Struggle with the Trinity and Divinity of Jesus

[terryjohn]

The one thing we cannot be taught or told to believe by men is that Christ is God. This is why Christ said that, blessed are we for God himself has shown us this. When you think about it, this is only how it should be for no man can come to Christ unless the father brings him. The issue is why we do not seek God's answer to this issue.

 

[hedrick]

Hi ToBeLoved, I believe Hedrick may be referring to Docetism, a first century heresy that St. John wrote against in his 1st & 2nd Epistles (i.e. 1 John 4:1-3). Basically, the belief was that Jesus was purely Divine and that, while we may have experienced Him here in some manner, it was never as a human being (He only "appeared" to be human according to this particular heresy).

I hope that helps.

(Hedrick, if I have misrepresented what you meant, I apologize, and if so, please correct me.)

Thanks!

--David

Yes. And as I said, it was rejected.

 

[jenny1972]

Hello everyone. I was raised in a Christian community and family. I believe in God. I love the message Jesus give us. I just fall short on my belief in the trinity and divinity. I'm a husband and a father. My children love Jesus and God I've never expressed my personal views torwards them.

And I haven't been comfortable talking about it except with one other person who I work with most of the time in the oilfield. He also comes from a Christian background and shared a very similar view as me.

I look at all of us as sons and daughters of god. As I get older and think of it more. I feel like I'm becoming more of a deist I think.

The important thing is your relationship with God ... God alone can reveal to you who and what Jesus was and is . God can very easily speak to you directly on this issue since you have a relationship with Him , and the wisdom that you receive from Him directly should be trusted regardless of what other humans believe about the issue . Ask God to reveal to you who Jesus was and what He was and you will receive the only answer that matters and that is the Truth .

 

[TexasDriller]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone again. For the positive responses and helpful suggestions. It's really helped me so far.

 

[orangeness365]

I think of the trinity as different parts of one being. The same way we can have a head, a hand, and a foot, and still have one body, so the trinity has multiple parts but is one God. I think of the passage about the body of Christ in relation to the trinity. I think it has a double meaning. 1 Corinthians 12:12
English Standard Version
For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ.

 

[AvgJoe]

Thank you everyone for taking the time to reply.

As for why I struggle with these. I wasn't consistently in the church growing up. Maybe saying I was raised in a "Christian Family" wasn't the best description. We all believed in God and I just knew some of the more basic things. We went to church every once and a while. I know it sounds bad but I didn't never even realize the trinity / divinity aspect of Jesus until I was older.

So as the years went by I guess I have more or less formed my own view. Instead of what I should have learned if I was consistently in the church early on.

My view was God sent Jesus to give us his word and love. And to be his sacrifice for us. But I honestly never even considered Jesus as being God. I've always looked at us all being the sons and daughters of God.

When I prayed as a kid. I always prayed to God. And I would give thanks to Jesus.

And as I got older and more curious about more things in life. And really started to learn the teachings of Christianity it was just a shock to me.

That's why I decided to look for a forum on Christianity. And try to read other people's views as well.

My work keeps me gone working in the field a majority of the time. So most of the learning I can do is reading. So I thought this would be a good place to try to be more social about religion and views.

Didn't mean to upset anyone or imply Jesus as to be a lunatic or anything close to that. If it came off that way.

Thank yall

There are many verses, throughout the Bible, that express Jesus' divinity. Following are a few I put together back when I was wrestling with this same issue.


Jesus is The Word / Jesus is God

Who is the Word?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus is the Word.
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(John 1:1, 14) 1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 14. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Who is this Word?

(John 1:15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.

(John 1:29-30) 29. The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sins of the world. 30. This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man which is preferred before me: for he was before me.

John bore witness of the Word. John said Jesus is the one of which he bore witness. Jesus is the Word.

So,

(John 1:1, 14) 1. In the beginning was (Jesus), and (Jesus) was with God, and (Jesus) was God. 14. And (Jesus) was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Jesus is the Word. The Word is God. Jesus is God.

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(Revelation 13:19) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

Who is this Word of God?

Some of the attributes of the Word of God:
1) Rev. 19:12: His eyes were as flame of fire
2) Rev. 19:15: out of His mouth goeth a sharp sword
3) Rev. 19:16 : His name is KINGS OF KINDS AND LORD OF LORDS.

Who eyes were as flame of fire?
Revelation 2:18 - Jesus, the Son of God, hath eyes like unto a flame of fire.

Who has a sharp sword that goeth out of His mouth?
Revelation 1:16 - Out of Jesus' mouth went a sharp, two-edged, sword.

Who's name is KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS?
Revelation 17:14 - The Lamb is the KING OF KINGS AND LORDS OF LORDS.

Who is the Lamb?
John 1:29 - Jesus is the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

Jesus is The Word of God!

(Revelation 13:19) And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called (Jesus).

Jesus is the Word / Jesus is God

And here is a link to a good article on this subject~~~> http://www.gotquestions.org/is-Jesus-God.html .

From the same source, here is a link to a good article about the Trinity~~~> http://www.gotquestions.org/Trinity-Bible.html .

Below is the Trinity chart. It shows the Scripture references that show the personhood and Godhood of each member of the Trinity.

​

 

[TexasDriller]

Thank you AvgJoe.

 

[AvgJoe]

Thank you AvgJoe.

You're welcome TexasDriller. I hope it is helpful to you.

 

[Steven Wood]

Hello everyone. I was raised in a Christian community and family. I believe in God. I love the message Jesus give us. I just fall short on my belief in the trinity and divinity. I'm a husband and a father. My children love Jesus and God I've never expressed my personal views torwards them.

And I haven't been comfortable talking about it except with one other person who I work with most of the time in the oilfield. He also comes from a Christian background and shared a very similar view as me.

I look at all of us as sons and daughters of god. As I get older and think of it more. I feel like I'm becoming more of a deist I think.

Please do not become a deist because satan has been given reign over this world for the time being and looking to to this world for answers will give you the wrong ones. Think about the trinity like this The Father, the WORD, and the Holy Spirit. GOD the Father is the creator of everything, He spoke everything into existence that's why everything he says has to be true, if he was able to lie then nothing could exist. He breathed his spirit which is life into Adam and also life/his spirit came down unto Mary and she became pregnant. GOD's spirit which was GOD was jesus, his words were true, he could not lie because we was GOD. He had to be born of man to be able to sin and reject it to be a sacrifice but he had to be GOD to be able to reject sin. He could not be born under sin and held by it that's why he needed to be born of a virgin untouched by man and not conceived in the natural way. In the beginning was the word, and the word was with GOD and the word Was GOD. Jesus is the word, born by the Holy spirit/GOD. The trinity is correct but it has been taught really in an incomplete way. I really hope this might help a little. GOD bless.

 

[TexasDriller]

Thanks @Steven Wood

I've actually been reading more lately and have got lots of great scriptures to read from people here. Also figuring out that the bible app I have will work like an audio book has helped. Especially on 8+ hr drives. Gives me a good chance to listen to more of the gospels. Actually came across a different site that was for Jews converting to Christianity and I really enjoyed reading there posts and views also.

I feel I have definitely made a lot of progress personally. Biggest next step for me "I think" is to get back in a church and be active in it.

I've talked to my wife a lot more about it lately. She likes going to church and the kids being in the church environment. She hasn't gone in a while though. She has a family member that is homosexual. And she is really getting tired of the preaching on homosexuality. Myself I'm more of a conservative person and have my own views on that topic. So it may be hard to find a church near us that doesn't do much preaching against it.

Once again I'd like to thank everyone that has replied to this thread for me. God bless

 

[Job8]

Hello everyone. I was raised in a Christian community and family. I believe in God. I love the message Jesus give us. I just fall short on my belief in the trinity and divinity. I'm a husband and a father. My children love Jesus and God I've never expressed my personal views towards them.

People "struggle" with the doctrine of God because they approach it as though human reasoning will provide answers. The fact of the matter is that the Bible speaks of the "Mystery of God" and the "Mystery of Godliness". Perhaps your biggest obstacle is simply a lack of familiarity with the Bible itself, and Bible Truth concerning the doctrines of God and Christ.

A Christian simply needs to believe (1) JESUS IS GOD, AS WELL AS THE GOD-MAN and (2) GOD IS ONE, BUT HAS ETERNALLY EXISTED AS THREE DIVINE PERSONS (the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost). This is simply a matter of believing, not analyzing God.

Deism is a departure from Bible Truth.
It is belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind. The Cross of Christ completely refutes Deism.

 

[TexasDriller]

Thanks @Job8

 

[TexasDriller]

People "struggle" with the doctrine of God because they approach it as though human reasoning will provide answers. The fact of the matter is that the Bible speaks of the "Mystery of God" and the "Mystery of Godliness". Perhaps your biggest obstacle is simply a lack of familiarity with the Bible itself, and Bible Truth concerning the doctrines of God and Christ.

A Christian simply needs to believe (1) JESUS IS GOD, AS WELL AS THE GOD-MAN and (2) GOD IS ONE, BUT HAS ETERNALLY EXISTED AS THREE DIVINE PERSONS (the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost). This is simply a matter of believing, not analyzing God.

Deism is a departure from Bible Truth.
It is belief in the existence of a supreme being, specifically of a creator who does not intervene in the universe. The term is used chiefly of an intellectual movement of the 17th and 18th centuries that accepted the existence of a creator on the basis of reason but rejected belief in a supernatural deity who interacts with humankind. The Cross of Christ completely refutes Deism.

Good point on belief not analyzing. One of my biggest problems is I tend to overthink things.

That's why I like discussion about things. I know one of my faults is overthinking things or focusing on only a few things to much. And missing the obvious in front of you.

Can't see the forest for the trees is a good saying for me haha

 

[Job8]

Thanks @Job8

You are more than welcome. Feel free to pm me any time. Lord bless.

 

[Calvin N]

My dear friend. I applaud your honesty and I hope you will see the truth. Everybody will go through some sort of struggle with their faith.

Faith is a very personal thing. You need to develop it yourself. Some are "blessed" to have it as faith is simply believing in something without bothering to look for concrete evidence.

There are thousands of resources that can help to establish why Jesus is who he said he was. And he was the son of God who was actually God who took human form to die for our sins and provide a means for mankind to reconcile with God.

I encourage you to actively seek these resources out. I can help you personally in this endeavor if you wish.
Remember one thing. If you had put your faith in Jesus at any point in your life. No other power including Satan can snatch you away from his hands.

So I pray to God in Jesus's name that you will soon be able to get all you doubts and questions resolved and come to absolute faith in Christ.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is a verse that says that 'the glory of God is shown in creation'. I think that this is very true for me. I just don't see rolling the dice as evolution says and getting so many things right as happening by chance. Intelligent design, IMHO is the only way!

 

[ToBeLoved]

There is a verse that says that 'the glory of God is shown in creation'. I think that this is very true for me. I just don't see rolling the dice as evolution says and getting so many things right as happening by chance. Intelligent design, IMHO is the only way!

Evolution is based on what humans think and see that science has explained. It is a theory that is based on finding answers to questions that are scientific and those who believe in evolution think they have found it, but many, many holes in that theory.

What is truly sad is that this generation has been taught this theory in school as being correct, so this generation has many more conflicting issues to deal with.

 

[Calvin N]

Very true. In fact a lot of mainstream scientists have been slowly opening up to the idea of Intelligent design. Of course they don't want to ascribe it to "GOD" but some other higher power such as an advanced extra terrestrial organization.

A bunch of fringe pseudo scientists say that ancient aliens had a hand in our creation which seems more plausible than the "oh we happened to come into being by pure chance" argument.

In fact, we can clearly see the hand of Satan in the propagation of evolution. That "theory" has so many holes and contradictions. Of course there is micro evolution...All of us evolve in a little way but to say we came from chimps over the period of millions of years is not even scientifically accurate.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I would argue that the orthodox concepts of Trinity and Incarnation are actually a protection of Jesus’ full humanity and the unity of God.

Christians from the beginning experienced Jesus as showing them God himself. There were debates in the early church with a group (Arians) who saw him not as God but as divine, i.e. as a separate eternal entity that was a lot like God but inferior. But the mainstream Church insisted that there’s only one God, so Jesus shows us him.

There was another view that saw Jesus as a kind of optical illusion, a way that God became visible, but not a real human. That was also rejected. The dominant view was that God appeared through a full human life, with a separate human will, taking real human actions.

So the final standard, Chalcedon, said that in the Incarnation we have two things, God and a human, and those can’t be confused. But they also can’t be separated, because this human isn’t just a guy that God decided to use, but was created specifically as God’s human vehicle.

The technical terminology that was used looks weird in modern terms, but I think you need to look at what they were trying to do. And they were trying to protect Jesus’ full humanity, but also the Christian experience that in Jesus they experience God himself.

Now the Trinity. Scripture (and Christian experience) shows us God in different ways. As the creator God, as the Holy Spirit, and as a Son. At first you might think that we’d just say “well, those are just ways we see God; he’s just one thing.” Why didn’t that happen?

There are some bad reasons, but I think the good reason is again that Christians experience Jesus as God’s own presence. But if God can show himself as a human, who furthermore dies, this says something about God. The Muslim God can’t experience death, and he can’t experience Jesus’ obedient love of his Father. But if Jesus really shows us God, then the Christian God does. So the God Jesus shows us is a God who has within his own experience the obedient love of the Son as well as the love of the Father. If God doesn’t have it, Jesus can’t show it.

This results in a bit of complexity in our idea of God, but it’s inherent in the basic Christian witness that in Jesus we see God. It says that Father, Son and Holy Spirit aren’t just different ways we see God, but that God is able to experience personal relationship *in himself,* before humans are even around. I have some issues with the traditional terminology used for this (though mostly these issues aren’t present in the Nicene Creed, which is CF’s official statement). But the basic intuition is that there’s some kind of personal relationship inherent in God, and therefore that he has more than one personal role in his experience. (Note that I’m using role to refer to something inherent in him. Otherwise the term looks like something called modalism, which says that the three persons aren’t inherent in God, but are just different ways he appears to us.)

I hope that is all clear. But the summary is that I think the Trinity and Incarnation are inevitable results of the Christian perception that in Jesus they meet God himself, but that we have to take seriously the fact that he’s really human.

I’m very wary of the common insistence that Jesus is “divine.” In pagan religions there were various people and even things that are divine. But in Christianity there’s only one God. I always worry that calling Jesus divine sounds like one of the pagan divine men. That we’re saying that Jesus was really superhuman. No, Jesus was not superhuman. Rather he was a normal, mortal human life that was God’s way of being present within human history.

You must not believe the Bible then, because it is very clear that Jesus is divine.

Also, I don't see why you present all these different confusing scenarios to a person who is asking a question? I don't mean to be rude, but why not just say what you believe instead of taking a walk through all kinds of odd doctrine to add more confusion? I don't see how it helps someone sort something out that they are questioning. I've been a Chrsistian for 40 years and it confuses me when this is done and I'm pretty savvy about other people's beliefs.

I just don't see how it helps at all.