Struggles with Calvinism

[setst777]

Your logic is false. By allowing the surgeon to preform the operation the patient has done what others may not do. They have saved themselves by allowing the surgeon to operate on them. No way around it. Twist it whatever way you like there is no way around it.

Actually a non sequitur is something that is obviously true.

Perhaps you need to do a little more study in logic?

Your logic is false. By allowing the surgeon to preform the operation the patient has done what others may not do. They have saved themselves by allowing the surgeon to operate on them. No way around it. Twist it whatever way you like there is no way around it.

setst RE: The Scriptures teach throughout (OT and NT) that we must first believe in Jesus in order to be saved.

For instance:

John 3:16-18 (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

What you are proposing contradicts the clear teaching of Scripture in order to hold onto your own reasoning...

You own reasoning is teaching you to accept that God saves you so you can believe in Him. That is the opposite of what Scripture teaches us. Yet you discredit God's Word on the matter as promoting self-righteousness. God calls this humility.

Luke 18:10-14 (NIV)
10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood by himself and prayed: ‘God, I thank you that I am not like other people—robbers, evildoers, adulterers—or even like this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.’
13 “But the tax collector stood at a distance. He would not even look up to heaven, but beat his breast and said, ‘God, have mercy on me, a sinner.’
14 “I tell you that this man, rather than the other, went home justified before God. For all those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted.”

 

[Dave L]

Since Dave doesn't read posts over 2 paragraphs, I'm going to very loosely assume, unless I missed his reply, that's why my 3 sentence post, each separated by a space went unanswered. So I'm posing it again to be sure it wasn't just skipped as I suspect. I suspect he just didn't answer because half the posts here are over two paragraphs, and Dave himself posts them more than two paragraphs, so something doesn't sound right. I go through all that because something seems odd about the skipping posts comment, but mostly because the question had to do with posting false/tricky information in order to back Calvinism, and that needs to be pointed out, beyond doubt for new Christians or seekers of true and proper doctrine.

2 questions) Who is it that saves themselves with Gods help there as you claimed? I ask because I have no idea who claims that, yet you call it one of the only three possibilities to salvation. Also, do you know from where those so-called 3 possibilities originated?

My last article Do Dispensationalists share in the guilt of bloodshed related to Israel? Was 103 words.
Albert says;

"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough."

- Albert Einstein

God says;

“He who restrains his words has knowledge, And he who has a cool spirit is a man of understanding. Even a fool, when he keeps silent, is considered wise; When he closes his lips, he is considered prudent.” Proverbs 17:27–28 (NASB95)

“For a dream cometh through the multitude of business; and a fool’s voice is known by multitude of words.” Ecclesiastes 5:3 (KJV 1900)

“For in the multitude of dreams and many words there are also divers vanities: but fear thou God.” Ecclesiastes 5:7 (KJV 1900)

 

[Dave L]

The entire Bible disproves Calvinism, but I will quote some Passages in answer to your question...

Unlike what Calvinism teaches, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

God himself pleads with us to repent and to remain remain faithful.

Luke 13:34 (WEB) 34 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that kills the prophets, and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, like a hen gathers her own brood under her wings, and you refused!

Ezekiel 33:11-12 (NIV) 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’"

God only changes your heart after you first repent and believe:

“A new heart and a new spirit” is defined as regeneration – a new creation that is accessed only by a repentant faith.

Ezekiel 18 (NIV) Bolding mine… 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?

Potter and the Clay....

In Jeremiah 18:2-11 (the Passage Paul used in Romans 9), God (the Potter) purposes to form into a vessel of honor only those who repent. We must repent first. . . .

Jeremiah 18:2-11 (WEB) Bolding mine… 3 So I went down to the potter’s house, and I saw him working at the wheel. 4 But the pot he was shaping from the clay was marred in his hands; so the potter formed it into another pot, shaping it as seemed best to him. . . 11 Now therefore, speak to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, saying, Yahweh says: Behold, I frame evil against you, and devise a device against you: return you now everyone from his evil way, and amend your ways and your doings.

How a person or nation reacts in God's (Potter's) hands, will determine how God chooses to form the clay. The fact that the clay is marred in God's hands is not God's doing.

Rather, the clay itself was marred, so God formed it for destruction.

God then summarizes in verse 11 - God is telling them the responsibility is on them to repent and God would reconsider the punishment He had intended against them.

Ezekiel 33:11-12 (NIV) 11 Say to them, ‘As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign Lord, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways! Why will you die, people of Israel?’
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

In other words, God does not ordain good and evil, and all that occurs; rather, a Sovereign God righteously works out His will according to His omniscience and omnipotence. God’s sovereignty, glory and perfect will is being worked out in His creation in which every person is responsible for his own choices.

Jeremiah 18 is the bases for Paul’s reasoning of Romans 9, which confirms this very thing regarding God’s Sovereignty. This reality clearly shows the indescribable depth of God’s Sovereignty, Wisdom and Foresight, which is unlike any human sovereignty in that a Sovereign God is able to work out His perfect will and plans while at the same time allowing mankind free will choices.

Same in the following verses:

2 Timothy 2 (WEB) Bolding mine… 19 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.”
20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore cleanses himself from latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.

God forms a vessel into something honorable and sanctified but only if they cleanse themselves.

So, God, as the Potter, will have mercy on whom He will have mercy. The Scriptures declare throughout the OT and NT that God chooses to have mercy on those who repent, and chooses to harden those who obstinately keep refusing His grace.

If God has to harden someone heart so they can no longer respond to His grace, then that means that, IF God had not hardened their hearts in judgment, they could have believed.

That is why Paul, at the end of Romans 9, sums up why God had punished Israel – because they pursued righteousness not by faith but by works. This is actually how Scripture itself teaches us regarding God’s Sovereignty from Genesis to Revelation.

In this way, a Sovereign and Holy God remains an impartial and righteous judge who genuinely loves righteousness and genuinely hates sin, rather than a God of Calvinism who forms people for damnation and others for salvation, which would make God responsible for all the good and evil in the world. As we have seen, by one of Calvinist’s strongest proof texts, Romans 9, this is, thankfully, not the case.

God shows no partiality

1 Peter 1:15-20 (NIV)
15 But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; 16 for it is written: “Be holy, because I am holy.”
17 Since you call on a Father who judges each person’s work impartially, live out your time as foreigners here in reverent fear.

Unlike what Calvinism teaches,

• God does not form or cause anyone to sin. Rather, each person sins by his own choice.
• And God always puts the responsibility on each person to remain faithful to receive life - OT and NT.

James 1:13-16 (NIV)
12 Blessed is the one who perseveres under trial because, having stood the test, that person will receive the crown of life that the Lord has promised to those who love him.
13 When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14 but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed. 15 Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death.
16 Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers and sisters.

Galatians 6:7-9 (NIV)
7 Do not be deceived: God cannot be mocked.
A man reaps what he sows. 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up.

Hebrews 3:12-13 (NIV)
12 See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness.

If you read free will into scripture, you can make it read differently than intended.

 

[twin1954]

In your post #364, twin, you said:

"Actually a non sequitur is something that is obviously true."

?

And I was wrong on that.

 

[twin1954]

What's my FILTER?

Your presupposition of free will.

 

[twin1954]

In your post #329, twin, you said that I was WRONG, that I come with presumptions, that I obviously build straw men, and that I don't know what Calvinism teaches

After that I pointed out your arrogance and hubris, and I still do

And I suppose that you don't come across as arrogant on here. The fact that I disagree with you makes me arrogant?

 

[zoidar]

I haven't read this whole thread. But it's sad when a woman is in pain and seeking help, it ends up in a debate.

 

[twin1954]

Let's see those scriptures that prove THE TWO OUTCOMES OF FREE WILL

It comes from years of experience. Do you deny the Trinity because there isn't a verse that spells it out clearly?

 

[twin1954]

I haven't read this whole thread. But it's sad when a woman is in pain and seeking help, it ends up in a debate.

Very true.

 

[Tra Phull]

The source of her pain in was evident in the title of the thread.

 

[twin1954]

But OTHERS can allow a surgeon to operate on them - how did this patient DO WHAT OTHERS CANNOT DO?

The Scriptures speak more about our unwillingness than about our inability. Though they do clearly teach our inability. It isn't really about if we cannot come, it is about the truth that we will not come to Christ that we might have life.

In the quote above you put words in my mouth. It wasn't my analogy. I only commented on it.

 

[Tra Phull]

I do not deny the Trinity. 1st John 5:7 is a disputed verse by some, but does spell it out clearly. Oneness Pentecostals and Trinitarians do deny the Trinity, they are wrong, but do not deserve execution because of their beliefs, as Calvin had Servetus executed.

 

[twin1954]

The source of her pain in was evident in the title of the thread.

But all of us should have consoled her instead of going on the attack.

Her questions should have been posted in the Ask a Calvist forum where she could have gotten answers from Calvinsts rather than a whole bunch of attacks on Calvinism. She could have then made up her own mind on the issues.

 

[twin1954]

I do not deny the Trinity. 1st John 5:7 is a disputed verse by some, but does spell it out clearly. Oneness Pentecostals and Trinitarians do deny the Trinity, they are wrong, but do not deserve execution because of their beliefs, as Calvin had Servetus executed.

The old tired Servetus argument. You need to actually read the history of that occurrence instead of making a false claim.

Calvin sought mercy for Sevetus. He tried to get him to recant his heresy. Servetus was well known in Europe for his heresy and knew going in that the rulers of Geneva would put him to death if he went there. He went anyway.

Calvin didn't murder Servetus the rulers of Geneva did.

Moreover, you simply cannot judge history from your modern perspective. It has a context and a culture that must be understood.

 

[twin1954]

There is a preponderance of scriptures WARNING us, make your calling and election sure, "lest I be a castaway", "ye are fallen from grace"

All these warnings, meaningless if one cannot fall from grace.

Each of those quotes has a context. You assume too much.

 

[Tra Phull]

If belief in free will is a "filter", then the majority of Christians, present and throughout history, have this "filter", and the only ones who do not are the Calvinists who deny free will.

 

[twin1954]

The patient has done what others may not do

How so?

The doctor can save the patient only if the patient allows him to. That puts the onus on the patient and therefore he saves himself when he allows the doctor to operate on him.

 

[Tra Phull]

You, twin, assume that posters here "should have done" other than we did, and that the OP "should have posted elsewhere". She can still "make up her own mind" on the issues.

 

[twin1954]

If belief in free will is a "filter", then the majority of Christians, present and throughout history, have this "filter", and the only ones who do not are the Calvinists who deny free will.

That may be but free will is the default thinking of natural man. Man naturally want to take control of their destiny and rob God of His glory. Read Rom. 1 and Rom. 3.

 

[Tra Phull]

Now you assume, twin, that I have NOT READ THE HISTORY OF THE SERVETUS INCIDENT.

I have read it, I have posted in this thread about my awareness that Calvin wanted beheading rather than burning. I am aware that Calvin tried to get Server is to recant