Struggling with predestination...

[William II]

Alright, so this is my first thread in this section...I think. After todays sermon and the various R.C Sproul lectures I've been listening to lately...I've had a lot of trouble with predestination.

The way R.C/Calvanists put it seems to be that God has chosen a certain number of people who will ascend to heaven...regardless of their faith.

I'm having a hard time grasping this idea and feeling comfortable with it. I've always understood God to be omnipotent...which implies a certain degree of predestination...but would he pre-assign the souls of man to salvation and hell indiscriminately/arbitrarily?

Anyone who has any insight to this topic/any good Bible verses that will help me understand...help, lol.

 

[J0SHUA]

I would recommend reading through Ephesians and Romans 9. God says "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion." (Romans 9:15) The next verse says that it does not depend on the man who wills, nor the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

Ephesians 1:4-5: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"

John[bless and do not curse]1:12,13: "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."

So it has nothing to do with how the person is or of works, it's purely about the will of God. The usual response is pity for the non elect and people see injustice of God, but it's not unjust at all. The non elect are enemies of God and are getting exactly what they want. The amazing thing is that God saved any of His naturally hostile children.

By the way, if I understood you correctly, you were questioning "unconditional election." You might want to look more into that. Are you new to reformed theology? If so look into all of the points of Calvinism (especially total depravity. It is the first point for a reason). Then you'll see the beauty of how accurate they are and how they all work together and are the true biblical teaching of the process of salvation.

 

[sparrows]

God's main feature is love, selfless love that does not show favoritism. He also calls us to follow Him: not to show favoritism.

Ephesus 6:7-9
"Serve wholeheartedly, as if you were serving the Lord, not people, because you know that the Lord will reward each one for whatever good they do, whether they are slave or free. And masters, treat your slaves in the same way. Do not threaten them, since you know that he who is both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no favoritism with him."

Rom 2:10,11
"but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism."


The idea of predestination is in contrast with love and not showing favoritism. So predestination can not be God's way of acting. He is righteous and loves all men, so He wants to save all men.

I Tim 2:1-7
I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time. And for this purpose I was appointed a herald and an apostle—I am telling the truth, I am not lying—and a true and faithful teacher of the Gentiles.


There are many passages in the Bible that express that man does not want to respond to God's love. Man's resistance is the hindrance.
Mt 23:37
“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.

There are some passages that speak about the sovereignty of God. He decides who can be saved. Nevertheless all men have the possibility to decide for this plan.
These passages need more thorough discussions.

 

[razzelflabben]

In order to understand Calvinist teaching on predestination, it is important to look at the passages they favor. I would like to point out a couple of things that contrast their teaching, not to convince you of either side, but rather to balance your understanding so that you can choose for yourself, without bias what to believe. Scripture does talk about predestination, and the following passages are those that even use the word.

1. Romans 8:29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

What the calvinist teaches here is that God foreknew, thus it is out of our hands, however, notice what we are predestined to...to being conformed to the image of His Son....Therefore, there are two sides, one side says God chooses, the other side says, God chose that we should be conformed to His image.

1. Romans 8:30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Again, for the Calvinist, this means that only God chooses whom to save, but compare this passage to Acts 14:17
Nevertheless he left not himself without witness, in that he did good, and gave us rain from heaven, and fruitful seasons, filling our hearts with food and gladness. or this one...Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

1. Ephesians 1:5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

again, the Calvinist uses this passage to suggest that it is God who chooses who is to be adopted, but when we add passages like John 3:16 and Isaiah 53, we see that God's will is that all would come to the adoption as sons, through Jesus Christ...iow's the non Calvinist mindset, sees this passage the same way he sees 2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance....that it is more about what Christ came to do, then it is about if and who God chooses to let into His glory.

1. Ephesians 1:11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

Here we have a repeat of the passage above, but we add to it, the idea of will...since God says that His will remains unchanged, the Calvinist dismisses the II Peter passage as it applies to this passage, that is not to say they struck it from their bibles (before anyone shoots me) but rather that they do not see this passage and the II Peter passage side by side in their thinking.


we could throw in a few other passages, but these are the hot button one's so to speak...so the next question as I understand your post, then is, where do they get this idea of a specific number of people are chosen...consider these verses...


Romans 11:25-26

25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[a] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
“The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.



Revelation 6:11
Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters, were killed just as they had been.

Both talk about a specific number...for the Calvinist mindset, this is a confirmation that God chooses, for the other mindset, it is a confirmation that God already knows how many will choose Him. It's about God being all knowing, rather than about God not giving us choice.

Hope that helps

 

[razzelflabben]

duplicate post, sorry

 

[cubanito]

Logic can not explain creation.

You expect it to explain God.

JR, summarizing van Til

 

[DeaconDean]

Dear "Struggling with Predestination",

I am reminded of a story that one of my seminary teachers used.

He was fishing with an Indian friend of his. Where they were standing, you could clearly see all the way to the bottom of the river. Deciding to walk out to a good spot to fish, he stepped in and immediately fell in water well over his head.

Point is, we can see clearly into the dephts of scripture, but sometimes it belies the real depth.

While I was in seminary, I took the time to read and study this "controversal" doctrine. It is not to be approached lightly.

It will require at a bare minium of six months to read, not to mention the various scriptures you will have to study also.

Then there are the various theologies, Calvinist, Arminian, Catholic, etc.

But also let me say this, the doctrine of "predestination" is so inter linked and related to the doctrine of "election" that it is impossible to study one, and not study the other.

One other subject you also might want to research is your own convictions as to the "Soverignty" of God. Because this bears great importance on the subjects of "election" and "predestination".

Just like the theme song for "Married with Children": "Love and marriage, love and marriage, you can't have one without the other". so the Soverignty of God goes with election and predestination. You can't have one with the other.

Prepare yourself.

God Bless

TIll all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

What the calvinist teaches here is that God foreknew, thus it is out of our hands, however, notice what we are predestined to...to being conformed to the image of His Son....Therefore, there are two sides, one side says God chooses, the other side says, God chose that we should be conformed to His image.

No, that is not what Calvinists teach.

Look again at Romans 8 paying attention to verse 28:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." -Rom. 8:28-29 (KJV)

In the Greek, it reads as:

"oidamen de oti toiV agapwsin ton qeon panta sunergei eiV agaqon, toiV kata proqesin klhtoiV ousin. oti ouV proegnw, kai prowrisen summorfouV thV eikonoV tou uiou autou, eiV to einai auton prwtotokon en polloiV adelfoiV:" -Rom. 8:28-29 (GNT)

Pay close attention to the start of verse 29, for it is here we see the Greek word: "oti" (hot-ee)

This is a conjunction, and a conjunction serves the purpose of linking the previous clause (v. 28) to verse 29.

Why did God "foreknow" these people?

Because they were called/elected first.

Again, for the Calvinist, this means that only God chooses whom to save, but compare this passage to Acts 14:17

But you also forget Acts 13:48.

again, the Calvinist uses this passage to suggest that it is God who chooses who is to be adopted, but when we add passages like John 3:16 and Isaiah 53, we see that God's will is that all would come to the adoption as sons, through Jesus Christ

But you also forget, do all come to redemption?

Dear struggling with predestination, the above is a perfect example of why I say, you must search your own convictions as to how sovereign God really is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[razzelflabben]

No, that is not what Calvinists teach.

Look again at Romans 8 paying attention to verse 28:

"And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren." -Rom. 8:28-29 (KJV)

In the Greek, it reads as:

"oidamen de oti toiV agapwsin ton qeon panta sunergei eiV agaqon, toiV kata proqesin klhtoiV ousin. oti ouV proegnw, kai prowrisen summorfouV thV eikonoV tou uiou autou, eiV to einai auton prwtotokon en polloiV adelfoiV:" -Rom. 8:28-29 (GNT)

Pay close attention to the start of verse 29, for it is here we see the Greek word: "oti" (hot-ee)

This is a conjunction, and a conjunction serves the purpose of linking the previous clause (v. 28) to verse 29.

Why did God "foreknow" these people?

Because they were called/elected first.

nothing you just said contradicts what I said, in fact, it supports what I said...so confused why you think I'm wrong, when your post supports what I said.

But you also forget Acts 13:48.



But you also forget, do all come to redemption?

Dear struggling with predestination, the above is a perfect example of why I say, you must search your own convictions as to how sovereign God really is.

God Bless

Till all are one.

more confusion...what the heck do you think you are arguing about my point?

 

[Pastor Glenn]

No need to be confused about predestination. Many people like to get deeply theological and confused.

Hope this helps:

It's not the "person" that is predestined but rather the" Plan".

The whole truth of predestination hinges on the word "foreknowlege". In eternity past, God foreknew - he foreloved. "He is not willing that any should perish but that all come to repentance." so he drew up his plan of salvation. His plan is for the salvation of all but at the same time he gave us a free will to accept or reject the plan of personal faith in Christ. In eternity past God knew who would and who would not serve him. Yet he continued to forelove. God did not choose who would and who would not come to him.

 

[DanJudge]

Alright, so this is my first thread in this section...I think. After todays sermon and the various R.C Sproul lectures I've been listening to lately...I've had a lot of trouble with predestination.

The way R.C/Calvanists put it seems to be that God has chosen a certain number of people who will ascend to heaven...regardless of their faith.

I'm having a hard time grasping this idea and feeling comfortable with it. I've always understood God to be omnipotent...which implies a certain degree of predestination...but would he pre-assign the souls of man to salvation and hell indiscriminately/arbitrarily?

Anyone who has any insight to this topic/any good Bible verses that will help me understand...help, lol.

William II/Brothers/Sisters, Who are the Elect? The Poor People are, (the Elect) they are Rich in FAITH, because Jesus has Chosen Them.

William II/ Brothers/ Sisters, There are exceptions to the rule, when it comes to the Rich. The Only way the Rich can believe in Jesus Christ is by FAITH, and ONLY GOD can give a Rich man FAITH.

Seek and you will Find. Please read all of Predestination, It is one of the many chapters of Revelation Chapter 10.

The"Little Book" of Revelation Chapter 10, Read all of Revelation Chapter 10.

ON PREDESTINATION

Surely the poor people are chosen alone, and not another group with them, as the Scripture says, “Blessed are the poor people, because the Kingdom of God belongs to you” (Luke 6:20) and (in the Greek), “Blessed by the Spirit are the poor people, because the Kingdom of the Heavens belongs to them” (Matthew 5:3); but to the rich Christ says, “But woe to you who are rich, because you have received your consolation” (Luke 6:24) and, “How hard is it for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God? It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God!” (Luke 18:24-25).

There is after all no free will, but only predestination, as the Scripture says, “For it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His own purpose” (Philippians 2:13) and, “Therefore He has mercy on who He wants to have mercy, and who He wants to He hardens” (Romans 9:18). Thus we see that faith in God and all good traits — which is the substance of conformity to the image of Christ — derive from the condition of poverty; and rebellion against God and all evil traits — which is the substance of conformity to the image of the devil — derive from the condition of wealth; and so the Scripture says, “Hasn’t God chosen the poor people out of the world, those being rich in faith and so heirs of the Kingdom that He has promised for the ones who love Him? But you have despised the poor people! Don’t the rich oppress you? And they drag you into the courts. Don’t they blaspheme the good Name that is called on you?” (James 2:5-7). And again, “They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave. Therefore they say to God, ‘Depart from us, for we desire not the knowledge of Your ways’ ” (Job 21:13-14). There are therefore in terms of truth only two nations upon the earth and not many, those being the nation of the poor people scattered throughout the world in all societies — all poor people of all societies being identical to one another in heart immediately below the level of words and so forming in truth one nation — who are the children of the Kingdom; and the nation of the wealthy people likewise scattered throughout the world in all societies, who are the children of the evil one. And surely the heart of the prostitute is purer than the heart of the chief priest and the elder. And so the rich man who was with Lazarus during this life was told, “You during your lifetime received your good things, and likewise Lazarus his bad things; but now he is comforted here while you are tormented” (Luke 16:25).

To the rich God says, “Go and sell whatever you have and give it away to the poor people, and you will have treasure in Heaven, and come, follow Me” (Luke 18:22). But the rich, being atheists and blasphemers against the good Name of God that is called on the poor people, hearing about “treasure in Heaven” only laugh in their hearts and reject the path of salvation that God has ordained for them. And do you know of even one of them who has ever obeyed it for ages past?

Then God waits for their death.
Then He throws them down to Hell.
Then He says to them, “This is the fire that you mocked at!”

And so He has mercy on who He wants to have mercy — and who He wants to He hardens.

—Barry I. Hyman
CHRISTIAN REVOLUTIONARY BROTHERHOOD




Peace Be With You All
DanJudge

 

[Pastor Glenn]

Please be aware that there are heretical interpretations of scripture.
I'm not here to argue theology but I will make a couple of comments here. Hopefully help open your spiritually blinded eyes to the truth.
Romans 9:18
tells us that God will always have Mercy on those who meet His Conditions. Stubborness towards God will be met with God forcing the issue by providing the setting which will make the heart even harder. In other words, if a person wants hardness, one will get hardness.


Philippians 2:13
is talking about " Divine enablement". The Holy Spirit who is the energizing force within every genuine Born Again Christian makes one not only willing, but actively desirous of doing God's will.

Please do not use a Christian Forum such as this as a platform to randomly toss out your misinterpreted and out of context views of God's Word.
Know the Word.

 

[cubanito]

DeaconDean is correct in that this is not a doctrine to be approached lightly. After somewhat over 20 years in the Faith, having read various opinions and of course the Bible, I decided to spend some time understanding this apparent paradox better. For me, it came down to a single verse: Titus 1:12 One of themselves, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.”

I spent a little over 18 months studying that single verse.

I currently have an understanding which amply satisfies my soul on this matter. I am happy to fellowship with anyone who does not share my point of view on it.

Trying to compress what I think on this matter to a reasonable amount of words would yield statements like:

I am a van Tillian with a mathematics education.

God is Sovereign, man is free to choose an logic applies neither to the creation nor can it bind the Creator.

There is only one Absolute Perspective from where Truth can ultimately be seen, and it is not mine nor yours. God is Light, and having the Eternal Perspective He has declared to us He has determined all things. We are immortal, but never Eternal, so from our limited perspective we do have a real choice. We will never be God (as we can not accelerate to the speed of light), and thus we can only accept the declaration of God and live content in the fact that from our limited perspective we do have a real choice.

As you see I can pile ever more confusing statement upon another, bring in relativity theory, quantum mechanics and my favorite, the aptly named mathematician God-el Kurt Gödel's Ontological Argument but then I will retrace years of personal intense study. Oh and then I could remind us all that "Jesus Loves me, this I know, for the Bible tells me so." which is all that really matters.

God has given us an ocean where babies may play and have adventures on the seashore, but the greatest scholar can never reach the bottom of His depths. I think I'll build me a theological sandcastle now and wait for the next wave to gloriously demolish it. It is not vanity, for I do not plan to live long "under the sun."

JR

 

[DeaconDean]

Please do not use a Christian Forum such as this as a platform to randomly toss out your misinterpreted and out of context views of God's Word.
Know the Word.

You know what, your the only person besides me, who recognized this.

Barry Hyman has been red-flagged by several Christian organizations.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

The whole truth of predestination hinges on the word "foreknowlege".

Its a little deeper than that.

Ever visited the Soteriology section?

Election and Presdestination are very hotly contested and debated topics there.

And your right, it does hinge around the word "fore-known".

(BTW: you might want to look up the word foreknow in Kittles Theological Dictionary, it might supprise you)

Did God elect and predestinate people because He "fore-knew" they would accept and believe, which is the Arminian position, or did God elect by His own sovereign choice and then predestinate the saints, which is the Calvinist position.

So it really does depend on how Sovereign one believes God to be.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

(BTW: you might want to look up the word foreknow in Kittles Theological Dictionary, it might supprise you)

Here, let me help:

In the NT, “proginwskein” is referred to God. His foreknowledge, however, is an election or foreordination of His people (Rom. 8:29; 11:2) or Christ (1 Pet. 1:20) (> ginwskw, 698, 706). In Pastor Hermae, mandata, 4, 3, 4 it simply means God’s foreknowledge (cf. prognwstv in 2 Cl. 9:9). On the basis of prophecy the word “proginwskein” can be used of believers in 2 Pet. 3:17, also as Pastor Hermae, similitudines, 7,5 > eklegw. Another possible meaning in Greek is that of knowing earlier, i.e., than the time speaking (cf. Demosthenes of Athens, 29, 58; Aristotle, Rhetorica, II, 21, p. 1394b, 11; Josephus, Bella Judiacum, 6,8). This is found in Acts 26:5, where the meaning is strengthened by the addition of “anwqen.” In Justin God’s “proginwskein” is Hid foreknowledge (Apol. I, 28, 2 etc.) and the “proegnwsmenoi” are believers (Apol. I, 45, 1 etc.). The polemic against determinism, however, shows that the OT view has been abandoned (Dial., 140, 4). As One who simply knows beforehand, God is called “prognwstv” in Apol., I, 44, 11 etc. as is also Christ in Dial., 35, 7; 82, 1. There is also reference to prophetic foreknowledge in Apol., I, 43, 1; 49, 6 etc. Tatian, of Syria, in Oratio ad Graecos, 19, 3, speaks of Apollo in the same terms, so that what we have here is the Greek understanding.

Theological Dictionary of the New Testament, Edited by: Gerhard Kittel, Translated by: Geoffery W. Bromiley, Vol. V, “prognwskein”, p. 457, Rudolph Bultmann commenting.

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[DeaconDean]

Please do not use a Christian Forum such as this as a platform to randomly toss out your misinterpreted and out of context views of God's Word.
Know the Word.

Wait, there's more:

Surely it is to guide us in the establishment of a world-nationality formed by the amalgamation and the blending of peoples and ethnic stocks through intermarriage, where there will be truth, as there was in the ancient church...composed ultimately of individuals of mixed race type that inhabits the Middle-East, and which of course includes, the whole of the Biblical ethnically Jewish group, and is the group called "glorious" as scripture says "and we saw His glory" and "filled with grace and truth". It is the only form of mankind capable of being produced by human action, and is manifestly both the ultimate flowering and the fruit of peace and love."

And the Word became flesh, Barry L. Hyman, Christian Revolutionary Brotherhood

Did you see that?

The only way to restore mankind to its former state, and invoke the blessings of God is to mix the races.

Something just don't sound right here.

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iambren]

This is what really seals it for me. To struggle with God choosing is largely because it seems so darn unfair. Do you REALLY want fair?

Really? Ok,we all go to hell.

If you really believe that,then who are YOU to tell God that from grace He might elect a remnant unto Himself? Can He do it without violating His attributes or character? I think He can.


And.....of course God has favorites! He doesn't have to answer to us! Only Abraham was chosen out of the Ur of Chaldees,why just him? Why Jacob and not Esau? The list can go on and on where no merit of their own God favored them.

 

[DeaconDean]

This is what really seals it for me. To struggle with God choosing is largely because it seems so darn unfair. Do you REALLY want fair?

Really? Ok,we all go to hell.

If you really believe that,then who are YOU to tell God that from grace He might elect a remnant unto Himself? Can He do it without violating His attributes or character? I think He can.


And.....of course God has favorites! He doesn't have to answer to us! Only Abraham was chosen out of the Ur of Chaldees,why just him? Why Jacob and not Esau? The list can go on and on where no merit of their own God favored them.

Ah yes, the old Romans 9 answer.

He will harden whom he will harden, and he will show grace on whom he will show grace. Has not the potter power over the clay?

Somebody ought to look up the Greek word translated "power" in Romans 9.

Hint: "authority".

exousia,n \{ex-oo-see'-ah}
[SIZE=-1]1) power of choice, liberty of doing as one pleases 1a) leave or permission 2) physical and mental power 2a) the ability or strength with which one is endued, which he either possesses or exercises 3) the power of authority (influence) and of right (privilege) 4) the power of rule or government (the power of him whose will and commands must be submitted to by others and obeyed) 4a) universally 4a1) authority over mankind 4b) specifically 4b1) the power of judicial decisions 4b2) of authority to manage domestic affairs 4c) metonymically 4c1) a thing subject to authority or rule 4c1a) jurisdiction 4c2) one who possesses authority 4c2a) a ruler, a human magistrate 4c2b) the leading and more powerful among created beings superior to man, spiritual potentates 4d) a sign of the husband's authority over his wife 4d1) the veil with which propriety required a women to cover herself 4e) the sign of regal authority, a crown [/SIZE]

Greek Lexicon

God Bless

Till all are one.

 

[iambren]

And all authority is under the supreme authority who can give or take away, our powerful God.