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Struggling with Remarriage ...

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"Moreover, Luther rejected an absolute ban on divorce. The words of Jesus in Matthew 19, he believed, clearly allowed for divorce in cases of adultery. Even so, he argued that only the innocent party could remarry. Luther even maintained that "government should...still put adulterers to death," in the spirit of Deuteronomy 22.[32] The only other grounds for divorce that he acknowledged were those cases where one spouse denied conjugal rights to the other, and extreme incompatibility. In the latter case, though, neither party might remarry. In short, while opening the door to divorce slightly, Luther was far removed from a modern "no fault" stance."

So we see again the position that death is the only fair resolution for the adulterer (God's own opinion as according to the OT), but that the innocent party is free to what?

Remarry, it would seem. Again, not the Word (or perhaps it is...Matt 19:9) but it certainly IS Martin Luther's opinion.

God bless.
 
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"A. Martin Luther

Few men have had a higher view of marriage than Luther. He taught that it "has been instituted by God" and that "marriage by nature is of such a kind that it drives, impels, and forces men to the most inward, highest spiritual state, to faith."29 He decried attempts by the Roman Catholic hierarchy "to despise matrimony and to lure people away from it to celibacy." Few can remain chaste, and therefore necessity dictates marriage.30 At the same time, while holding an exalted view of marriage, Luther did not consider it to be a church concern, but a worldly matter for the secular authority.31 When Jesus spoke on divorce, said Luther, he was not legislating the issue, but preaching against a capricious use of the divorce laws.32

In his own preaching on divorce, Luther was quite flexible as to what constitutes just cause. He cited adultery as the only cause given by Jesus. Through the Mosaic Law, adultery was punishable by death. Therefore, an adulterer "has already been divorced, not by man but by God Himself, and separated not only from his wife but from this very life."33 In such an instance, the other partner is completely free of any obligation to the former spouse. Adultery for Luther, however, was not the only possible ground. Desertion of spouse and family, he felt, was equally legitimate.34

In his interpretation of the teachings of Paul, Luther believed that if a Christian hinders a believing spouse from following Christ, divorce is in order, with remarriage a viable option. On the other hand, should the Christian divorce the unbeliever for other causes, there must be reconciliation or the maintenance of a celibate state.35 Anger was also a just cause. If a husband and wife could not live together harmoniously, but only in hatred and continual conflict, let them be divorced. Once more, however, reconciliation or celibacy were preferred. Nonetheless, in such cases, if a spouse did not desire reconciliation and the other was unable to remain chaste, the latter should remarry, for "God will not demand the impossible."36"
 
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lastblast

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NewCreatureinChrist said:
....let us go to part two of his paper "The Estate Of Marriage" circa 1522

"
three grounds for divorce. The first, is the situation in which the husband or wife is not equipped for marriage because of bodily or natural deficiencies of any sort.
The second ground is adultery. Here you see that in the case of adultery Christ permits the divorce of husband and wife, so that the innocent person may remarry. For in saying that he commits adultery who marries another after divorcing his wife, "except for unchastity," Christ is making it quite clear that he who divorces his wife on account of unchastity and then marries another does not commit adultery.


Some are spiritual, teaching righteousness in the sight of God, such as love and obedience; people who obeyed these commandments did not thrust away their wives and never made use of certificates of divorce, but tolerated and endured their wives' conduct.


Others are worldly, however, drawn up for the sake of those who do not live up to the spiritual commandments, in order to place a limit upon their misbehaviour and prevent them from doing worse and acting wholly on the basis of their own maliciousness.

Accordingly, he commanded them, if they could not endure their wives, that they should not put them to death or harm them too severely, but rather dismiss them with a certificate of divorce. This law, therefore, does not apply to Christians, who are supposed to live in the spiritual government. In the case of some who live with their wives in an un-Christian fashion, however, it would still be a good thing to permit them to use this law, just so they are no longer regarded as Christians, which after all they really are not.

Thus it is that on the grounds of adultery one person may leave the other, as Solomon also says in Proverbs 18, "He that keepeth an adulteress is a fool". We have an example of this in Joseph too. In Matthew 1 [:19] the gospel writer praises him as just because he did not put his wife to shame when he found that she was with child, but was minded to divorce her quietly. By this we are told plainly enough that it is praiseworthy to divorce an adulterous wife. If the adultery is clandestine, of course, the husband has the right to follow either of two courses. First, he may rebuke his wife privately and in a brotherly fashion, and keep her if she will mend her ways. Second, he may divorce her, as Joseph wished to do. The same principle applies in the case of a wife with an adulterous husband. These two types of discipline are both Christian and laudable.

You may ask: What is to become of the other [the guilty party] if he too is perhaps unable to lead a chaste life? Answer: It was for this reason that God commanded in the law [Deut. 22: 22-24] that adulterers be stoned, that they might not have to face this question. The temporal sword and government should therefore still put adulterers to death, for whoever commits adultery has in fact himself already departed and is considered as one dead.

Therefore, the other [the innocent party] may remarry just as though his spouse had died, if it is his intention to insist on his rights and not show mercy to the guilty party. Where the government is negligent and lax, however, and fails to inflict the death penalty, the adulterer may betake himself to a far country and there remarry if he is unable to remain continent. But it would be better to put him to death, lest a bad example be set.

Luther shows himself no different than many today who teach on divorce/remarriage----he is contradictory. He certainly does believe only the "innocent" can LEGALLY get married again. To me, if the marriage is dissolved, it is dissolved----all parties can marry again if that is the case. Like I said, some of his reasonings would NEVER thought to be used in church's today (especially his view on the death penalty). Also, by his teachings, people like Joni Erikson Tada should not be married-----they are not marriage material. I'm sure the Lord is very pleased with how man has twisted HIS word to do every evil thing in His sight.

Anyways, thanks for sharing that. Luther is worse than I thought:eek: Blessings in Him, Cindy
 
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lastblast

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NewCreatureinChrist said:
"A. Martin Luther

Few men have had a higher view of marriage than Luther.

I'm sorry, but this made me chuckle. Noone who reads what you have posted could ever come away with the belief that Luther had a "high" view of marriage........In Him, Cindy
 
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...although well-meaning, I am sure he is.

Cindy, do you believe in Universalism (ie, the belef that the saved, unsaved and all will eventually be reconciled to God)?

Did Wilcox give you the false notions about Luther?

"If you read Luther's thoughts on it, I think many today would never say such things in defense of remarriage/divorce. Luther only believed that remarriage for the guilty party was ok so that they could have some enjoyment before they ended up in Hell eternally."

and...

"Obviously he did not believe that a person could repent from adultery---they were eternally condemned."


Wondering where all that came from.

Thanks.
 
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lastblast

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NewCreatureinChrist said:
...Cindy, do you believe in Universalism (ie, the belef that the saved, unsaved and all will eventually be reconciled to God)?

Absolutely not! If I were to be labelled, I would be closer to Calvinism than Arminianism.

NewCreatureinChrist said:
Did Wilcox give you the false notions about Luther?

Wondering where all that came from. Thanks.

No, not at all. I had read Luther's viewpoints on this quite a long time ago. I don't think Luther is even quoted on the www.marriagedivorce.com site. Actually, all you quoted only added to my beliefs on how far "off" Luther actually was in regards to scriptural teachings on divorce/remarriage and how far "off" he was on understanding repentance from adultery and the nature of the marriage relationship. As I said, either a marriage can be dissolved and ALL parties free to remarry, or they are not free. As I said, he was inconsistant in his reasonings and applications. He would have been left just as speechless when asked about the nature of the marriage bond as are many pastors today. Just my observations. Blessings in Him, Cindy
 
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lastblast

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NewCreatureinChrist said:
"A. Martin Luther
an adulterer "has already been divorced, not by man but by God Himself, and separated not only from his wife but from this very life


Luther believed one "dies in their sins" when they commit adultery-----they are DIVORCED from God---DEAD.


NewCreatureinChrist said:
"In his interpretation of the teachings of Paul, Luther believed that if a Christian hinders a believing spouse from following Christ, divorce is in order, with remarriage a viable option.

Wow, I guess Luther didn't care about Paul's (The Lord's) admonishment to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled. Instead, Luther chose to teach a faithless walk, believing the Lord is not able to KEEP one from falling, so instead, they should rather disobey and feed the flesh. Sounds very much like what is being taught in the churches today.




NewCreatureinChrist said:
"On the other hand, should the Christian divorce the unbeliever for other causes, there must be reconciliation or the maintenance of a celibate state.35 Anger was also a just cause. If a husband and wife could not live together harmoniously, but only in hatred and continual conflict, let them be divorced. Once more, however, reconciliation or celibacy were preferred. Nonetheless, in such cases, if a spouse did not desire reconciliation and the other was unable to remain chaste, the latter should remarry, for "God will not demand the impossible."36"

believer/unbeliever marriage............it is PREFERRED that the abandoning one remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled. See, even Luther did not teach that an unbeliever/believer marriage was dissolved when a divorce takes place. What he does do is involve emotional reasoning to justify another marriage because he cannot justify remarriage with clear scripture in such cases.........

This is exactly why I "chuckled", though it was a exasperated chuckle of disbelief at such teachings. Luther was most certainly NOT a believer in marriage. He found MANY ways to justify the extraction of one from the marriage covenant........adultery, desertion, inability to remain chaste after a divorce, an anger problem, being married to another believer who is hindering the other's walk with Christ, physical disabilities...........etc. I don't think Luther is one who is to be elevated as a teacher of the sanctity of marriage-----he has defiled marriage with his teachings which are at odds with God's clear Word on the matter. I don't fault you for presenting his writings, I am thankful to have read even more about his views........but I have to admit, they make me cringe and grieve for all those who have taken and do take his words to heart. Blessings in Him, Cindy
 
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....for the answers to the questions ( I think they're in there somewhere...)

You do NOT subscribe to Origen's Universalist viewpoint (me, either) just his marriage doctrine, which mirrors somewhat the Church fathers viewpoint.

And I think you did NOT glean your misconceptions about Luther from Wilcox's website.

Also, when is the following true: "a marriage can be dissolved and ALL parties free to remarry"

Thanks again!
 
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lastblast

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NewCreatureinChrist said:
....Also, when is the following true: "a marriage can be dissolved and ALL parties free to remarry"Thanks again!

Well, I believe the only time that could occur would be when two people enter into an UNLAWFUL marriage......incestual, adulterous remarriage, homosexual marriage,etc. In essence, it would be an annulment---since such marriages are not lawful in God's eyes.

If two people marry lawfully and the union is joined by God into ONE (not joined by each other, but by God), that union cannot be dissolved except by death. (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). Any relationship that occurs before that time is adultery because the relationship has not been dissolved BY GOD through the means He has deemed acceptable, death. Just what I have gleaned through very extensive study on the topic. I know others differ with me, but each will have to stand before the Lord someday and answer for ourselves. Thanks for the nice dialogue NewCreatureinChrist. :) Blessings in Him, Cindy
 
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"Well, I believe the only time that could occur would be when two people enter into an UNLAWFUL marriage......incestual, adulterous remarriage, homosexual marriage,etc. In essence, it would be an annulment---since such marriages are not lawful in God's eyes."

Where is the scripture on the "annulment"?

Also, where is the scripture on Unlawful marriage?

Please, no "church fathers" stuff as it is helpful but not scripture.

Thanks in advance!

Chris
 
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Svt4Him

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Wow, I guess Luther didn't care about Paul's (The Lord's) admonishment to remain UNMARRIED or be reconciled. Instead, Luther chose to teach a faithless walk, believing the Lord is not able to KEEP one from falling, so instead, they should rather disobey and feed the flesh. Sounds very much like what is being taught in the churches today.

Or perhaps he believed that God was not a liar when God said it was ok to marry after divorce. He probably also believed it really was a docrtine of demons to preach otherwise. I don't find him quoted on www.divorcehope.com either, but I'm sure he believed these plain, obvious passages.


[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]

[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif] "Apostasies will always manifest themselves among those who avoid controversy and discussions. To suppress discussion is to deprive truth of all of its vantage ground."
~ David Lipscomb
[/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"Those who embrace error will shun discussion–those who love truth will then be known."
~ Gene Frost,
Gospel Truths (Nov. `02) p. 9
[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Regarding Controversy[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]By Ron Halbrook [/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]"Be willing to hear both sides of the issues involved and be wary of excuses offered for closing the door to open discussion. 'Try,' test, or examine the teachers in this controversy – no matter who they are – and do it by comparing what they say with Scripture (I Jn. 4:1,6). Do not be timid about approaching the men involved to ask for the Bible basis of their conduct and teaching. Pay close attention to whether they actually give you Bible passages or whether they merely talk around the subject. Notice whether they seem tense, resentful, and angry when you question them, or whether they seem to truly welcome and appreciate your questions. Those who stand on the truth find that it gives them a confidence which creates calmness and patience in discussing the questions of honest people. Those who cannot give Scripture for their position suffer from arrogance, impatience, and frustration which create bitter resentment against those who dare to question them. Something is wrong if the man you question does not seem glad for the opportunity to fulfill I Peter 3:15 (‘be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you’)."


[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Fight of Faith or Needless Controversy[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]By Harry Osborne [/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]“Brethren, when you look at a controversy arise, and you see that the way people handle it is by boycotting the preaching of those things that have to do with truth, you’ve found, most likely, where the error is. Truth is never afraid to stand up. Truth is never afraid to stand there and have a discussion of truth, to have an open Bible and to study those issues. Truth is always ready to do that. Error is not. Error is going to be something that tries to work behind the back, it’s going to be something that tries to label through unnecessary means, it’s going to be something that takes quotations out of context, attributes things to people that are not so. That’s what error does.” [/FONT]
 
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Endless

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Svt4Him said:
when God said it was ok to marry after divorce.

Where did God say that it was ok to remarry? please post some scripture where it says that. I've not found it and we're still struggling.

Thanks for your help.

~M
 
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Svt4Him

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Endless said:
Where did God say that it was ok to remarry? please post some scripture where it says that. I've not found it and we're still struggling.

Thanks for your help.

~M

Here is the law being questioned by the Pharasees when they asked Jesus the question of put away:

Deut 24
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, Sans Serif]1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, Swiss, Geneva, Sans Serif]2 And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.[/FONT]
 
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TimothyTwo226

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If you read 1 Co, Paul speaks about the abandonment, etc. and that it is OK to marry. If you don't, it's OK, and if you do, it's OK.

I am going through the same struggle. My "Christian" spouse divorced me at the advice of her Pastor while I was in recovery for addictive behavior, etc.

I never wanted to leave the marriage, but had no other choice.

It was healthier to not grovel after something that I felt was going to be fruitless. Unhealthy people really can't stand healthy ones.

I have since met a Godly woman who has become the joy and support and love of my life that God had intended for me...and I so the same for her....

Ask God what He'd have you to do....and then verify it w/scripture...no conflicts, then you're good to go....
 
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lastblast

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NewCreatureinChrist said:
"Well, I believe the only time that could occur would be when two people enter into an UNLAWFUL marriage......incestual, adulterous remarriage, homosexual marriage,etc. In essence, it would be an annulment---since such marriages are not lawful in God's eyes."

Where is the scripture on the "annulment"?

Also, where is the scripture on Unlawful marriage?

Please, no "church fathers" stuff as it is helpful but not scripture.

Thanks in advance!

Chris

Chris,

I would be glad to continue this discussion in the marriage forum (not remarriage)---- as debate/further discussion is against the rules for this area. Blessings in Him, Cindy
 
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Svt4Him

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lastblast said:
Well, I believe the only time that could occur would be when two people enter into an UNLAWFUL marriage......incestual, adulterous remarriage, homosexual marriage,etc. In essence, it would be an annulment---since such marriages are not lawful in God's eyes.

If two people marry lawfully and the union is joined by God into ONE (not joined by each other, but by God), that union cannot be dissolved except by death. (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39). Any relationship that occurs before that time is adultery because the relationship has not been dissolved BY GOD through the means He has deemed acceptable, death. Just what I have gleaned through very extensive study on the topic. I know others differ with me, but each will have to stand before the Lord someday and answer for ourselves. Thanks for the nice dialogue NewCreatureinChrist. :) Blessings in Him, Cindy

An unlawful marriage was dissolved through putting away. If two people marry, that marriage is dissolved through death or divorce. And if it makes one an adulterer, then why did God divorce His people? But it's hard to say put away is the same as divorce when you then use a situation where put away is perfectly acceptable and a divorce is not needed. But I guess if you call it unlawful then we can ignore that fact.
 
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lastblast

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Svt4Him said:
An unlawful marriage was dissolved through putting away.

Not to debate here, but I don't believe an unlawful marriage is joined by God to begin with(incest, homosexual, adulterous), hence no need for the union to be "dissolved". (Rom. 7:2-3, I Cor. 7:39) If you would like to discuss this further, I would encourage you to start a new thread on the marriage ministry section. Blessings in Him, cindy
 
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MOD HAT ON

Sorry, this thread needs to be closed as it has become a debate, which isn't permitted in this forum. This sub-forum is a support forum, please keep debating to the discussion and debate forums.

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