Strong delusion

[zeke37]

lol ... now i see this ... absolutely ... i couldn't agree more ... the pre-trib rapture being the real danger

spot on ... ezekiel 13 is a thread i hope to get to ... spent much time in exekiel 44, but never actually compared it ... will do ...

interesting take on other doctrines ... could well include them ... i tend to lean to things like doctrines that allow for 'communicating with the dead' ... and then bring past lives into it and such ... the whole of that being just against Truth ... as in, we're not to try to communicate ... and we have one life ... past, present, and hopefully future ... but yeah, those would fit in with what i believe to be true ...

in Ez44, we have 2 distinct groups, the levites and the sons of zadok
sons of zadok are levites too btw.

the levites go astray and teach others to do the same
but the sons of zadok are faithful, and become the ones who reign and rule

 

[Friar Tuck]

Does anyone have any ideas as to what this strong delusion will be?

Preterism....blinds them.

 

[ancientsoul]

in Ez44, we have 2 distinct groups, the levites and the sons of zadok
sons of zadok are levites too btw.

the levites go astray and teach others to do the same
but the sons of zadok are faithful, and become the ones who reign and rule

okay ... got it ... ty ... i guess i didn't put the teaching of others that cause to go astray as directly related to the levites ... will have to examine that ... i did know the sons of Zadok are faithful ... i believe, if i remember right, they are the elect?

 

[Bible2]

food4thought said in post 27:

I fail to see how the man of sin could "sit in the temple" if the temple of God here referred to is us... I agree that we Christians are individually and communally a temple of God, but also think that the context of many other OT and NT prophecies indicate that there will be a Jewish temple built either prior to or during this time period.

Good point.

While the church as a whole is a figurative temple building (Ephesians 2:21), it isn't the only temple of God. For it coexists with the literal temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and with the temple of Jesus' individual human body (John 2:21), and with the temple of every Christian's individual human body (1 Corinthians 6:19). And if the church-as-a-whole temple can currently coexist with all these other temples of God, it will be able to coexist with the future, 3rd-earthly-literal temple building which Revelation 11:1-2, Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31,36, and 2 Thessalonians 2:4 show will exist in Jerusalem during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. This 3rd temple building will be accepted by God as a valid temple, just as the 2nd temple building was accepted by God as a valid temple, even at the time of Jesus' first coming (Matthew 23:21) and even at the time of the early church (Luke 24:53, Acts 2:46, Acts 22:17).

For the ultra-Orthodox Jews will build the 3rd temple, and they will offer animal sacrifices in front of it, under the auspices of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, which remains holy before God (Romans 7:12). That's why God still keeps an ark of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in his temple building in heaven (Revelation 11:19), and why it was possible for the apostle Paul one time to involve himself with the 2nd temple's Old Covenant Mosaic law practices without him committing sin (Acts 21:20-26; 1 Corinthians 9:20). This isn't to say that the Jesus-denying motives of the ultra-Orthodox Jews will be holy before God, but that the Old-Covenant-Mosaic-law 3rd temple in itself and its animal sacrifices in themselves will be holy before God because the Old Covenant Mosaic law in itself remains holy before God (Romans 7:12), even though its letter is no longer meant to be practiced by people (Romans 7:6) because the New Covenant has been inaugurated by Jesus and his once-for-all-time sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Hebrews 10:1-23, Matthew 26:28).

~

One reason that the 3rd Jewish temple hasn't been built yet is the Israeli government is protecting the Muslim Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (the 3rd-holiest buildings in Islam, right after those in Mecca and Medina), knowing that if the ultra-Orthodox Jews were to destroy these buildings in order to clear the Temple Mount for a 3rd Jewish temple, this could mean the end of the state of Israel. For enraged Muslim armies and militias could attack Israel en masse in an all-out jihad and defeat it completely. While the ultra-Orthodox Jews are no doubt aware of this danger, they believe that the 3rd temple must nonetheless be built exactly where the prior temples stood: right over the Rock of Sacrifice (the Rock of the Dome of the Rock) on which Abraham almost sacrificed Isaac. And the ultra-Orthodox Jews could be brought to the point where they will even desire to see the end of the current, secular state of Israel, believing that only in its demise will God make it possible for them to establish a new, perfectly ultra-Orthodox, theocratic state of Israel.

Something that could bring the ultra-Orthodox Jews to this point would be them getting squeezed out of their settlements in Samaria and Judaea (also called the West Bank), and in East Jerusalem, as part of a peace deal handing these areas over to a Palestinian state. For the ultra-Orthodox Jews (rightly) see Samaria, Judaea, and Jerusalem as the historically most important and holy parts of the land promised by God to Israel since the time of Abraham (Exodus 32:13). So when they start to get squeezed out of these areas, in a rage they could suddenly mass in their tens of thousands, armed with machine guns (which they're allowed to have for self-defense against the Palestinians). And led by 3 huge bulldozers, they could march as a great army to the Old City of Jerusalem, and go up onto the Temple Mount and destroy the Dome of the Rock and the Al Aqsa Mosque (or simply clear way their rubble, if they've already been destroyed by great earthquakes by that time).

Besides getting squeezed out of their settlements, something else that could tip the scales toward this happening would be the rising up of a false, miracle-working, ultra-Orthodox Jewish "Messiah" (cf. Matthew 24:24), who could tell the ultra-Orthodox Jews something like:

"God says that now is the time for us to take back religious control of the Holy Temple Mount, and rid it of all the detestable shrines which the Muslims have placed upon it. We are to sanctify it in the name of our God, so that we might rebuild His Holy Temple there. Listen, my brethren, fear not the Muslims' reaction when we retake religious control of the Holy Temple Mount. For God Himself is with us. He will protect us perfectly. Have I not shown you His mighty Power working through Me? Fear not any men, but fear only our Mighty God, who now commands us to rebuild His Holy Temple at the place He determined from the time of our Father Abraham. Our God gave us back the Holy Temple Mount way back in 1967 C.E. But what have we done with it over all the time since then? Nothing! How can this be? How can we have allowed some merely-secular, so-called 'Israeli' government invented by sinful men to keep us, God's holy people, from even setting foot back on the Temple Mount? Let us rise up, my brethren! Let us all rise up, in the name of our God, and let us do mighty exploits to the Glory of His Holy Name!"

Something else that could help tip the scales regarding the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Israel becoming violent is their finding out the location of the Ark of the Covenant, which could be buried under an ancient ruined fort in the desert east of Jerusalem. The Copper Scroll could contain the clues as to where the Ark is buried in the fort (e.g. "under the third step"). The Ark could have been located there already with ground-penetrating radar by some non-religious treasure hunters, but the Israeli government could be holding up a digging permit to retrieve the Ark because the government is afraid that the ultra-Orthodox Jews could see the discovery of the Ark as (in their words) "an unmistakable sign from God that now is the time for us to rebuild His Holy Temple". So the Israeli government has a motive to keep the location of the buried Ark top secret.

food4thought said in post 27:

Paul did indeed speak about this topic before to the Thessalonians, but he is explicitly referring here to something he had told them while he was still with them IN PERSON.

That's right.

When Paul says, regarding the restrainer of the Antichrist, "now ye know what withholdeth" (2 Thessalonians 2:6), he was addressing the first century AD Thessalonians to whom he had previously explained everything in person (2 Thessalonians 2:5).

 

[Bible2]

food4thought said in post 31:

God has not appointed His church to wrath . . .

Amen.

But note that 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers to only that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is God's wrath (John 3:36). Even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they're killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b).

Note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he's going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing the tribulation's seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), whereas the day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their ways to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of weird locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10) led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast) and all the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

food4thought said in post 31:

God has not appointed His church to wrath, and the gates of hades will not prevail against it...

That's right.

But note that Matthew 16:18 isn't contradicting the fact that evil forces can prevail against the church physically, for they will during the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For the Antichrist will prevail physically against believers in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Matthew 16:18 meant that the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against the "rock" in Matthew 16:18, which is Jesus (Matthew 16:16b,18b), the rock/stone on whom the church/New Covenant Israel is built (Ephesians 2:20, Matthew 16:18b; 1 Peter 2:6), the rock/stone who was rejected and crucified (Romans 9:33, Acts 4:11; 1 Peter 2:4,8), the same rock/Christ who followed Old Covenant Israel/the church in the wilderness (1 Corinthians 10:4-5, cf. Acts 7:38), and the same rock/Christ revered by New Covenant Israel/the church (1 Peter 2:4-10).

Matthew 16:18 was prophesying of when the literal gates of Hades wouldn't prevail against Jesus (Psalms 107:16) when he liberated the souls of the dead Old Testament saints from Hades (1 Peter 4:6; 1 Peter 3:18c-19, Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

All the obedient believers who died during Old Testament times are now part of the church in heaven (Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24), for now there are no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). And 1 Peter 4:6, 1 Peter 3:18c-19, and Ephesians 4:9 show that there was a post-resurrection descent of Jesus into Hades to preach the fulfillment of the gospel (of 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) to the souls of the dead in Hades, after which preaching, Jesus ascended into heaven with all the souls of those in Hades who had died in faith (Ephesians 4:8-9, Hebrews 11:13-16, Hebrews 12:22-24).

And 1 Thessalonians 3:13 and 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show that at Jesus' 2nd coming, the souls of all obedient dead believers of all times will be brought down from the 3rd heaven with Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:14-15), and their souls will descend to the earth and their bodies will resurrect/rise from their graves (1 Thessalonians 4:16). Then they and all believers who will survive the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 on the earth (those who will still be "alive and remain") will be raptured up high into the air above the places all around the globe where they will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17a), and then they will be gathered together from the sky (the first heaven) all around the globe (Matthew 24:31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1) to the one place in the sky where the returned Jesus will be (1 Thessalonians 4:17b), which will be right above Jerusalem, before he sets his feet on the Mount of Olives (Zechariah 14:4-5, Acts 1:11-12).

It's because of this 2nd-coming rapture into the sky, and then the gathering to where in the sky Jesus will be (and then the marriage of the obedient part of the church there to Jesus: Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), that the obedient part of the church will already be with Jesus when he subsequently descends from the sky (the first heaven) to the earth (Revelation 19:14, Revelation 17:14, Zechariah 14:5c,4).

food4thought said in post 31:

The church is mentioned many times in Rev 1-3, but not once between Rev 4-18, and then mentioned again several times in Rev 19-22.

No significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3, but not mentioned again until Revelation 22, just as no significance should be read into the fact that the specific word "church" is mentioned many times in Romans 16, but not mentioned in Romans chapters 1 to 15. The reason that the word "church" is mentioned many times in Revelation chapters 1-3 is because those chapters refer to 7 literal, first century AD, local church congregations in 7 cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Revelation 1:11).

The church, in the general sense, will definitely be in the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For believers will definitely be in it (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), and there are now no believers outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6). Also, just as the mistaken, pre-tribulation rapture view admits that Revelation chapters 19 to 22 include references to the church without using the specific word "church", so it should admit that Revelation chapters 6 to 18 can include references to the church without using the specific word "church".

 

[Bible2]

zeke37 said in post 34:

pre trib rapture is the real danger

While it may not be the ultimate danger, the mistaken idea of a pre-tribulation rapture is still dangerous because when no pre-tribulation rapture occurs, and pre-trib believers begin to suffer in the tribulation, they could think that God has somehow been defeated by Satan, that Satan by his power has caused a pre-trib rapture not to happen despite God wanting one to. Or they could think that God has cruelly broken his (supposed) promise, that he has pulled the rug out from under them, that he cruelly lied to them and must now be laughing at their surprise and suffering (Proverbs 1:26), so that in their rage they could curse God and commit apostasy during the tribulation (Isaiah 8:21-22, Matthew 24:9-13, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12).

And even if they instead rightly think, "Okay, we must have just been mistaken in thinking that the rapture was supposed to be pre-trib. Satan hasn't defeated God, and God didn't lie to us", nonetheless, because they'd held so strongly to the pre-trib idea for so long, their minds could be completely unprepared to face the long tribulation that lies ahead of them (just as holding too strongly to the mistaken idea of preterism, or historicism, or symbolicism, or spiritualism, could leave some believers less prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation). The Bible gives those in the church clear warning ahead of time about everything that they're going to have to face during the future tribulation (Mark 13:23, Revelation chapters 6 to 18, Revelation 1:1, Revelation 22:16), so that they can be better prepared mentally not to be blindsided (1 Peter 4:12-13) or deceived by anything that's coming (Matthew 24:4-5,23-25, Revelation 13:13-18, Revelation 19:20), and so that they can be better prepared mentally to endure the future tribulation with patience and faith to the end (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6), that is, until death or until Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8).

*******

zeke37 said in post 37:

and we don't go to heaven at the rapture, we are simply gathered to Christ where ever He is...

By "heaven" do you mean the 3rd heaven (2 Corinthians 12:2b)? If so, that's right. For no scripture requires that believers will be raptured any higher than the clouds of the sky (the first heaven), to hold a meeting in the air with Jesus at his 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17). After that meeting, in which the church will be judged by Jesus (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) and the obedient part of the church will be married to Jesus (Revelation 19:7, Matthew 25:1-13), the obedient part of the church will come back down from the sky (the first heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:15-21) and will reign on the earth with him for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). Then, after the 1,000 years and subsequent events are over (Revelation 20:7-15, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), the obedient part of the church will live on the new earth with God the Father and Jesus in the literal city of New Jerusalem (Revelation chapters 21-22).

 

[Bible2]

Friar Tuck said in post 43:

Preterism....blinds them.

Preterism (whether full or partial), as well as historicism (in its various modern forms), and pre-tribulation rapturism, and symbolicism, and spiritualism, could all have originated from the same spirit of fear: that the church alive today throughout the world would otherwise have to physically suffer through the future, almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24. For these 5 views of preterism, historicism, pre-tribulation rapturism, and symbolicism, and spiritualism, in their different ways, each gives a mistaken assurance to the church alive today that it won't have to physically suffer through that tribulation.

Preterism says that the tribulation happened in 70 AD. Historicism says that it happened over a long period in history (e.g. during the rise and height of the RCC's power in Europe during the Middle Ages and after, or during the rise and spread of Islam in the Middle East and elsewhere during the Middle Ages and after). Pre-tribulation rapturism says that Jesus will return and rapture the church into the 3rd heaven before the tribulation begins. Symbolicism says that the tribulation is only symbolic of theological themes which those in the church have always had to struggle with (e.g. Matthew 6:24), or is symbolic of only-local physical persecutions which some in the church have always had to face, and are still facing today in some places. And spiritualism says that the tribulation is only spiritual events, which go on only within the hearts of individuals.

But when the almost-entirely literal, worldwide tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 begins in our future, the shaky doctrinal wall which (in their different ways) these 5 views have each tried to build up between the church and the tribulation, will be completely shattered (Ezekiel 13:10-12) as the church worldwide begins to physically suffer through the tribulation (Matthew 24:9-31, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). These 5 views may have left some in the church unprepared mentally to undergo this physical suffering, to where these 5 views could even contribute to some in the church ultimately losing their salvation because of committing apostasy (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12) during the tribulation, when they become "offended" that God is making them and their little ones physically suffer through it (Matthew 24:9-12, Matthew 13:21, Isaiah 8:21-22, Luke 8:13).

Even though the church today throughout the world will have to physically suffer through the tribulation, the church need not fear this (cf. 1 Peter 4:12-13, Revelation 2:10). For even though many in the church will suffer and die during that time (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), this will be to their gain, as it will bring their souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8; see also 2 Corinthians 4:17-18; 2 Timothy 2:12), and it won't rob them of the blessed hope (Titus 2:13) of obtaining eternal life (Titus 1:2, Titus 3:7) in an immortal, physical resurrection body (Romans 8:23-25, Philippians 3:21, Luke 24:39) at Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6), which will occur immediately after the tribulation (Matthew 24:29-31, 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

 

[food4thought]

Ok food,

What is your understanding of Satan's impregnating a woman and producing a counterfeit virgin birth? Is this something you consider to be the strong delusion?
Thanks

This is possible... I lean strongly toward the angel view of Genesis 6, so it wouldn't surprise me if Satan could somehow impregnate a willing virgin (though obviously not by sexual means). Somehow, I don't think this will be a big deal to anyone these days, and probably won't be a major part of the delusion, because with artificial insemination any virgin who wants to do it is capable of reproducing a "virgin birth". And the passage regarding the virgin birth in Isaiah is not obviously referring to the Messiah anyways.

 

[intojoy]

This is possible... I lean strongly toward the angel view of Genesis 6, so it wouldn't surprise me if Satan could somehow impregnate a willing virgin (though obviously not by sexual means). Somehow, I don't think this will be a big deal to anyone these days, and probably won't be a major part of the delusion, because with artificial insemination any virgin who wants to do it is capable of reproducing a "virgin birth". And the passage regarding the virgin birth in Isaiah is not obviously referring to the Messiah anyways.

and I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel.
This verse not only contains the first prophecy of the coming of the Messiah, at the same time, it gives the first prophecy of the Antichrist. It should be noted that this verse speaks of enmity in two aspects. First, there is going to be enmity between Satan and the woman. This satanic enmity with the woman can be seen to play itself out in the account of Genesis 6, where Satan had some of his demons intermarry with human women for the purpose of perverting womankind in an attempt to nullify the first messianic prophecy. This attempt was stopped by means of the worldwide flood.

Secondly, there is going to be enmity between the woman's Seed and Satan's seed. The woman's Seed is Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah. As God, He was eternally existent; as a Man, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. So He was truly both God and Man. The very mention of a seed of a woman goes contrary to the biblical norm, for nationality was always reckoned after the seed of the man. This is why, in all the genealogies of Scripture, only male names are given, with some very rare exceptions. The reason the Messiah must be reckoned after the Seed of the woman is explained in Isaiah 7:14, which states that the Messiah will be born of a virgin. Since the Messiah will not have a human father, His national origin will have to be reckoned after the woman, because His humanity comes only from her. So the very expression her seed implied a miraculous conception. Because this term is used in reference to Satan's seed in the same verse, it implies the same thing: a supernatural and miraculous conception. If the Seed of the woman is the Messiah, the seed of Satan can only be the Antichrist. From this passage, then, it can be deduced that Satan will counterfeit the Virgin Conception and will some day impregnate a woman of Roman descent who will give birth to Satan's seed, the Antichrist. The woman herself may not be a virgin, but the conception of the Antichrist will be through the supernatural power of Satan. By this means, the Antichrist will have a supernatural origin.
http://www.ariel.org/mbsnit.htm

 

[Bro in Christ]

key verse in context is 2 thes 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

these are people who had heard the gospel before the rapture ... 1 cor 15:3-4 and denied him[JC] credit ... matt 7:13-15,21-23 , acts 4:10-12

Who is the truth? John 1:14

Why does one love? Because he loved us we love back! 1 jn 4:19

 

[bibletruth469]

2 thes2:10-12..." they received not the love of the truth that they might be saved. And for this, God shall send a strong delusion that they should believe a lie"...I believe that God sends a strong delusion to an unbelieving world after the rapture of the church takes place. Rom 1:21 states that although they claimed to be wise, they became a fool. Rom 1:28 states that God gave them over to a depraved mind.

As it states in 2 thes 10.. " they received not the love if the truth that they might be saved." God gives everyone the opportunity of having the free gift of salvation for anyone who accepts it. Eph 2:8-9, however many will reject the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. God doesn't want people to reject the truth. 2 pet 3:9 states... " God doesn't want anyone to perish but come to repentance ".

With all this said, I believe that the strong delusion that God sends is the message that comes with believing in the antichrist and all his lying signs and wonders, instead of the saving gospel of Jesus Christ. This will occur in my opinion, after the rapture when the antichrist is revealed . Many will marvel after the beast and will think he's the savior of the world and will make everything better; however are they in for a big surprise . They will believe a lie ( false gospel) that the antichrist presents instead of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[zeke37]

okay ... got it ... ty ... i guess i didn't put the teaching of others that cause to go astray as directly related to the levites ... will have to examine that ...

Levites do not refer to Judah/Jews

i did know the sons of Zadok are faithful ... i believe, if i remember right, they are the elect?[/quote]that's exactly the way I see it

 

[intojoy]

The identity of the Antichrist will be revealed on two occasions. The first revelation will occur before the Tribulation and will be for believers. But the second revelation will occur in the middle of the Tribulation and this revelation will be to the nation of Israel that has been deceived by him until this revelation.

The key passage that speaks of this first revelation is II Thessalonians 2:1-3: Now we beseech you, brethren, touching the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto him; to the end that ye be not quickly shaken from your mind, nor yet be troubled, either by spirit, or by word, or by epistle as from us, as that the day of the Lord is just at hand; let no man beguile you in any wise: for it will not be, except the falling away come first, and the man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition. In verses 1-2, some false teachers apparently came in after Paul left Thessalonica teaching a posttribulational doctrine and stating that the believers were already in the Tribulation. The Thessalonians were troubled that the day of the Lord, the most common title for the Great Tribulation, had already arrived.

In verse 3, Paul writes that the Tribulation could not have come yet because two events must precede the Tribulation itself: first, the apostasy of the Church; and secondly, the revelation of the man of sin ..., the son of perdition. There is to be a revelation of the identity of the Antichrist that precedes the Tribulation, and it is for the believers living at that time.

This text does not state exactly how this revelation will come, but other Scriptures indicate that this revelation may come because of two things. First, it is clear from Daniel 9:27 that the Tribulation begins with the signing of the Seven-Year Covenant between Israel and the Antichrist. When this forthcoming covenant is announced, believers may become aware of the identity of the Antichrist. Secondly, it is also possible that believers will deduce who he is by the numerical value of the Antichrist's name, 666.

The second revelation is to Israel and is found later in the II Thessalonians passage in the context of the Abomination of Desolation.

http://www.ariel.org/mbsnit.htm

 

[intojoy]

The woman's Seed is Yeshua (Jesus) the Messiah. As God, He was eternally existent; as a Man, He was conceived by the Holy Spirit and born of a virgin. So He was truly both God and Man. The very mention of a seed of a woman goes contrary to the biblical norm, for nationality was always reckoned after the seed of the man. This is why, in all the genealogies of Scripture, only male names are given, with some very rare exceptions. The reason the Messiah must be reckoned after the Seed of the woman is explained in Isaiah 7:14, which states that the Messiah will be born of a virgin. Since the Messiah will not have a human father, His national origin will have to be reckoned after the woman, because His humanity comes only from her. So the very expression her seed implied a miraculous conception. Because this term is used in reference to Satan's seed in the same verse, it implies the same thing: a supernatural and miraculous conception. If the Seed of the woman is the Messiah, the seed of Satan can only be the Antichrist. From this passage, then, it can be deduced that Satan will counterfeit the Virgin Conception and will some day impregnate a woman of Roman descent who will give birth to Satan's seed, the Antichrist. The woman herself may not be a virgin, but the conception of the Antichrist will be through the supernatural power of Satan. By this means, the Antichrist will have a supernatural origin.

http://www.ariel.org/mbsnit.htm

 

[intojoy]

Ultimately , the counterfeit son will accept the offer that the True Son rejected (Mat. 4:8-10; Lk. 4:5-8). When Satan offered Yeshua all the kingdoms of the world on the condition that He would worship him just once, Jesus quoted from the Book of Deuteronomy and stated that the only Person to be worshiped is God Himself. When this offer is accepted by the Antichrist, it will mark the beginning of his rise to political and religious domination of the world (Dan. 11:38-39; Rom. 13:2).

The rise to power of the Antichrist is described in two passages. The first passage is found in Daniel 8:23-25: And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up. And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power; and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper and do his pleasure; and he shall destroy the mighty ones and the holy people. And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
Because of his supernatural origin as Satan's seed, the Antichrist will always have access to the satanic realm. Verse 23 declares that a king of fierce countenance, the Antichrist, will have the understanding of dark sentences. This means that he will have the same supernatural ability to solve riddles that Daniel had in Daniel 5:12. Daniel's source was God, but the source for the Antichrist will be Satan. The Antichrist will have the power of the occult behind him. This is further spelled out in verse 24, where it is clearly stated that his power will be mighty, but it will not be by his own power. In other words, the Antichrist will have access to a tremendous amount of power. However, this power originates from his father, Satan. He will seek to destroy the holy people Israel with this supernatural power. In verse 25, he is characterized by craftiness and deceit. By these means, he will lull rulers into a sense of false security and take advantage of it for the purpose of uprooting them. For a time, he will prosper, that is he will be successful in his goals. He will magnify himself in his heart and this will lead to his self declaration of deity (II Thes. 2:3-4; Rev. 13:3 -9). He will stand up against the prince of princes, the Messiah.

A second description of the means of his rise to power is in Daniel 11:36-39: And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvelous things against the God of gods; and he shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished; for that which is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the gods of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god; for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his place shall he honor the god of fortresses; and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honor with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. And he shall deal with the strongest fortresses by the help of a foreign god: whosoever acknowledges him he will increase with glory; and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for a price. In verse 36a, Daniel describes the Antichrist as being a willful king. In verse 36b, he is characterized by self exaltation above all men and self deification by magnifying himself above even God. In his self exaltation, he will speak against the God of gods (Dan. 7:25). In verse 37, he will not desire the love of women, something that is natural to men, and so he will be inhuman in his disregard of women. The enmity of Satan against womanhood continues through Satan's seed. Furthermore, in verses 38-39, he will be under the total control of Satan. This passage states that he will honor a god that his ancestors on his mother's side never honored: the god of fortresses, Satan. His policy will be: Might makes right. With the help of this foreign god, he will be able to take over the strongest defenses in the world and will appear totally invincible. Those who submit to his authority will be increased and will be given positions of authority in his kingdom. He will divide the territory he has conquered among those who have been loyal to him and have confessed him to be god.

The above two passages deal primarily with the rising power of the Antichrist on the basis of his contact with the satanic realm. By totally submitting himself to Satan, he is honored with conquests. In his rise to power, Satan will gain absolute political and religious control.

Arnold Fruchtenbaum

Arnold has much more to say concerning the rise and fall of the antichrist. The best prophecy book ever written IMO - Footsteps of the Messiah

http://www.ariel.org/mbsnit.htm

 

[Douggg]

This text does not state exactly how this revelation will come, but other Scriptures indicate that this revelation may come because of two things. First, it is clear from Daniel 9:27 that the Tribulation begins with the signing of the Seven-Year Covenant between Israel and the Antichrist. When this forthcoming covenant is announced, believers may become aware of the identity of the Antichrist. Secondly, it is also possible that believers will deduce who he is by the numerical value of the Antichrist's name, 666.

Which comes first? (1) the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9 (2) the little horn emerging among ten kings of their empire in Daniel 7.


Doug

There is no Salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus.

 

[Douggg]

Levites do not refer to Judah/Jews

i did know the sons of Zadok are faithful ... i believe, if i remember right, they are the elect?

that's exactly the way I see it[/quote]

The confirmation of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9 will be the commemorative reading of Moses instructions to the second generation to
go in and possess the land. Deuteronomy 31:1-11. It confirms the Mt. Sinai covenant on a 7 year basis.

It must be read on the feast of tabernacles and it must be read from the place of God's choosing. Which the Jews take to be the Temple Mount.

And it must be read from the priest tribe. Which imo will be read by the false prophet, a religious figure, second beast of Revelation 13. The proceedings overseen by the Prince who shall come the (false) king messiah of Israel, the Antichrist.

Doug

There is no Salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus.

 

[intojoy]

Which comes first? (1) the confirmation of the covenant for 7 years in Daniel 9 (2) the little horn emerging among ten kings of their empire in Daniel 7.

Doug

There is no Salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus.

The signing of a peace treaty is going to be with a politically powerful man because the Jews aren't going to make a deal with a nobody. My guess is the eleventh horn (the beast from John I forgot to parallel), comes into power before the signing of the covenant which will mark the start of the Trib

 

[Douggg]

The signing of a peace treaty is going to be with a politically powerful man because the Jews aren't going to make a deal with a nobody. My guess is the eleventh horn (the beast from John I forgot to parallel), comes into power before the signing of the covenant which will mark the start of the Trib

Okay, so the little horn emerges among the ten kings (leaders) of their kingdom first (before the confirmation of the covenant to start the seven years). So given that, which comes first?

(1) the little horn making his emergence.
(2) the coming together of the ten kings kingdom with the ten king (leader) ruling it.


Doug

There is no Salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus.

 

[intojoy]

Okay, so the little horn emerges among the ten kings (leaders) of their kingdom first (before the confirmation of the covenant to start the seven years). So given that, which comes first?

(1) the little horn making his emergence.
(2) the coming together of the ten kings kingdom with the ten king (leader) ruling it.

Doug

There is no Salvation apart from the shed blood of Jesus.

The results of the destruction of Magog will lead to a one world government which will form into ten divisions. The antichrist rises after this and takes control by killing 3 of the ten, the other 7 join him.