struggles with pay it forwards effects and how it leads to hardening of the heart?

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

have anybody noticed how negative treatments from others can lead you to a hardening of the heart? where as kind treatment can sometimes lead to the opposite?

and raising above it is the hardest of all, and many Christians, even mature Christians struggles with this?

sometimes when you being mistreated by others, you change your approach to be more assertive,but the problems is the new assertive approach can never be separated with hatred?

I will give you guys an example, years ago I knew this woman, we will call her pastor C, this woman was a born again believe on the fire for the Lord, but she was also a bully, she is very strong willed, and she often treat people in a dominaring and abrasive manner (in all fairness, I think she know how to pick her target too), but according to her, she is in the right, she doesnt not tolerate fools easily, and neither should her.

However, if you turn around and spoke to her in the same way, you would be dead.

but that kind of summarize her, she basically want to determine what standard she can treat people, she also feel entitled to decide that she can treat people by a complete different standard, and if any one refuse to go along with it, she and her family bulldoze you over with bullying tactics until you submit.

to make the whole more interesting, there were a whole lot audiences that support her, for difference reason. some did because they were her friends, including this other pastor L. some are scared and want to look out for their own interest. etc

one of the things i have developed as result of this experience is the strong feelings that people need to stand up to bullies, bullies need to be dealt as severely as possible because otherwise, most of them will not fully repetent.....

it is like with the whole Mark Driscoll saga, even today, I still believe if Mark wasnt put in a situation where he had to look at his own behaviours and change, wasnt given a choice, he probably would have come up with those half hearted repentence, and keep on his merry way long term.......

so I dont know.....

 

[ValleyGal]

There's a little saying going around FB right now: "Apparently when you treat people the same way they treat you, they get offended." (from Quotesgate)


As I was reading through your post, it seemed you could have been talking about me (although not, since I don't know you). I am a Christian, am strong willed, and some people might see me as abrasive because sometimes I've been known to simply tell it like I see it. I'm also very opinionated about things like social justice, equal rights AND respect, and certain values. And I do not tolerate certain behaviours well, leading me to appear abrasive to them - such as people who use the shoulder of the road to sneak up in traffic and expect you to let them in. I don't let them in and people think that's rude/abrasive.

All that and yet I am a Christian and love the Lord Jesus. There is room in his kingdom for all kinds of personality types, although bullying is more a character defect likely resulting from years of being bullied. It is something you can pray she is healed for, since she likely has many deep wounds that she thinks she can cover by way of controlling other people.

When you are mistreated, be sure to establish a strong sense of boundaries. Only you can let them get away with mistreating you as a pattern of relationship. If you do not have clear boundaries, you are then contributing to your own hardening heart. If you want to keep your heart soft towards her, then you need to assert your boundaries. She can determine for herself how she will treat people. And you can determine for yourself how you will respond, or whether to respond at all. And if she does not start treating you more respectfully, then maybe it is time to disengage altogether.

 

[BFine]

have anybody noticed how negative treatments from others can lead you to a hardening of the heart? where as kind treatment can sometimes lead to the opposite? and raising above it is the hardest of all, and many Christians, even mature Christians struggles with this?

*I grew up in racist surroundings...what I know is this, if I hadn't of had a good foundation of solid biblical teaching/support/prayer/encouragement etc --I would be a bitter woman...that is, if I had of gone
the way many of girls around me did.

sometimes when you being mistreated by others, you change your approach to be more assertive,but the problems is the new assertive approach can never be separated with hatred?

*When I'm mistreated, I tend to stay away from such
persons...or have very little to do with them...that's
how I initially reacted to such treatment at an early age.

I will give you guys an example, years ago I knew this woman, we will call her pastor C, this woman was a born again believe on the fire for the Lord, but she was also a bully, she is very strong willed, and she often treat people in a dominaring and abrasive manner (in all fairness, I think she know how to pick her target too), but according to her, she is in the right, she doesnt not tolerate fools easily, and neither should her.

However, if you turn around and spoke to her in the same way, you would be dead.

but that kind of summarize her, she basically want to determine what standard she can treat people, she also feel entitled to decide that she can treat people by a complete different standard, and if any one refuse to go along with it, she and her family bulldoze you over with bullying tactics until you submit.

*We wouldn't be around such a "minister"...male or female.

to make the whole more interesting, there were a whole lot audiences that support her, for difference reason. some did because they were her friends, including this other pastor L. some are scared and want to look out for their own interest. etc

one of the things i have developed as result of this experience is the strong feelings that people need to stand up to bullies, bullies need to be dealt as severely as possible because otherwise, most of them will not fully repetent.....

it is like with the whole Mark Driscoll saga, even today, I still believe if Mark wasnt put in a situation where he had to look at his own behaviours and change, wasnt given a choice, he probably would have come up with those half hearted repentence, and keep on his merry way long term.......

so I dont know.....

*The Driscoll thing could of been prevented if the
powers-that-be would of listened to certain older ministers who attempted to "check him" but they got over-ruled by those who wanted someone who could bring in the money...er people.

 

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

There's a little saying going around FB right now: "Apparently when you treat people the same way they treat you, they get offended." (from Quotesgate)

As I was reading through your post, it seemed you could have been talking about me (although not, since I don't know you). I am a Christian, am strong willed, and some people might see me as abrasive because sometimes I've been known to simply tell it like I see it. I'm also very opinionated about things like social justice, equal rights AND respect, and certain values. And I do not tolerate certain behaviours well, leading me to appear abrasive to them - such as people who use the shoulder of the road to sneak up in traffic and expect you to let them in. I don't let them in and people think that's rude/abrasive.

no, I wasn't talking about you. I don't know you all that well, but I haven't seen any of your posts that make me think that you are an abrasive person

I have no idea what type of exchanges with you had other users on this forums, but for me you always come across rather level headed, I remember I few years back, I saw you posted some advice to this user you seem to have a history, where you say something like just because you had some difference with her, it doesn't mean you wont help when it is needed, I was quite blown away by that, many Christians in those type of situations would have act all petty petty.

I am not quite sure what you mean by shoulder of the road? I am not Canadian, hence I don't know about the traffic rules over there. Is that something you should not be doing over there because it is against the traffic rule? or is it because those people have a sense of entitlement and if you happen to decide not let them in, they act rude? anyway, I don't like people with a sense of entitlement either, and yes, I always feel those people should absolutely not rewarded for their bad behaviors, otherwise, they will only becoming more blatant and they will never learn to treat people right.

but before I go on further, I think it is important for me to bring up the concept of boundaries and the three types of behaviors associated with it ; assertiveness, aggressiveness and submissiveness.

as you know, what determines a behavior as assertive or aggressive really depends on where the objective boundary lie, if one is being forceful to defend their own boundary, then it is assertive, if they are violating someone else boundary, then is is aggressive, even though the behavior may have been exactly the same.

this is the problem I have with strong willed Christians, many of them seem to think they can decide where the sign posts for those boundaries should be, instead of respecting in many situations there are actually objective signposts any human beings who value fairness should respect. Not only that, they move those signposts at will, to whichever places they want to put them, whenever it suits them. And if people speak up, they immediately resort to bullying behavior to force others to submit.

That is the kind of thing I was talking about with pastor C. For example, her son is a brat of the first magnitude, who bully people and never fully repentant for them, his idea of repentance is "I feel bad for it temporarily, but I don't have to change my behavior long term, because I can't help it, and if you insist to hold me accountable, or speak up the next time I do it, the you are being unloving, you are being unforgiving, and I am going to force you submit by up the ante on my bullying behavior."

In another word, this brat is very good at moving the sign posts, and very good at twisting the scripture to justify his bullying behavior.

Like mother, like son. That's how Pastor C behaves, when his son does wrong, she twist the scripture and insist on people treat his son with love, or "love you brother" as she calls it. Or is it really "allow mine son to treat you like a doormat?"

However, if she is on the receiving end of the exact same behaviors, believe me, there is definitely no "loving your brother" as she often preaches about when it concerns her own son. And her response doesn't just restrict to being assertive, but she will destroy you.

so that is what I mean, she and her family think they can move the sign posts, whenever it suits them, and everyone else just have to go along with it or else.

this is only one example of her shifting sign posting behaviors.

So yes, I acknowledge that church have all kind of personalities, including strong willed one. I don't have problems with strong willed people, I do however, have problems with strong willed people, who thinks through their sheer force of will, they can decide where the signposts should lay, and shift those sign posts whenever it suits them, and bully others other to force them to submit.

I used to this friend A who has a naturally strong willed personality herself, she is definitely one of those people who have no problem telling things like it is , and trust me, she doesn't mince her words either. But I never had problems with her whatsoever, because as a Christian, she has a very strong sense of fairness, she expected to be treated with respect, but she also made damn sure that she treat others in the same way that she want to be treated. The only signposts she uses are the objective ones, and she absolutely does not shift those, even when it may "inconvenient" her.

Because in end of the day, for her, truth is the truth, what is fair is what is fair.

as for your comment on being opinionated? well, again, there is nothing wrong with speaks one's mind, and make your view known clearly.

but again, there is still a boundary to observe (I am not talking about you, but in a general sense here). It is one thing to be vocal, but one still have to be respectful of the other person, so behaviors such as name callings, put downs, sarcasms intent to cut the other person down, telling the other person to shut the hell up, and especially attempt to use one's size to intimate others to silence them, are not acceptable behaviors, period!

so there is nothing wrong with being strong and assertive, but there is something very wrong with being aggressive.

although bullying is more a character defect likely resulting from years of being bullied. It is something you can pray she is healed for, since she likely has many deep wounds that she thinks she can cover by way of controlling other people.

good points.

I will try to pray for her

I also hope that people around her will stand up to her.

When you are mistreated, be sure to establish a strong sense of boundaries. Only you can let them get away with mistreating you as a pattern of relationship. If you do not have clear boundaries, you are then contributing to your own hardening heart. If you want to keep your heart soft towards her, then you need to assert your boundaries. She can determine for herself how she will treat people. And you can determine for yourself how you will respond, or whether to respond at all. And if she does not start treating you more respectfully, then maybe it is time to disengage altogether.

good points. Thank you very much!

I think you are right, I think in the past I let fear get in my way of being assertive.

with this women, she and her family have resorted to tactics that is bordering on physical bullying. In fact, her son have resort to behaviors that basically challenges me to a fistfight.

people in that church all saw it.

yet all of them either blindly took her side, helping her slander me or bully me.

so beside their tactics, many times I feel like it is one against them all

which felt very intimidating at the time.

but God will repay, and I hope He will make them pay through the nose.

 

[ValleyGal]

Traveller, I knew you weren't talking about me...but there are those in my life who would say the same thing about me that you say about Pastor C. Anyway, I appreciate the kindness you show in your post. Thank you.

I think you are right, I think in the past I let fear get in my way of being assertive.

What are you afraid of specifically?

with this women, she and her family have resorted to tactics that is bordering on physical bullying. In fact, her son have resort to behaviors that basically challenges me to a fistfight.

Yes, I have encountered real bullying as well - even from a supervisor at a previous place of employment. When you feel in your body that you are getting upset about how they are treating you (for me, I feel it as heat starting in my chest, or sometimes as a sinking feeling in my stomach), remind yourself that they are provoking you, and then don't give them the satisfaction. If you let it get the best of you, that's what they want, and then they know the things that push your buttons.

but God will repay, and I hope He will make them pay through the nose.

It is good to know that they are answerable to God and will some day have to account for how they treated people. But as a gentle reminder, we too, are accountable - not only for our actions, but also for our spirit. For this reason, I am going to address the second part of your comment here. If you hope that God will make them pay through the nose, you might be letting God have his own vengeance in action, but your spirit is still vengeful in this matter.

I will tell you a little story. When my first husband left, I was devastated. I was a new first-time mom and had no resources. I was angry that he would do this, and never send help to raise our son. In fact, he never even spent time with our son! It would have been very easy to become bitter, try to make him pay, etc. But instead, I wanted my marriage to work in spite of his running away from home. I started working on how to get my husband to want to come home. I started working out, got involved in the community, volunteered, learned to dance, went to college to become a nurse, got a job... and in two years, my husband asked to reconcile. We tried, but after only two weeks, I realized that it was never going to work. Without even knowing it, I'd moved on! So I told him it was not going to work and we should go ahead with the divorce (we had filed a year before that). It was his turn.... he could not have me anymore, and tbh, that was the best "revenge" - keeping a soft heart to him, desiring to do what was right, becoming what he wanted me to be, but in becoming so, learning that life was much better without him dragging me down.

The point of the story is this. If you have a vengeful spirit, your heart will become bitter and hard, but if you align your heart and mind to God's ways, you will find that this alignment is actually part of God's plan of "vengeance" - for them to see you becoming more Christ-like will be torture for them, as your gentle and kind spirit will become more and more evident that the Spirit is working in you...and they may very well end up hating you for that - one more thing for them to have to answer to God for. But at least you will know that your heart and mind are clean before God and your righteousness in Christ will be evident.

 

[TravelerFarAwayFromHome]

What are you afraid of specifically?.

in that situation with Pastor C and her family, mine physical safety, and they have already resorted to bullying that were bordering on physical intimidation.

but this is a good question.

I don't know, in most situations, when it is one against the rest ( often slanders or alliances are involved) sooner of later the "one" would have to leave, regardless of what the truth actually was.

Yes, I have encountered real bullying as well - even from a supervisor at a previous place of employment. When you feel in your body that you are getting upset about how they are treating you (for me, I feel it as heat starting in my chest, or sometimes as a sinking feeling in my stomach), remind yourself that they are provoking you, and then don't give them the satisfaction. If you let it get the best of you, that's what they want, and then they know the things that push your buttons.



It is good to know that they are answerable to God and will some day have to account for how they treated people. But as a gentle reminder, we too, are accountable - not only for our actions, but also for our spirit. For this reason, I am going to address the second part of your comment here. If you hope that God will make them pay through the nose, you might be letting God have his own vengeance in action, but your spirit is still vengeful in this matter.

I will tell you a little story. When my first husband left, I was devastated. I was a new first-time mom and had no resources. I was angry that he would do this, and never send help to raise our son. In fact, he never even spent time with our son! It would have been very easy to become bitter, try to make him pay, etc. But instead, I wanted my marriage to work in spite of his running away from home. I started working on how to get my husband to want to come home. I started working out, got involved in the community, volunteered, learned to dance, went to college to become a nurse, got a job... and in two years, my husband asked to reconcile. We tried, but after only two weeks, I realized that it was never going to work. Without even knowing it, I'd moved on! So I told him it was not going to work and we should go ahead with the divorce (we had filed a year before that). It was his turn.... he could not have me anymore, and tbh, that was the best "revenge" - keeping a soft heart to him, desiring to do what was right, becoming what he wanted me to be, but in becoming so, learning that life was much better without him dragging me down.

The point of the story is this. If you have a vengeful spirit, your heart will become bitter and hard, but if you align your heart and mind to God's ways, you will find that this alignment is actually part of God's plan of "vengeance" - for them to see you becoming more Christ-like will be torture for them, as your gentle and kind spirit will become more and more evident that the Spirit is working in you...and they may very well end up hating you for that - one more thing for them to have to answer to God for. But at least you will know that your heart and mind are clean before God and your righteousness in Christ will be evident.

thank you very much for your correction and reminder

I really appreciate it