Struggles with Calvinism

[twin1954]

Perhaps God ORDAINS every typo or autocorrect I post.

Twin, I did not know about Luther and Melancthon"killing Anabaptists by the score".
Document if you want.

Of course He does. If He didn't then some things take Him by surprise and He learns and changes. If He looks down through time to see what happens the same thing is true.

If God has not ordained every minute detail then He is reacting to us and must then learn something that He didn't already know.

Romans 11:33-36 (KJV) 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

 

[twin1954]

Perhaps God ORDAINS every typo or autocorrect I post.

Twin, I did not know about Luther and Melancthon"killing Anabaptists by the score".
Document if you want.

I will see what I can come up with.

 

[His student]

I guess God unchangeably ordains what all persons post in this thread, if what some Calvinist confessions allege is true, so no use saying what we posters "should have done" or where the OP should have posted.

What a silly post.

Are you insinuating that Calvinist confessions allege that God is the author of what we chose to write here or that He forces us to write it?

I don't see that at all. In fact I see them saying just the opposite.

However - I do see in scripture that God authored what the writers in the Bible wrote down - even though He didn't force them to write it.

You may want to at consider how that could be when you begin another rant about absolute free will.

I'm always amazed at the those who object strenuously to the idea of God working concurrently with the free choices made by men to do what He wants to do at the same time they do what they want to do - when we have a perfect example of Him doing just that in the scriptures we all believe and quote.

However - apparently - some here refuse to believe them, especially when that belief would challenge their long held beliefs (such as that those Calvinist have it all wrong).

Of course - our posts are not scripture are they?

That's not to say that He isn't speaking through me in this thread.

Some of you other guys - obviously not so much.

Perhaps God ORDAINS every typo or autocorrect I post.

There you go again.

 

[Tra Phull]

What about God "going down to Sodom to see what was what"?

 

[Tra Phull]

His student -you really like to use the word "silly" concerning posts you don't agree with, don't you?

 

[twin1954]

I will see what I can come up with.

Do a search of Luther and the Anabaptists and of Luther and the peasants rebellion.

 

[Tra Phull]

I question whether we have done Emsmom1 a disservice in our responses, there is the private messages to take into consideration, no one sees mine and I don't see theirs.

 

[twin1954]

What about God "going down to Sodom to see what was what"?

It is an anthropomorphism. Using human traits attributed to God in order for us to grasp what God was doing. Of course He didn't need to go down to Sodom to learn what was what.

 

[twin1954]

I question whether we have done Emsmom1 a disservice in our responses, there is the private messages to take into consideration, no one sees mine and I don't see theirs.

True.

 

[Tra Phull]

I tend to agree with you, twin, about anthropomorphism and God really not needing to "go look" at Sodom.

 

[Butch5]

That is so like what I have seen from you in the past.

What a silly cop out post. It's right up there with - "Show me a passage that says 'God decrees all things that take place'."

Please note what I said.

His student said: ↑
......... According to the scriptures:

These are your words from post #411

My way of dealing with it theologically is to say, among other things:

"He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works ALL things after the counsel of His will," Ephesians 1:9-11

AND

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

Many will take exception to me quoting the Westminster Confession. But I see no reason to re invent the wheel when it comes to summing up this mystery.

In the Scripture quote you bolded "who works all things after the council of His will".

Then you quoted the Westminster Confession that says, God ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

Now it seems your statement is that God works all things according to the Scriptures, is this correct?

Quite often in these debates I find that people equivocate. That's a logical fallacy. Sometimes all mean all and sometimes it only means the elect. My question to you is, does God ordain everything according to His will or does He ordain whatsoever comes to pass? It can't be both ways. You've got to choose.

Actually, I have another question, have you considered this passage in context?

 

[Tra Phull]

Hey, Butch5 - His student thinks we are SILLY!

Have you committed suicide over that yet?

I am holding off on my suicide for now.

The clinic on logical fallacies continues.

 

[twin1954]

These are your words from post #411

My way of dealing with it theologically is to say, among other things:

"He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works ALL things after the counsel of His will," Ephesians 1:9-11

AND

"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass: yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin, nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."

Many will take exception to me quoting the Westminster Confession. But I see no reason to re invent the wheel when it comes to summing up this mystery.

In the Scripture quote you bolded "who works all things after the council of His will".

Then you quoted the Westminster Confession that says, God ordained whatsoever comes to pass.

Now it seems your statement is that God works all things according to the Scriptures, is this correct?

Quite often in these debates I find that people equivocate. That's a logical fallacy. Sometimes all mean all and sometimes it only means the elect. My question to you is, does God ordain everything according to His will or does He ordain whatsoever comes to pass? It can't be both ways. You've got to choose.

Actually, I have another question, have you considered this passage in context?

Actually the word "all" must be qualified. The context usually does that. The question is all what or whom? The answer is usually found in the context.

You create a false dichotomy in your first question. It can be and is both.

I will give you a verse to ponder:

Romans 11:33-36 (KJV) 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

 

[Butch5]

The old tired Servetus argument. You need to actually read the history of that occurrence instead of making a false claim.

Calvin sought mercy for Sevetus. He tried to get him to recant his heresy. Servetus was well known in Europe for his heresy and knew going in that the rulers of Geneva would put him to death if he went there. He went anyway.

Calvin didn't murder Servetus the rulers of Geneva did.

Moreover, you simply cannot judge history from your modern perspective. It has a context and a culture that must be understood.

Are you aware of Calvin's influence and authority. If Calvin had wanted to stop it he could have. He didn't.

 

[danielmears]

I'm sure this will open up a can of worms, but here goes. I am a very new believer (it hasn't been a week) so I know very little. But I have been reading about Calvinism for years, out of curiosity and, well, because it terrifies me.
I understand (and feel deeply) that God is sovereign. I even understand how some people can believe that free will takes away from God's sovereignty. What I don't understand is why both can't be true-why can't God be sovereign AND allow free will? Now, I get that greater minds than mine have debated this, so I am trying to get to the place where I am okay with not having to know the answer to every question. This is hard.
But here's the thing-I can't quit crying. I get that God can do anything he wants, but Calvinism makes me so sad. I went to see my seven-year-old niece last night and all I could think about was if she were to ask me if God loves her, what could I say? Maybe? We'll have to wait and see? He might actually hate you and take delight in your everlasting punishment?
My whole life the one constant was "God loves you" (I grew up in a non-denominational Arminian church). Calvinism turns that on it's head. To me, it turns John 3:16 into "For God so loved the ELECT that he gave his only begotten Son..."
But here's the rub-my belief FEELS like a gift. If someone had told me two weeks ago I would be a Christian, let alone a bible-believing Christian, I would have thought they were insane (I had contemplated "becoming" a liberal Christian, thinking I could pick and choose what I would believe, if you can imagine, but never an orthodox Christian).
So, I don't know what to think.
Also, I'm open to private messages if people don't want to post on the thread.

God is love, light and spirit the scriptures reveal. Jesus also told us the holy spirit will reveal things to come to us. The prophets show us that God knows the future, He is outside of time and sees all. So, yes He knows how our time on earth turns out but we do not unless He reveals some to us. Therefore, it is up to us to make good choices, to walk in faith, to love as commanded, doing what Christ said. God IS love and He tells us, fear not, I am with you, to not be dismayed, that He will uphold us. So quit worrying, walk in love knowing God is with you and all of us. Glory to God!

 

[Butch5]

Actually the word "all" must be qualified. The context usually does that. The question is all what or whom? The answer is usually found in the context.

You create a false dichotomy in your first question. It can be and is both.

I will give you a verse to ponder:

Romans 11:33-36 (KJV) 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Wow, we actually agree on a point. Context is of the utmost importance. It's context that shows the passages that are used to support Calvinism don't. There's not a false dichotomy in my statement at all. If God works all things according to what He wants to do that doesn't mean He works all things that happen. In the first instance the all things is qualified by "what He wants to" We know that God doesn't want sin so that wouldn't be part of his Paul statement. However, the Confession says all things whatsoever. There's a difference.

Regarding the passage you posted, can you elaborate? I have no idea what you're getting at.

 

[His student]

My question to you is, does God ordain everything according to His will or does He ordain whatsoever comes to pass? It can't be both ways. You've got to choose.

Read carefully from your own post:

........who works ALL things after the counsel of His will," Ephesians 1:9-11
AND
"God, from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:.......

He "works" all things after the counsel of His will - including the results of our bad choices.

He "ordained" what comes to pass to come to pass.

The two statements are obviously different.

I don't have to choose between them. Both are true. An example follows.

Right up front since you seem prone to misrepresent other people's beliefs - God did not author the sins of Caiaphas - they were all his choice to do or not to do. Any charge that I or the Calvinists teach different are simply lies at this stage since we have said so many times and in so many ways that God does no violence to the relatively free will of men.

But He did ordain that those choices occur or come to pass in history according to the clear teaching that we find in the book of acts.

He also worked those evil choices together for good for those who believe on Christ - all according to His sovereign will to so work.

Both are true.

The only way to say that they can not both be true is to change one of the constructs (i.e. - "lie" about what is being said in one or both statements).

Of course that's quite common here. Hopefully you won't do so in your next post. You can of course. It is likely that God won't stop you. But that would be a sinful choice that God allows you to make (and that you were also predestined to make by the way even though you would not be coerced by God to do so).

His student -you really like to use the word "silly" concerning posts you don't agree with, don't you?

Hey, Butch5 - His student thinks we are SILLY!

It's either silly, ignorant, or evil. I choose to call you silly because you say such silly things.

 

[Tra Phull]

ALL sometimes means a real ALL, sometimes it's a "Calvinist all".

ALL OF JUDEA didn't go out to be baptized by John the Baptist.

We just try to let context decide.

 

[Tra Phull]

Hey SILLY-MAN, it's so good that you don't conclusively consider me evil or ignorant, my suicide may be post-poned indefinitely!

You gotta get with it, even twin and I find some things to agree on.

How bout God "going down to Sodom to look and see" - do you agree it's anthropomorphic and God really did already know?

 

[Butch5]

Read carefully from your own post:

He "works" all things after the counsel of His will - including the results of our bad choices.

He "ordained" what comes to pass to come to pass.

The two statements are obviously different.

I don't have to choose between them. Both are true. An example follows.

Right up front since you seem prone to misrepresent other people's beliefs - God did not author the sins of Caiaphas - they were all his choice to do or not to do. Any charge that I or the Calvinists teach different are simply lies at this stage since we have said so many times and in so many ways that God does no violence to the relatively free will of men.

But He did ordain that those choices occur or come to pass in history according to the clear teaching that we find in the book of acts.

He also worked those evil choices together for good for those who believe on Christ - all according to His sovereign will to so work.

Both are true.

The only way to say that they can not both be true is to change one of the constructs (i.e. - "lie" about what is being said in one or both statements).

Of course that's quite common here. Hopefully you won't do so in your next post. You can of course. It is likely that God won't stop you. But that would be a sinful choice that God allows you to make (and that you were also predestined to make by the way even though you would not be coerced by God to do so).
It's either silly, ignorant, or evil. I choose to call you silly because you say such silly things.

For anyone who may be new to this, take note. You will see this quite often. When you question those who hold these views they will speak in circles and accuse you of being this or that. Sometimes you'll be accused of misrepresenting their argument, sometimes you'll be called a liar, etc. Get used to it, it's part of the process.

Now, notice the word games, this is common too. An author writes a story. Does the author determine everything that happens in that story? Yes. Does the author determine who is good and who is bad in that story? Yes. Is there anything in that story that the author doesn't determine? No. So, here we have the statement, "God did not author the sins of Caiaphas". Now remember God wrote the story, He's the author. He determines everything that happens in the story. Now we have the other statement, "But He did ordain that those choices occur or come to pass in history according to the clear teaching that we find in the book of acts." So, God wrote the story but didn't author Caiaphas' sin, yet somehow He ordained it.

In other words, there's something in the story that the author didn't write, but he wrote it. Can you see the logical contradiction? This is why many people fall for Calvinism. It's these word games that many don't pick up on that subtly allow them to fall for these doctrines. When we stop and really think though what is being said we can see the errors. They're subtle and easily missed. Evolutionists use this same type of argument which is why so many think evolution is legitimate.

Now, I know we're going to hear the argument that I'm misrepresenting Calvinism and that Calvinists don't teach that God interferes with man's free will, and that may be true. Maybe they don't teach it. However, it's the logical outcome of the doctrines they teach.