"study The Scripture"

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I can't seem to find where I have the list of tribes and where they're descended from but it's an interesting study to search out. Lot's 2 decsendents, coming from his daughters, were enemies the Israelis were forever fighting. (God told Abram to leave Ur and not to take any with him, so they should never have happened) And Ishmael's descendants should never have happened according to God's plan. No one knows where the Philistines came from but they were giants and should have gone in the flood. Abraham was a father of many nations, for sure. And just how did he have all those kids after Sarah died?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

simple

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It seems strange to me that God granted Abraham his obvious request of saving the life of Lot (I would think that was his main intention) and God did indeed save him. And yet the Edonites etc. were the results.
God had told Abram "go away from your country, your kin, and your father's house" but brought Lot anyway and here he was begging for his life to God.
It brings me to the theory of "mother's prayers" for lack of a better term. I honestly believe that there will be so many that will be literally prayed into the millenium. Given that extra chance they wouldn't have been given otherwise b/c someone was begging for them to be saved. I think that's the message here, that our words count and God gives those favors to His friends.
The 1000 yrs. may turn them all into pillars of hellfire in the end but they get that second chance. 1000 yrs is like the lifetime of Adam's day anyway so...!?! Just a thought.

 

[pilgrimage]

Note.
Verses 23-25. Note that in praying for Lot and for Sodom Abraham appealed not to God's special covenant mercy or faithfulness, but to His universal rihjteous judgement.

Two types of judgement= covenent and universal, God deals with His people, through the covenent but Lot was saved from a different type. I can see that.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 19:24

Genesis 19:26

Study 13 Genesis 19
Sodom and Gomorrah Destroyed
Lot and His Daughters

1) What is revealed in this chapter about (a) the evil latent in the heart of mankind, (b) the certainty of divine judgement, (c) the priority of divine mercy, (d) the urgency of immediate action while there is time to escape. Cf. Lk. 17:23-32; 2 Pet. 2:6; Jude 7.

2) What did Lot gain for himself and his family by the association with Sodom? In what ways should he be a warning to us?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It seems strange to me that God granted Abraham his obvious request of saving the life of Lot (I would think that was his main intention) and God did indeed save him. And yet the Edonites etc. were the results.
God had told Abram "go away from your country, your kin, and your father's house" but brought Lot anyway and here he was begging for his life to God.
It brings me to the theory of "mother's prayers" for lack of a better term. I honestly believe that there will be so many that will be literally prayed into the millenium. Given that extra chance they wouldn't have been given otherwise b/c someone was begging for them to be saved. I think that's the message here, that our words count and God gives those favors to His friends.
The 1000 yrs. may turn them all into pillars of hellfire in the end but they get that second chance. 1000 yrs is like the lifetime of Adam's day anyway so...!?! Just a thought.

Just to clarify this thought: God has no other offer for us but eternal life.
His salvation comes only thru the Lord Jesus Christ.
Eternity doesn't start until the great white throne has been dealt with.
The age of grace is followed by the age of ?, more grace.

Ephesians 2:7
7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus.
Ephesians 3:11
11according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The Sheep and the Goats
31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.

Hebrews 1:14
14Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation

Revelation 20
The Thousand Years
1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. 2He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.
4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
Satan's Doom
7When the thousand years are over, Satan will be released from his prison 8and will go out to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth—Gog and Magog—to gather them for battle. In number they are like the sand on the seashore. 9They marched across the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of God's people, the city he loves. But fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Zechariah 14
The LORD Comes and Reigns
1 A day of the LORD is coming when your plunder will be divided among you.
2 I will gather all the nations to Jerusalem to fight against it; the city will be captured, the houses ransacked, and the women raped. Half of the city will go into exile, but the rest of the people will not be taken from the city.
3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights in the day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south. 5 You will flee by my mountain valley, for it will extend to Azel. You will flee as you fled from the earthquake [a] in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.
6 On that day there will be no light, no cold or frost. 7 It will be a unique day, without daytime or nighttime—a day known to the LORD. When evening comes, there will be light.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half to the eastern sea and half to the western sea, [c] in summer and in winter.
9 The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name. 10 The whole land, from Geba to Rimmon, south of Jerusalem, will become like the Arabah. But Jerusalem will be raised up and remain in its place, from the Benjamin Gate to the site of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses. 11 It will be inhabited; never again will it be destroyed. Jerusalem will be secure.
12 This is the plague with which the LORD will strike all the nations that fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh will rot while they are still standing on their feet, their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongues will rot in their mouths. 13 On that day men will be stricken by the LORD with great panic. Each man will seize the hand of another, and they will attack each other. 14 Judah too will fight at Jerusalem. The wealth of all the surrounding nations will be collected—great quantities of gold and silver and clothing. 15 A similar plague will strike the horses and mules, the camels and donkeys, and all the animals in those camps.
16 Then the survivors from all the nations that have attacked Jerusalem will go up year after year to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, and to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 If any of the peoples of the earth do not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD Almighty, they will have no rain. 18 If the Egyptian people do not go up and take part, they will have no rain. The LORD [d] will bring on them the plague he inflicts on the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles.
20 On that dayHOLY TO THE LORD will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, and the cooking pots in the LORD's house will be like the sacred bowls in front of the altar. 21 Every pot in Jerusalem and Judah will be holy to the LORD Almighty, and all who come to sacrifice will take some of the pots and cook in them. And on that day there will no longer be a Canaanite [e] in the house of the LORD Almighty.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

1) What is revealed in this chapter about (a) the evil latent in the heart of mankind, (b) the certainty of divine judgement, (c) the priority of divine mercy, (d) the urgency of immediate action while there is time to escape. Cf. Lk. 17:23-32; 2 Pet. 2:6; Jude 7.

Luke 17:28"It was the same in the days of Lot. People were eating and drinking, buying and selling, planting and building. 29But the day Lot left Sodom, fire and sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. 30"It will be just like this on the day the Son of Man is revealed. 31On that day no one who is on the roof of his house, with his goods inside, should go down to get them. Likewise, no one in the field should go back for anything. 32Remember Lot's wife!

2 Peter 2:6-10
6if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8(for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.[a] 10This is especially true of those who follow the corrupt desire of the sinful nature and despise authority

Jude 1:7
7In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

Pretty much speaks for itself

2) What did Lot gain for himself and his family by the association with Sodom? In what ways should he be a warning to us?

He gained corruption, sexual immorality and loss from his association with Sodom.

36 So both of Lot's daughters became pregnant by their father. 37 The older daughter had a son, and she named him Moab [g] ; he is the father of the Moabites of today. 38 The younger daughter also had a son, and she named him Ben-Ammi [h] ; he is the father of the Ammonites of today.

Moabites and Ammonites not Edomites blush
This is what the Lord has to say about them:

Deuteronomy 23:3
3 No Ammonite or Moabite or any of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD, even down to the tenth generation.

Nehemiah 13
Nehemiah's Final Reforms
1 On that day the Book of Moses was read aloud in the hearing of the people and there it was found written that no Ammonite or Moabite should ever be admitted into the assembly of God,

Ezra 9
Ezra's Prayer About Intermarriage
1 After these things had been done, the leaders came to me and said, "The people of Israel, including the priests and the Levites, have not kept themselves separate from the neighboring peoples with their detestable practices, like those of the Canaanites, Hittites, Perizzites, Jebusites, Ammonites, Moabites, Egyptians and Amorites. 2 They have taken some of their daughters as wives for themselves and their sons, and have mingled the holy race with the peoples around them. And the leaders and officials have led the way in this unfaithfulness
13 "What has happened to us is a result of our evil deeds and our great guilt, and yet, our God, you have punished us less than our sins have deserved and have given us a remnant like this. 14 Shall we again break your commands and intermarry with the peoples who commit such detestable practices? Would you not be angry enough with us to destroy us, leaving us no remnant or survivor? 15 O LORD, God of Israel, you are righteous! We are left this day as a remnant. Here we are before you in our guilt, though because of it not one of us can stand in your presence."

BTW Ruth was a Moabite

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Genesis 21:10

Genesis 21:14

Genesis 21:16

Study 14 Genesis 20:1-21:21
Abraham and Abimelech
The Birth of Isaac
Hagar and Ishmael Sent Away

1) What may we learn from Gen. 20 of the weakness of human nature, even in a beleiver, and of God's protecting care and saving grace? Cf. Ps. 94:18; Mk. 14:38; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Tim. 2:13.

2) Gen. 21:1-7. "Isaac" means "laughter". What is the difference between Sarah's laughter in 18:12 and in 21:6? How was the change brought about? See also 17:17-19. To what 2 complimentary truths did the name Isaac thus bear witness? Cf. Mt. 19:26.

3) Gen. 21:8-21. From what was Ishmael cast out and why? Cf. Rom. 9:6-9; Gal. 4:28-30. Why did God nevertheless hear Ishmael's voice, and grant him His blessing and His presence?

Notes.
1) 20:18. The use here of God's covenant name "Lord" or "Jehovah" is significant. It was He who intervened to preserve Sarah as the intended mother of the promised son. Contrast 21:17-20, where we read that "God", not "the Lord", heard Ishmael's voice, etc.

2) 21:9. "Playing with": the sence is probably better conveyed by the AV and RV "mocking". Ishmael did not laugh like Sarah; he made fun. Thus Isaac, the object of Holy laughter, was made the butt of unholy mockery.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Hospitality: a suggestion or a command?
Dictionary definition= Kindness in welcoming guests or strangers
Who is the guest? It sounds strikingly familiar to who is our neighbour?

The rich man and Lazareth is a story about a rich man who wasn't bad, didn't get his riches illegally, he only didn't look after a begger who was within his gates. It wasn't something he felt responsible for but God held him accountable. It was enough to put a huge gap between the destinies of the two.

The bridegroom tells us come out from our enclosure where we love to be in His company but refuse to partake in His encounters with the world.

It's so easy for us to stay in our little circle that we percieve ourselves to be in, but God has us in a much larger environment that we are ultimately responsible for. Blinders are for keeping our eyes on Jesus and off the world, not for blinding us to the things that the Lord wants us to experience. Not only is Jesus calling us to a larger experience of Him but He promises us that some of our companions may be angels themself.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the rich man was bad.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I see so many threads on "why does God allow this to happen" or "a pedifile in the church" or "how can God be love if so much bad goes on and He does nothing"

We are His hands and feet. That's how He operates in this world and how He puts His hedges in place to protect and act for Him. But very few stand in God's stead, so things happen. That's why I think we do more to hinder God by not doing what we know He wants so that where God wants to block evil we let it go on it's destructive way.
Taking care of the things in my back yard and you take care of your things then God's work is being done. There really is no other reason for us to be here. IMHO

Just out of left field, when God created us He had a problem on His hands. Evil. He could have squashed it like a bug but what good would that do for all His other creatures. Overcomers aren't overcoming themselves, which is partly it b/c they overcome the evil in there own their lives but ultimately put an end to Lucifer/turned Satan. We are His to use to get rid of evil but w/o our love, compassion, hospitality, etc. were just promoting evil and useless to Him. Again JMHO

 

[abigale]

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The battle belongs to the Lord but we are called to fight.

Revelation 12:7
Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels.

War always will rage between the two great sovereignties until one or other be crushed. Peace between good and evil is an impossibility; the very pretence of it would, in fact, be the triumph of the powers of darkness. Michael will always fight; his holy soul is vexed with sin, and will not endure it. Jesus will always be the dragon's foe, and that not in a quiet sense, but actively, vigorously, with full determination to exterminate evil.

All His servants, whether angels in heaven or messengers on earth, will and must fight; they are born to be warriors-at the cross they enter into covenant never to make truce with evil; they are a warlike company, firm in defence and fierce in attack.

The duty of every soldier in the army of the Lord is daily, with all his heart, and soul, and strength, to fight against the dragon. The dragon and his angels will not decline the affray; they are incessant in their onslaughts, sparing no weapon, fair or foul.

We are foolish to expect to serve God without opposition: the more zealous we are, the more sure are we to be assailed by the myrmidons of hell.
The church may become slothful, but not so her great antagonist; his restless spirit never suffers the war to pause; he hates the woman's seed, and would fain devour the church if he could.

The servants of Satan partake much of the old dragon's energy, and are usually an active race. War rages all around, and to dream of peace is dangerous and futile.
Glory be to God, we know the end of the war. The great dragon shall be cast out and for ever destroyed, while Jesus and they who are with Him shall receive the crown. Let us sharpen our swords to-night, and pray the Holy Spirit to nerve our arms for the conflict. Never battle so important, never crown so glorious. Every man to his post, ye warriors of the cross, and may the Lord tread Satan under your feet shortly!

What are the weopons we're to use but the Word of God but to be in God is to be love.

in the wise words of doc329

God gives us the commandment to love.

We are to love God, and we are to love God by loving other people.
We are to be vessels of God's love to our neighbor; this allows God to demonstrate His love through us.
All of God's word is about love; it is about what love is, and who love is. God is love.
The Bible reveals love to us, the Bible reveals God to us. When we know God, we know love.
God desires that we express our love to Him through obeying His voice, this shows Him that we love
and trust Him, and this is the beginning of true worship.

All of this leds back to the simple command to love your neighbour and to be hospitable. Not only to entertain strangers but as Abraham experienced being a friend of God with His presence actually with Him in full knowledge.

**Note also Abraham's full participation in the fight against evil to the point of having a say in the outcome, and in his case seemingly prolonging the anguish.**

Compare this to John asking for fire to be sent from heaven to destroy the Samaritan village and Jesus tells him he knows not what manner of spirit he is speaking in. It seems to me the difference is that John spoke from pride/self !?!? and not for any reason that God would apply !?!? Hmn...there's a lesson in there....

Also..and most importantly...look what that Samaritan village missed out on by not entertaining strangers. God in human form coming to see them!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Last night the storm filled the bluejay feeder with water and this morning all they had was a frozen pond of feed. When I drew the blinds this morning the bluejay was sitting w/o moving and looking from me to the feeder.
I have a stray cat that wouldn't leave, a wild tom, that all it was doing was giving my cat fleas and beating it up for it's food. So I started feeding it food with garlic and brewers yeast, now neither one has fleas. He even lets me touch him now and then.
I had to rig a new feeder for the jay's b/c I'd given the covered feeder away since I have a covered porch. I had the time but even if I didn't I would have made the time.
Sometimes I don't get my bills paid on time but I do what I can.
They look to me now and it's a nice feeling. I think anyone who takes delight in the tragety of others has something wrong with them. Ok, it took my cat getting fleas before I'd feed that tom,( I could have shot him, this is the bush and sadly the way things sometimes are handled) but I'm sure glad now that I did. It's so nice to see him healthy instead of as a mangy little pest.( He was very beat up, I really think this was his home and the last people left him here b/c he wouldn't go away) He's really added to my life in many ways.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

A whatever weekend topic ~ Evolution vs Creation~
The seed that grew it all/ the only thing not discussed so far.
I don't think there is any controversy between any of it (the gap theory), except kind producing after it's own kind, adapting excepted.
B/c it's such a long involved explaination I'll just give a site that presents it from a negative veiw, but I think scripture bears it out.
http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c003.html
Scripture comes up about it alot.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Summary Abraham/new believer.
Out of sheer laziness I just want us to catch up with Abraham before going on to Isaac by giving again Witness Lee's (student of Watchman Nee) account.
The seeds in Genesis are many, I can't wait to get back to Luke, 6 more studies to go...

LIVING IN FELLOWSHIP WITH GOD
THE HIDDEN WEAKNESS AND
A SHAMEFUL INTERCESSION
The Bible is an honest book. After Genesis 18 and 19, in which we see Abraham's high attainment in his experience of God, there is a record of his weakness in Genesis 20. Can you believe that after having such intimate fellowship with God and after making such a glorious intercession, Abraham could have the experience recorded in chapter twenty?

It is difficult to believe and understand how Abraham could have shown such weakness. Once again we see that the Bible is not man-made. If it were of human manufacture, the writer would not have included this record of Abraham's weakness and shortcomings. But the Bible is honest and it has Genesis 20 as part of the divine record.
6) The Hidden Weakness and
a Shameful Intercession

When I was young, I appreciated chapters eighteen, twenty-one, twenty-two, and twenty-four, but I had no interest in chapter twenty. In this chapter two main things are recorded: the hidden weakness and a shameful intercession. Abraham, a man of God, had a weakness hidden deep within him. While in chapter eighteen he made a glorious intercession, in chapter twenty we find the record of a shameful one.

a) The Hidden Weakness
(1) Journeying toward the South
Let us first consider Abraham's hidden weakness (20:1-16). In verse 1 we are told that "Abraham journeyed from thence toward the south country." Abraham's journeying toward the south meant that he had left the standing of fellowship at the oaks of Mamre in Hebron. He should have remained in Hebron because there he had intimate fellowship with God. Nothing is better than this. It was not too long after he had intimate fellowship with God that he left Hebron and journeyed southward. Between the time the Lord spoke to Abraham regarding the birth of Isaac in 17:21 and 18:14 and the time of Isaac's birth in chapter twenty-one, there could not have been more than a year. Why did Abraham suddenly leave Hebron and journey toward the south during that year? In figure, south signifies easiness and north hardships. The south is warm and the north is cold, but God dwells in the north (Psa. 48:2; 75:6-7; Ezek. 1:4). In the north we have hardships with God's presence. In the south we have easiness, but without God's presence. There is no hint in Genesis 20 that God told Abraham to journey southward. In making this journey, Abraham acted on his own.

Abraham might have wanted to have a change and take a vacation. Although you may be enjoying the church life in ----, one day you may feel that you need a change and desire to journey southward to Mexico City. The church life is marvelous and we all enjoy it very much. But some may become a little bored and want to take a trip to Las Vegas. If you go to Las Vegas and meet someone there who asks about what you do at home, you will find it difficult to give him an honest answer. On two occasions, when Abraham was in such a situation, he was not truthful (cf. 12:9-12). In chapter twelve Abraham journeyed southward because there was a famine in the land.

That famine gave him an excuse for going southward to Egypt. But in this chapter Abraham had no excuse. He and his wife might have been bored and wanted a vacation. If they had remained by the oaks of Mamre in Hebron, Abraham would have had no need to lie. His lying was due to his wrong position. We see by this that the proper standing means a great deal. I do not believe that any brother can pray-read or give a living testimony in a casino in Las Vegas. He would not have the standing there to do such a thing.

In order to do anything for God, we must have the proper standing. When Abraham left the standing of intimate fellowship with God and journeyed southward, he lost God's presence. The Bible does not say that in the south country God appeared to Abraham, nor that Abraham erected an altar and called on the name of the Lord. He had altogether lost the proper standing on which he could have fellowship with God.

Young people, you must see that you need to stay in the right position. If you stay in the church, you will be kept and preserved. But if you journey southward, you will forsake the proper standing and lose God's presence. Spontaneously, your old man will return.

Before chapter twenty Abraham was circumcised. In chapter twenty, he should have been a circumcised person, not a natural person, for he had truly been dealt with by God. Some Christians claim that once they have experienced a certain blessing, they can no longer be in the flesh. But look at the example of Abraham. Although he had been circumcised both physically and spiritually, when he left the proper standing of fellowship with God, he was in the flesh again.

After having such a high attainment in his experience with God, Abraham, the father of faith, acted the same as he did in Genesis 12, more than twenty years before. By this we see that as long as we are still in the old creation we are capable of doing anything in the flesh. If we do not remain in fellowship with God, we can do the same things that the worldly people do. Do not say that because you have been regenerated, have experienced the baptism of the Spirit, or have had a second blessing, you can no longer be in the flesh. However many are the blessings that you have received from God, if you do not remain in fellowship with Him, you will be in the flesh.

Your experience proves that this is true.
We should never have any confidence in our self. The self is absolutely untrustworthy. We must put our trust in the presence of the Lord, telling Him, "Lord, if You take Your presence away from me, I am just a dog. But I praise You that in Your presence I'm a saint, one of the people of God." How much God's presence means to us! When Abraham was bringing God on His way in chapter eighteen, he was a wonderful saint, a man who could stand before God and talk face to face with Him as with an intimate friend. But in chapter twenty this wonderful person became very mean. After he had left the standing of fellowship with God, he could lie at the sacrifice of his wife. It seems unbelievable, but he did it. If we consider our past experience, we shall find that at least a few times we have done the same kind of thing. This shows us the importance of remaining in the presence of God. Our protection is not our self; it is His presence.

Abraham walked away just like Jacob is going to do as well as David. But we can't stay away. "Abide in me" Jesus says. The spiritual Bethel.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Watchman Nee was a very humble teacher, remained in Messiah's Life until his death, and his church is the fastest growing in the world in china (the house churches, not a denomination).

Witness lee used to be one of Nee's students, but went to the darkside = witness lee sometime began teaching another gospel and IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY, even in his translations of Watchman Nee.
lsm, living stream publishers, are not accurate in publishing anything apparently, and have corrupted, usually subtly, the truth and watchman nee's teachings.

for very detailed comparisons of what is really from watchman nee
and what watchman nee had nothing to do with

see :
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm

and :
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm


summary: watchman nee is one of the greatest teachers in the last century, and by exalting and preaching Christ crucified in all grace and truth and power was used by Yahweh remarkably in a way very few have ever been (who else has been imitated/counterfeiteded so much ?)
witness lee is not to be trusted.
living stream ministry or publishers is not to be trusted.

Do not read lsm or wl publications until after you have read watchman nees original and true books. If you read the distorted ones first it will mess you up. See the links above to tell the difference.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Watchman Nee was a very humble teacher, remained in Messiah's Life until his death, and his church is the fastest growing in the world in china (the house churches, not a denomination).

Witness lee used to be one of Nee's students, but went to the darkside = witness lee sometime began teaching another gospel and IS NOT TRUSTWORTHY, even in his translations of Watchman Nee.
lsm, living stream publishers, are not accurate in publishing anything apparently, and have corrupted, usually subtly, the truth and watchman nee's teachings.

for very detailed comparisons of what is really from watchman nee
and what watchman nee had nothing to do with

see :
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Watchman_Nee.htm

and :
http://www3.telus.net/trbrooks/Misreading.htm


summary: watchman nee is one of the greatest teachers in the last century, and by exalting and preaching Christ crucified in all grace and truth and power was used by Yahweh remarkably in a way very few have ever been (who else has been imitated/counterfeiteded so much ?)
witness lee is not to be trusted.
living stream ministry or publishers is not to be trusted.

Do not read lsm or wl publications until after you have read watchman nees original and true books. If you read the distorted ones first it will mess you up. See the links above to tell the difference.

I see many differences in watchman vs witness teachings. It's explained best when you see song of solomon in the 2 translations. Watchman Nee teaches to the overcomer and Witness Lee teaches to the new man IMO.
However Watchman Nee stands on the shoulders of the Brethern and numerous others and Witness Lee has the same background.
For 30 yrs WL was WN's publicist and nothing he said differentiated from WN's teachings. When he went on his own his mission seemed to be to form a "churchlife" which is correct when it's defined "bodylife" but incorrect when meaning a church group and building.
Other than that his learning is derived from WN and no one else carries his teaching as well.
False teacing is never a taking away from the truth but an adding to, and he added "my church only" which in a sence preserved WN's teaching, too.
Iow it's off by just yah much, but what isn't. Throwing out the bath water with the bath is not my way. I have gleaned from nearly every teaching but the trick is to sort gospel from manmade idn't it.

Also I'm sure lsm would disown me in a flash b/c I don't follow their or anyone elses teaching as a science. I use examples where they fit. Judge for yourself. But don't condemn w/o a reason and only a heresay.

And if I had WN's writings as easily available I would certainly use his but alas not so...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the exposure of leeism isn't based on heresay, as many members have posted in other threads,
and as watchman nee's reputation was largely diminished by those who didn't /don't separate the true from the false.
i went to one of lee's churches in tulsa - they are adamently opposed to self-sacrifice and to being generous to the poor and to serving others (in tulsa) (in san diego I met a wonderful family in a local church, decades ago, that exemplified Yahshua's life simply and graciously; i didn't know about leeism then and don't know if that church was in it )
....
witness lee and his ilk are grossly unChristlike if the details of their lives and actions and writings are true in the above links, and if the church in tulsa is an example of their fruit..
they don't bear the life of Christ in their own as watchman nee did until his death.
people who are searching for the truth, Yahweh will protect according to His Word. and , according to His Word, those who are teaching another gospel are to be exposed openly, not quietly accomodated.

I am attempting to get a lot of watchman nees unaltered books, and will be happy to pass some on as able to you if you want them.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

the exposure of leeism isn't based on heresay, as many members have posted in other threads,
and as watchman nee's reputation was largely diminished by those who didn't /don't separate the true from the false.
i went to one of lee's churches in tulsa - they are adamently opposed to self-sacrifice and to being generous to the poor and to serving others (in tulsa) (in san diego I met a wonderful family in a local church, decades ago, that exemplified Yahshua's life simply and graciously; i didn't know about leeism then and don't know if that church was in it )
....
witness lee and his ilk are grossly unChristlike if the details of their lives and actions and writings are true in the above links, and if the church in tulsa is an example of their fruit..
they don't bear the life of Christ in their own as watchman nee did until his death.
people who are searching for the truth, Yahweh will protect according to His Word. and , according to His Word, those who are teaching another gospel are to be exposed openly, not quietly accomodated.

I am attempting to get a lot of watchman nees unaltered books, and will be happy to pass some on as able to you if you want them.

Thank you, I have many of his books and I would be grateful if you point out where I mislead in any of the teachings I have passed on. No matter where they come from. So far I don't think I have done that. I do believe in revealing my sources and have named numerous, Lee being one of many. If you don't want to expose yourself to any of his words I always name the source before the quote.