Struggling with extremes

[dms1972]

I feel I have a problem in my life with extremes in myself and in what I read as regards the Holy Spirit. I have read books that are by charismatic authors (eg. The Bennetts, Francis MacNutt, Agnes Sanford, Kathryn Kuhlmann etc.) and authors that are cessationist (eg. MacArthur) as well as other theologians like Karl Barth, and I just feel this whole issue of spirituality has always been awfully troubling to me. I didn't grow up in a church that was particularly charismatic, and the whole matter of faith-healing, and people falling over (slain in the spirit as its called) was to me when I first seen it on TV something I was dubious about, and to be honest not something I was sure I wanted to experience either (ie. falling over). I have read both sides, but feel no further on in fact it doesn't help. I also had read New Age material earlier in life. I haven't done some of the spiritual practices I have heard of, but neither have I been sure in myself whether some of it is right or wrong. At times I have found myself agreeing with cessationist teachings then later rejecting them and going to the opposite extreme. I would certainly have called myself a christian at one point, but I have always struggled a lot and I feel its a lot to do with this matter of cessationism versus continuism and also christian views of the Holy Spirit versus New age.

 

[sandman]

I feel I have a problem in my life with extremes in myself and in what I read as regards the Holy Spirit. I have read books that are by charismatic authors (eg. The Bennetts, Francis MacNutt, Agnes Sanford, Kathryn Kuhlmann etc.) and authors that are cessationist (eg. MacArthur) as well as other theologians like Karl Barth, and I just feel this whole issue of spirituality has always been awfully troubling to me. I didn't grow up in a church that was particularly charismatic, and the whole matter of faith-healing, and people falling over (slain in the spirit as its called) was to mewhen I first seen it on TV something I was dubious about, and to be honest not something I was sure I wanted to experience either (ie. falling over). I have read both sides, but feel no further on in fact it doesn't help. I also had read New Age material earlier in life. I haven't done some of the spiritual practices I have heard of, but neither have I been sure in myself whether some of it is right or wrong. At times I have found myself agreeing with cessationist teachings then later rejecting them and going to the opposite extreme. I would certainly have called myself a christian at one point, but I have always struggled a lot and I feel its a lot to do with this matter of cessationism versus continuism and also christian views of the Holy Spirit versus New age.

If things don’t sit right ….they probably are not right.

1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.



When I first got in the Word I visited many different congregations, assemblies, revivals …etc.

That feeling of “this ain’t right” would come across me when I saw or heard specific things….

The slain in the spirit was one of those …. falling down, blurting out uncontrollable, or running around while speaking in tongues was another. I am not slandering tongues I have been doing it all my born again life. But the action associated with tongues (including snake handling) .... that stuff is NOT from God.

After I became more aware of what the Word states…. I went back to some of those places that did that stuff to prove it either God inspired or not. I shouldn’t tell you what I did, but I did prove that my foot and my voice was either more powerful than God (who was supposedly knocking them down)…. or it was not authentically from the true God.

Much of the faith healing stuff that you see (where people are knocked down) has a possibility of three components … It is either set up ahead of time ..or.. People go down on their own accord because they expect that when they get bonked in the head ..or.. the one administering healing is operating a devil spirit which knocks people down. For me that was easy to detect from the beginning …due to the lifestyle I had been previously living.

The true God never overrides your free will. He will never knock you down or cause you to do something that ridiculous, out of order or goes against His Word ….the true God does not control….ever!

As an addendum …. There are some believers who truly get healed during some of these events. Healing is a promise in the Word …when and if someone believes God’s word …they will be healed.

My advice … quit reading external sources … Go to the Word for Truth. Books are fine… they can give you insight…. but always match the insight against the truth.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

I feel I have a problem in my life with extremes in myself and in what I read as regards the Holy Spirit. I have read books that are by charismatic authors (eg. The Bennetts, Francis MacNutt, Agnes Sanford, Kathryn Kuhlmann etc.) and authors that are cessationist (eg. MacArthur) as well as other theologians like Karl Barth, and I just feel this whole issue of spirituality has always been awfully troubling to me. I didn't grow up in a church that was particularly charismatic, and the whole matter of faith-healing, and people falling over (slain in the spirit as its called) was to mewhen I first seen it on TV something I was dubious about, and to be honest not something I was sure I wanted to experience either (ie. falling over). I have read both sides, but feel no further on in fact it doesn't help. I also had read New Age material earlier in life. I haven't done some of the spiritual practices I have heard of, but neither have I been sure in myself whether some of it is right or wrong. At times I have found myself agreeing with cessationist teachings then later rejecting them and going to the opposite extreme. I would certainly have called myself a christian at one point, but I have always struggled a lot and I feel its a lot to do with this matter of cessationism versus continuism and also christian views of the Holy Spirit versus New age.

When a person believes Jesus Christ of Nazareth makes His Home in them. This is the indwelling of His Holy Spirit. He regenerates the beliver. From there His Spirit begins to do a work in us ,conforming us into His image. His Holy Spirit is our Comforter, guild and convicts us of sin so that we are moved towards repentance. His Holy Spirit has Fruits and they are, love, joy,peace,forbearance, kindness,goodness,faithfulness , gentleness and selfcontrol. His Holy Spirit also dispenses gifts like tongues, healing, miracles and prophesy. All these gifts are manifested within His character displayed by His Fruits. When we see actions or hear doctrines that operate outside of His parameters, we can safely determine it is not from Him. Hope this helps to clarify. Be blessed.

 

[dms1972]

If things don’t sit right ….they probably are not right.

1Co 14:40 Let all things be done decently and in order.

1Co 14:33 For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.



When I first got in the Word I visited many different congregations, assemblies, revivals …etc.

That feeling of “this ain’t right” would come across me when I saw or heard specific things….

The slain in the spirit was one of those …. falling down, blurting out uncontrollable, or running around while speaking in tongues was another. I am not slandering tongues I have been doing it all my born again life. But the action associated with tongues (including snake handling) .... that stuff is NOT from God.

After I became more aware of what the Word states…. I went back to some of those places that did that stuff to prove it either God inspired or not. I shouldn’t tell you what I did, but I did prove that my foot and my voice was either more powerful than God (who was supposedly knocking them down)…. or it was not authentically from the true God.

Much of the faith healing stuff that you see (where people are knocked down) has a possibility of three components … It is either set up ahead of time ..or.. People go down on their own accord because they expect that when they get bonked in the head ..or.. the one administering healing is operating a devil spirit which knocks people down. For me that was easy to detect from the beginning …due to the lifestyle I had been previously living.

The true God never overrides your free will. He will never knock you down or cause you to do something that ridiculous, out of order or goes against His Word ….the true God does not control….ever!

As an addendum …. There are some believers who truly get healed during some of these events. Healing is a promise in the Word …when and if someone believes God’s word …they will be healed.

My advice … quit reading external sources … Go to the Word for Truth. Books are fine… they can give you insight…. but always match the insight against the truth.

My problem is somewhat with the polarisation that is generated by these two groups. The conservative evangelicals read the Bible and interpret it within the confines of their doctrines, as regards to what is valid religious experience and what still happens. I think some of the criticism aimed at charismatic christianity may sometimes be valid, but for all their doctrinal purity there can still be something lacking in the conservative churches.

 

[sandman]

My problem is somewhat with the polarisation that is generated by these two groups. The conservative evangelicals read the Bible and interpret it within the confines of their doctrines, as regards to what is valid religious experience and what still happens. I think some of the criticism aimed at charismatic christianity may sometimes be valid, but for all their doctrinal purity there can still be something lacking in the conservative churches.

That is a problem ....Anytime people interpret the Bible rather than allowing the Bible to interpret itself....which it does. I constantly run into people who read what they believe ....rather than believe what they read... The are looking to support their narrative or doctrine.... I am looking to support Gods Word and see how it fits together.
Experiences ....as long as they don't contradict the Word are great .... but they are not a guarantee for truth.

 

[Agra man]

I feel I have a problem in my life with extremes in myself and in what I read as regards the Holy Spirit. I have read books that are by charismatic authors (eg. The Bennetts, Francis MacNutt, Agnes Sanford, Kathryn Kuhlmann etc.) and authors that are cessationist (eg. MacArthur) as well as other theologians like Karl Barth, and I just feel this whole issue of spirituality has always been awfully troubling to me. I didn't grow up in a church that was particularly charismatic, and the whole matter of faith-healing, and people falling over (slain in the spirit as its called) was to me when I first seen it on TV something I was dubious about, and to be honest not something I was sure I wanted to experience either (ie. falling over). I have read both sides, but feel no further on in fact it doesn't help. I also had read New Age material earlier in life. I haven't done some of the spiritual practices I have heard of, but neither have I been sure in myself whether some of it is right or wrong. At times I have found myself agreeing with cessationist teachings then later rejecting them and going to the opposite extreme. I would certainly have called myself a christian at one point, but I have always struggled a lot and I feel its a lot to do with this matter of cessationism versus continuism and also christian views of the Holy Spirit versus New age.

You have to start small. First if you felt a change when you were saved, can you honestly say you were born again? For the record this is a supernatural experience

If yes then what you do is focus first on getting close to God. See when I was saved I didn't have anyone to help me or teach me and when I prayed it felt like I was talking to air there was no connection what so ever. So if I couldn't speak to him one way I would do it another and so I decided to write to him and this was when things started clicking. I wrote in a journal on how it feels odd talking to him how I can't feel any connection asking him how can I get to know him how do I feel the holy spirit

As I kept doing this a connection became stronger and stronger until I he and I had a very deep and personal relationship.

Many forget basic social ethic, how do you get to know someone and how do you become close to them? communication time spent with each other being open with your feelings and thoughts, that is what made him and I so close and I think instead of looking at all the stuff your talking about get to know God and the holy spirit personally yourself


He wants to be your daily journal he wants to be close to you and he desires that you are close to his spirit all you have to do is get to know him

 

[OldAbramBrown]

When ... blessed.

My problem ... conservative churches.

This entire scene in all directions has been the main theme of my life. Macarthur and other marshallers don't teach complete. Roberts, or Johnson, don't teach realistic.

If complete teaching is taught, belief can ensue.

The gifts are imparted unvetoed, as action by Jesus and Holy Spirit, distinct from and additional to indwelling. It can't usually be made to happen well if we weren't given the insight to believe precisely.

(All believers are meant to have many, which doesn't make us competing against each other.)

Their purpose is to make fruitful our works of virtue such as prudence, insight, etc and free our direction of looking towards God.

The Acts 2 incident is a sample and not a mannerism or ceremony needing copying.

It wasn't an elite supplicating in Acts 1, it was all the ordinary members among the 120 (with no doubt more outside). They were already the church and ministering, because they had BOTH imparting since Ascension AND indwelling before Ascension.

"Dialectic" based on false dichotomy and conflation combined, is materialist. If Macarthur started with a humane notion he couldn't equip himself to take it further, because no-one had rolled out the truth in his hearing either.

Wrong answer: you can't have both so they must both be the same thing. Half a Holy Spirit = half a Jesus; if He be not risen and ascended we would be most wretched in an irrelevant mini-salvation.

Right answer = He does both distinctly. In the rubric to Schumann's works he wrote "markirt": don't run the notes together.

 

[OldAbramBrown]

p.s some people esteemed Dr Macarthur for blowing the whistle on much of the half baked and misplaced ecumenism at one time (but sadly to fall for a later version).