord= relationship

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I trust that everyone has noticed that the seeds of LAW AND GRACE are buried in this lesson. I believe it's the single most important thing that we, as Christians, should be aware of. I really have no idea how to interpret this in the volume that I think God would have us know it so I will leave it up to you. "I'd love to change the world, but I don't know what to do. So I'm leaving it up to you." Still true, 10 yrs. after.

Artist: Ten Years After Lyrics
Song: I'd Love to Change the World Lyrics


Everywhere is freaks and hairies
Dykes and fairies, tell me where is sanity
Tax the rich, feed the poor
Till there are no rich no more?

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

Population keeps on breeding
Nation bleeding, still more feeding economy
Life is funny, skies are sunny
Bees make honey, who needs money, Monopoly

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

World pollution, there's no solution
Institution, electrocution
Just black and white, rich or poor
Them and us, stop the war

I'd love to change the world
But I don't know what to do
So I'll leave it up to you

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 22:6

Genesis 22:11

Study 15 Genesis 21:22-22:24
The Treaty at Beersheba
Abraham Tested
Nahor's Sons

1) Gen. 22. In what ways was the command of verse 2 a most severe test of Abraham's faith in God. Note the significance of the comment in Heb. 11:17-18. Whence did Abraham expect to get, and where did he expect to find, the answer to the questions he could not answer? How did his faith express itself? Cf. Jas. 2:20-24.

2) Gen. 21:22-34. What was it about Abraham that made Abemilech believe that a covenent which would be kept was a serious possibility? Do we covet similar evidences in our lives which make others trust us and reverence our God? Cf. Matt. 5:16; 1 Pet. 2:12.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Honestly I don't/didn't think you mislead anyone. The concern was someone would/might accept lee as a minister of truth, even in part, which he is not, as seen on the links provided earlier. Or that someone would reject the good teaching (of Nee in line with Scripture) because they knew or heard about Lee's and didn't know the connection -- like a warning about "bridge out ahead".
I think I liked some of the books living stream ministries altered but was troubled by parts of them without knowing why, they are so subtle. (anything by lee or living stream should be avoided due to their many errors; see the links for details)
!

I don't think you realize that Witness Lee was the sole person responsible for the publications of Watchman Nee's books from the very beginning of Watchman Nee's ministry. so all of his books have been his responsibility. I don't believe any are w/o his sole influence with the exception of Song of Solomon to my knowledge. Living Stream ministry is the publication of Witness Lee's books that he has added Watchman Nee's book that he had previously published himself in the first editions. So I hope you see how unvalidated that is. Shalom and God bless. I honestly believe you didn't know that but the acusations are so untrue

I prefer not to go into this any more but if books are altered (?) iow he would be altering his own work.

edit.. since his death in 1995 at the age of 84(?) he has appx less than 30-50 churches in North America, I was told, and mostly all of their new churches are started in India b/c there is no interest here. So they're hardly a threat. Too bad.

Also I have never read any Witness Lee's books other than to look up passages on the net, but I have his "Recovery Bible w/ notes" and I listen to his program quite often both of which I enjoy thoughly. His Nee books I haven't compared (I,ve never heard of that before now) b/c mine aren't from lsm. But I will look into it for sure. merci!

Ok, last edit, I already know and pointed out what he altered, The accent on the "churchlife".

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Study 15 Genesis 21:22-22:24
The Treaty at Beersheba
Abraham Tested
Nahor's Sons
1) Gen. 22. In what ways was the command of verse 2 a most severe test of Abraham's faith in God. Note the significance of the comment in Heb. 11:17-18. Whence did Abraham expect to get, and where did he expect to find, the answer to the questions he could not answer? How did his faith express itself? Cf. Jas. 2:20-24.

I think the outstanding thing about Abraham was that he knew God could not go back on His word. He was told by God to do something that made absolutely no sence in the context of what God had already told him, but he did it anyway, even telling his son that it was just a test. He said God would provide the sacrafice. But no matter he was following God to the best of his ability.
James 2:20-24 (The Message)
19-20Do I hear you professing to believe in the one and only God, but then observe you complacently sitting back as if you had done something wonderful? That's just great. Demons do that, but what good does it do them? Use your heads! Do you suppose for a minute that you can cut faith and works in two and not end up with a corpse on your hands?
21-24Wasn't our ancestor Abraham "made right with God by works" when he placed his son Isaac on the sacrificial altar? Isn't it obvious that faith and works are yoked partners, that faith expresses itself in works? That the works are "works of faith"? The full meaning of "believe" in the Scripture sentence, "Abraham believed God and was set right with God," includes his action. It's that mesh of believing and acting that got Abraham named "God's friend." Is it not evident that a person is made right with God not by a barren faith but by faith fruitful in works?

2) Gen. 21:22-34. What was it about Abraham that made Abemilech believe that a covenent which would be kept was a serious possibility? Do we covet similar evidences in our lives which make others trust us and reverence our God? Cf. Matt. 5:16; 1 Pet. 2:12.
1 Peter 2:12 (The Message)
11-12Friends, this world is not your home, so don't make yourselves cozy in it. Don't indulge your ego at the expense of your soul. Live an exemplary life among the natives so that your actions will refute their prejudices. Then they'll be won over to God's side and be there to join in the celebration when he arrives.

I don't think Abemilec thought a treaty was nec. .....

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 23:19

Study 16 Genesis 23
The Death of Sarah

1) What features in Abraham's character does the story of this chapter bring out? With verse 4 cf. Heb. 11:9,10,13-16. What may we learn from his example concerning the right way to to face both life and death?

2) What is Sarah's character as shown in Gen. Cf. Heb. 11:11; 1 Pet. 3: 5-6. How many wives today become what she calls :her children"?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

2) What is Sarah's character as shown in Gen. Cf. Heb. 11:11; 1 Pet. 3: 5-6. How many wives today become what she calls :her children"?

2)Hebrews 11:11
11By faith Abraham, even though he was past age—and Sarah herself was barren—was enabled to become a father because he considered him faithful who had made the promise.

I see this as God refering to them both as one, just as Adam/Eve are Adam male/female.

Genesis 1:27
27So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Genesis 5:2
2Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created

Sarah is not only the representative of grace:

The seed of the promise was to come thru Sarah (grace) and not Hagar (law)

Hagar and Sarah
Gal.4:21Tell me, you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? 22For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.

24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."

28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

But she is also representative of the follower of the Lord:

1 Peter 3:5-6
5For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful. They were submissive to their own husbands, 6like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her master. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear.

We, as true overcomers, the bride, are the daughter's of Sarah:

Gal. 4:28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.


1) What features in Abraham's character does the story of this chapter bring out? With verse 4 cf. Heb. 11:9,10,13-16.

All of these these apply to both Abraham and Sarah:

1)Genesis 23:4
4I am a stranger and a sojourner with you: give me a possession of a buryingplace with you, that I may bury my dead out of my sight.

Hebrews 11:9; Hebrews 11:10; Hebrews 11:13-16
9By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise
10For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

13These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Heb 11:15And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Galatians 3:8
8The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: "All nations will be blessed through you."

They were not compelled to be strangers or pilgrims or to leave their native city for for a heavenly city or country. They had the gospel (Gal 3:8) and knew that their right to the promises came by utter renounciation of this world and it's ways, and consecration to obey the One who made the promises.
They could have returned at any time to the place God called them out of, but they were true to Him, and their faith in eternal and spiritual things. (Heb. 11:8-16)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 24:17

Genesis 24:18

Study 17 Gen 24:1-60
Isaac and Rebekah

1) What can we learn from the attitude of Abraham's servant in his relation to (a) his master, and (b) the task given to him? What were his confidence and concern? Cf. Col. 3:22-24.

2) Examine the manner in which the servant made his choice, and the test he employed. Of what did he become particularly conscious? Can we learn from this about choosing a life-partner?

3) What picture do we get of Rebekah?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

This topic is always related to Sarah, so before going on:
A note on submission that I pulled from my response on another thread by that name..
I think the family is in minature a pattern of how God wants us to behave toward Him. We, as believers, are to be the bride and be submissive to Him as the groom,.. to the extent of bringing our questions to Him, respect Him and behave on a 24/7 basis the way we know (and have been trained in society to behave, so that we are w/o excuse)) toward Him.
We've also been taught how much He loves us so we need to respect Him. If we stop to think what kind of a wife we are to Him everyday I'm sure we're all put to shame.
But it's a pattern we all understand. Just think, the angels are going to have to step down to us so maybe we should show them a good example.
Fearful obedience is never submission. Submission is a dignified observance of God's prescribed way.
IE: When the husband goes away for a month they both know darn well she can take care of the farm, but when he returns she steps down and gives him place, usually more than happy to do so, too. IMO

You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 1 Pet. 3:6b

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 25:65

Study 18 Genesis 24:61-25:34
Isaac and Rebekah
The Death of Abraham
Ishmael's Sons
Jacob and Esau

1) What light do we get from this portion of the kind of man Isaac was? See 24:63-67; 25:28.

2) Contrast Jacob and Esua, as described in 25:27-34, in their habits, character and spiritual outlook. What lesson is drawn in Heb. 12:14-17 of Esua's conduct in regard to his birthright?

3) Review Abraham's life. What gives him an outstanding place in world history and makes him a conspicuous example to us all? Cf. Is. 41:8; Gal. 3:9,29.

 

[Maharg]

Hopefully, I've undersood the rules correctly . . . I'm going to attempt questions 1 and 2.

1. Isaac seems to be someone who is attracted to the nature around him. He went into a field to meditate and he appreciated the food that comes from hunting - eating game, rather than lamb, for example. He also seems to be sensitive - being comforted about his mother's death by getting married. Perhaps he was fickle in a sense that he loved one of his sons because he brought him food.

2. Jacob seems to be much quieter and reflective. However, he also is deceptive, and perhaps motivated by greed - wanting the birthright which was not rightfully his. Esau is more of an active sort of person, and motivated by his physical needs - he was prepared to sell his borthright simply for a meal. Esau is iedntified as godless - and not able to receive the blessing to which he should have been entitled because of his actions.

I find this puzzling in a sense, that Jacob should obtain God's blessing through deception and yet Esau should lose it through not having proper respect for the blessing to which he was due. I feel sad for Esau.

It does teach us that if we are not able to hold off on perhaps earthly desires in order to pursue God that we will lose the blessings that He has in store for us. If we are not seeking after God with all our hearts, we are really rejecting the blessings He has for us, because we are not aware of how He will bless us and are not moving towards that blessing.