Study question for all

[Southernscotty]

I am in an intense study on Revelation, The Old testament saints "or" New testament being the 24 Elders, I do believe this is the raptured or "caught up" NT testament church, However it brings me to a question, "are the Old testament saints still in "paradise" [Abraham's bosom]or did Christ descend and take them to heaven at the resurrection?
I believe that Christ did descend and remove them to heaven; imo
but the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20:1-16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last. Has me wondering as well as a couple of opinions from others that I have heard.
What are some of your ideas here?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

There is an excellent study, but hard to accept because it undoes the damage tradition of men has done, and few bother to find out.

See e.w.bullingers pdf online free lazarus and the rich man (if it is still available).

Yahweh takes him from Genesis 1:1 through Revelation and reveals from His Word in complete harmony with all His Word what few people ever realize. (so many are content to not bother to change from tradition.)

 

[Noxot]

I see Abraham's bosom as a part of heaven though maybe a lower part. no telling what each saint is doing since life goes on and on. since it has been so long there is no telling what each saved soul is up to. even heaven reforms itself based on the conditions of the souls that make it up.

the universe is a certain kind of flowing of spirit and so the resurrection and the reign of God has to do with souls, not material kingdoms like caesar is concerned with. one could say that the resurrection is a more powerful flowing of the basic stuffs that make up the universe.

maybe the last are first in the sense that with more souls being born and united to God, things become better and better. also there is no one dead last than those in hell.

 

[Chinchilla]

I am in an intense study on Revelation, The Old testament saints "or" New testament being the 24 Elders, I do believe this is the raptured or "caught up" NT testament church, However it brings me to a question, "are the Old testament saints still in "paradise" [Abraham's bosom]or did Christ descend and take them to heaven at the resurrection?
I believe that Christ did descend and remove them to heaven; imo
but the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20:1-16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last. Has me wondering as well as a couple of opinions from others that I have heard.
What are some of your ideas here?

I thought that 12 from OT and 12 from NT , 12 Sons which gave us 12 tribes + 12 Apostles

It's my opinion not Scriptural


OT Saints are not in paradise .
That is Scriptural Matthew 27:52-53

 

[friend of]

maybe the last are first in the sense that with more souls being born and united to God, things become better and better. also there is no one dead last than those in hell.

The bible does say that judgement begins with the house of God.

 

[Chinchilla]

The bible does say that judgement begins with the house of God.

Which Judgement because there are three ?

 

[friend of]

It just says that the righteous are judged and chastised first. 1 Peter 4:17

For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

 

[Southernscotty]

I thought that 12 from OT and 12 from NT , 12 Sons which gave us 12 tribes + 12 Apostles

It's my opinion not Scriptural


OT Saints are not in paradise .
That is Scriptural Matthew 27:52-53

It seems the White raiment and crowns represents the NT believers. The greek word for crown seems to confirm this as it is the same. Rev 6:11 they are given a white robe and told to wait a little longer

 

[Chinchilla]

It seems the White raiment and crowns represents the NT believers. The greek word for crown seems to confirm this as it is the same. Rev 6:11 they are given a white robe and told to wait a little longer

But why 24 is the troubling part , Revelation is like 7 everywhere or 12 .

 

[Southernscotty]

I have to leave for tonight but I am anxious to look tomorrow at the answers. God bless you all :]

 

[drjean]

Hades was the place where the souls and the spirits of all humans went until the cross. Sheol (OT) and Hades (NT) were one and the same. There were 2 compartments one for the wicked and the other for the righteous. (Luke 26:22-23) Paradise being for the righteous.

You are correct in that Christ emptied the comfort side (paradise) when He resurrected.

The wicked side will be emptied on their Judgment Day... Revelation 20:13.

Those in white robes are the BRIDE of Christ. The believers during the time of Christ here on earth, and since during this age of grace, before the tribulation.


The 4 and 20 are not angels because "elders" always depict members of the human race. They are in resurrected bodies as they sit and spirits cannot sit. (Luke 24:39, 1 JOHN 3:2)

"Since the Judgment seat took place immediately after the COME UP HITHER of verse 1, these individuals are already wearing the crowns which they will place at the Masters feet in verse 11." JVIM.org

We cannot be sure whom these 24 are, though some believe they represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. Regardless, they represent the children of God in the presence of the Lord before the horrible Tribulation begins in chapter 6.

 

[SkyWriting]

I am in an intense study on Revelation, The Old testament saints "or" New testament being the 24 Elders, I do believe this is the raptured or "caught up" NT testament church, However it brings me to a question, "are the Old testament saints still in "paradise" [Abraham's bosom]or did Christ descend and take them to heaven at the resurrection?
I believe that Christ did descend and remove them to heaven; imo
but the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20:1-16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last. Has me wondering as well as a couple of opinions from others that I have heard.
What are some of your ideas here?

I'm not worried.

 

[Hank77]

I am in an intense study on Revelation, The Old testament saints "or" New testament being the 24 Elders, I do believe this is the raptured or "caught up" NT testament church, However it brings me to a question, "are the Old testament saints still in "paradise" [Abraham's bosom]or did Christ descend and take them to heaven at the resurrection?
I believe that Christ did descend and remove them to heaven; imo
but the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20:1-16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last. Has me wondering as well as a couple of opinions from others that I have heard.
What are some of your ideas here?

I too believe that Christ did take the OT saints to heaven.
I don't think the Matthew 20:1-16 parable is referring to the OT saints as being the last in the resurrection, if that is what you are wondering?

Anytime Jesus is speaking a parable my first thought is to remember He is speaking to Jews about Jews. Sometimes He is preparing them for the Gentile being brought into the kingdom that they thought was only for them. Why would they, Gentiles, be received the same salvation/reward, 'penny' as the Jews who had been His people all along.
I haven't been able to grasp 'the last first and the first last' saying though. It says the same at the end of Matt. 19.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[Anto9us]

Some say the 24 are based on the 24 'courses' of priests in OT. I have no idea on this.

 

[Ancient of Days]

I am in an intense study on Revelation, The Old testament saints "or" New testament being the 24 Elders, I do believe this is the raptured or "caught up" NT testament church, However it brings me to a question, "are the Old testament saints still in "paradise" [Abraham's bosom]or did Christ descend and take them to heaven at the resurrection?
I believe that Christ did descend and remove them to heaven; imo
but the parable of the laborers in Matthew 20:1-16 So the last will be first, and the first will be last. Has me wondering as well as a couple of opinions from others that I have heard.
What are some of your ideas here?

It is written: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men."

No one could enter into heaven before Christ. I believe God created a place for those who would inherit eternal life but died before his sacrifice. His blood had to cover the heavenly tabernacle: "A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man."

 

[Southernscotty]

Hades was the place where the souls and the spirits of all humans went until the cross. Sheol (OT) and Hades (NT) were one and the same. There were 2 compartments one for the wicked and the other for the righteous. (Luke 26:22-23) Paradise being for the righteous.

You are correct in that Christ emptied the comfort side (paradise) when He resurrected.

The wicked side will be emptied on their Judgment Day... Revelation 20:13.

Those in white robes are the BRIDE of Christ. The believers during the time of Christ here on earth, and since during this age of grace, before the tribulation.


The 4 and 20 are not angels because "elders" always depict members of the human race. They are in resurrected bodies as they sit and spirits cannot sit. (Luke 24:39, 1 JOHN 3:2)

"Since the Judgment seat took place immediately after the COME UP HITHER of verse 1, these individuals are already wearing the crowns which they will place at the Masters feet in verse 11." JVIM.org

We cannot be sure whom these 24 are, though some believe they represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. Regardless, they represent the children of God in the presence of the Lord before the horrible Tribulation begins in chapter 6.

I agree with you Is 5:14 Says Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it...So When Christ emptied Abraham Bosom, Hell was enlarged.

 

[Southernscotty]

Revelation 20 4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years“

Is the the OT souls as someone else is stating?

 

[Southernscotty]

Revelation 20 4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years“

Is the the OT souls as someone else is stating?

Then again Matt 27:52-53 The tombs also were opened. And many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised, 53 and coming out of the tombs after his resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many.
Seems to dismiss this," as there was a first resurrection of the saints when Jesus was crucified!!...

 

[Hank77]

Revelation 20 4-6 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years“

Is the the OT souls as someone else is stating?

I would add that I don't claim to really understand Revelation, I only offer theories about what it all might mean.

Mat 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
Mat 23:30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
Mat 23:31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
...
Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:

I see that there were OT prophets, NT prophets, wise men, and scribes who were martyred for declaring the Word of God and their testimony of the Messiah. This martyrdom continues in parts of the world today. These souls are the souls of the martyrs, the same that are under the altar. They are told that they must wait until all the martyr's deaths have come to pass.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellow servants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.