Striking Out Paul

cweb255 · Nov 18, 2004

What does Paul really do for individual Christians? I mean, I can see his purpose in the early church, but his obvious lack of information on Jesus discredits our entire religion. People ask "Are you Christian, or are you Paulian?" I firmly stand by the words of the Jesus, not the words of some man who dreamt he met the saviour.

apenman · Nov 18, 2004

I don't understand why people have such a problem with Paul??

seebs · Nov 18, 2004

Paul is one of the major sources of nasty prooftexts used to preach all sorts of mean stuff. That's unfortunate, because he's also got some of the most important basic teachings that let us understand Christianity.

Arikereba · Nov 18, 2004

Paul might have had a lack of basic information on Jesus--I can't claim to know--but so do we all.

It really annoys me when people act like all Paul ever said was "gay people go to hell" and "women should be quiet in church." Even if he said those things and meant them in those ways... I think people get too down on him.

C.S. Lewis? Subtle, probably subconscious misogynistic streak that I attribute to him not actually knowing that many women. Brilliant anyway. Jefferson? Kept slaves. Brilliant anyway. Nearly any 19th writers (blanking on names)? Some kind of racism, sexism, or imperialism. It doesn't invalidate the good stuff they wrote.

To say that Paul may have written some stuff that was wrong doesn't invalidate all the stuff he wrote that was RIGHT about the strength of God's love for us, the first real attempt at Christian theology that we have recorded...

searchingforanswers1 · Nov 18, 2004

apenman said:
I don't understand why people have such a problem with Paul??

because if paul faked the vision on the road it changes everything.

CaDan · Nov 18, 2004

apenman said:
I don't understand why people have such a problem with Paul??

Because a lot of people haven't read Paul. Take an hour and read Romans. It's well worth the effort. The early church had good reasons for preserving his writings.

CaDan · Nov 18, 2004

searchingforanswers1 said:
because if paul faked the vision on the road it changes everything.

But I see no reason for him to fake it. I'm pretty sure the author of Acts made it more impressive than it was, but Paul describes it himself in Gal. 1.

tulc · Nov 18, 2004

Taken out of context everyone can look bad. If you read all of Pauls writings instead of proof texts (pro or con) you can't really know him or the things he held dear.
tulc(who loves Pauls writings!)

Charlie V · Nov 18, 2004

seebs said:
Paul is one of the major sources of nasty prooftexts used to preach all sorts of mean stuff. That's unfortunate, because he's also got some of the most important basic teachings that let us understand Christianity.

A lot of what is preached is misinterpretations, some of them based on mistranslations of the ancient writings.

I mentioned this on another thread: There's a book called "What Paul Really Said About Women," it's an amazing a nalysis of how Paul's writings were misinterpretted to support the oppression of women, when the actual words in the original Greek were incredibly pro-equal rights for women.

Charlie

searchingforanswers1 · Nov 18, 2004

Charlie V said:
A lot of what is preached is misinterpretations, some of them based on mistranslations of the ancient writings.

I mentioned this on another thread: There's a book called "What Paul Really Said About Women," it's an amazing analysis of how Paul's writings were misinterpretted to support the oppression of women, when the actual words in the original Greek were incredibly pro-equal rights for women.

Charlie

Its so funny. In another thread we skeptics say that hell was mistranslated from a word that ment grave. we are told that we have to trust the translators.
In this thread we say that paul taught women were second class without rights and the bible believers say no it doesnt mean that. It was mistranslated. Cant have it both ways can we?

searchingforanswers1 · Nov 18, 2004

CaDan said:
But I see no reason for him to fake it. I'm pretty sure the author of Acts made it more impressive than it was, but Paul describes it himself in Gal. 1.

The other day i was on a deserted road and jesus came down and talked to me and told me that he really didnt mean hell was a burning pit that unbelievers go forever. I am to go on cf and spread the word.
Do you believe me or would you like a little proof.

Beoga · Nov 19, 2004

cweb255 said:
What does Paul really do for individual Christians? I mean, I can see his purpose in the early church, but his obvious lack of information on Jesus discredits our entire religion. People ask "Are you Christian, or are you Paulian?" I firmly stand by the words of the Jesus, not the words of some man who dreamt he met the saviour.

thankyou for this great piece of writing, you backed up very well. some people just spew out things without backing it up. you did a great job .

artybloke · Nov 19, 2004

People ask "Are you Christian, or are you Paulian?"

Can't recall anyone ever asking me this question.

Mystikiwi · Nov 19, 2004

I Love (much of) Paul's writing, esp...
Rom 12-14
Gal 5
Eph 4-6

Abiel · Nov 19, 2004

cweb255 said:
What does Paul really do for individual Christians?

For this individual christian:

1.He makes me think, often for myself (God forbid!)

2.He gives me hope, when I read of his persistance.

3.He helps me understand that I am ok, and that God has called me to ministry, even though I feel hopelessly underqualified, because he was human too, and said and did daft and sinful stuff.

4.He helps me to understand that Christians always operate in a context, which varies, and must inform their ministry.

5.He gives me loads of really good stuff to base meetings and messages on.

6.He helps me see the 'bigness' of who Christ is, and Christ did/does.

I'm thinking on my feet here- if I put some effort into it, I guess I could come up with more.

Charlie V · Nov 19, 2004

searchingforanswers1 said:
Its so funny. In another thread we skeptics say that hell was mistranslated from a word that ment grave. we are told that we have to trust the translators.
In this thread we say that paul taught women were second class without rights and the bible believers say no it doesnt mean that. It was mistranslated. Cant have it both ways can we?

Um.. Hell was mistranslated, actually from four words, two of which mean the grave or the pit and were metaphoric for death, one of which means "the valley of Hinnom," and one of which refers to a place where fallen angels go until they are judged.

Whoever said "we have to trust the translators," was lying to you.

Which thread are you talking about? Sounds like my kind of conversation.

Oh, and by the way--I didn't just say "no it doesn't mean that." I said, there's a really great book on the subject and I recommend you read it. If you're truly a skeptic, then you thirst for knowledge. I suggest you study up on the Greek words behind the passages, and I highly recommend the book I noted. I'll get the author's name if you're interested.

Don't just take the author's word for it either. Certainly don't take my word for it. Study and learn. Debunk the author's book, if you believe the author is mistaken based on your study of Greek. Read everything you can on this topic, and every other topic of interest.

Charlie

Minowa · Nov 19, 2004

searchingforanswers1 said:
The other day i was on a deserted road and jesus came down and talked to me and told me that he really didnt mean hell was a burning pit that unbelievers go forever. I am to go on cf and spread the word.
Do you believe me or would you like a little proof.

If you were a famous philosopher and rich and living in the ignorant times, I'm sure you would be given some credit.

Tetzel · Nov 19, 2004

Can Paul and Christ be taken apart? Christ of course is fundamental to Christianity, but Paul wrote the bulk of the epistles. The epistles contain huge amounts of the moral teachings and theology of Christianity. Due in part to the fact that the Gospels, while containing some moral teachings, spend a massive amount of time on the story of Christ and the establishment of Christ's legitimacy as the messiah. If we were to remove Paul's writings what would we have left?

wizanda · Nov 19, 2004

We would have truth
Seeing as Paul on numerous occasions blatiently contridicts christ and leads people to a diffrent faith which christ wasn't teaching
If we removed Paul or at least taught that Paul was the goat more people would follow christ truly
Then more would get to heaven as due to Pauls teachings more people worry about points and contridictions then on the real points of love and wisdom

cweb255 · Nov 19, 2004

artybloke said:
Can't recall anyone ever asking me this question.

You don't associate with anti-christians and atheists, do you?

littleapologist said:
thankyou for this great piece of writing, you backed up very well. some people just spew out things without backing it up. you did a great job .

Well, I don't have a bible with me currently, but the next time I do, I'll show you some evidence. I'll be back tomorrow. confused: - I actually appreciate sarcasm.)

searchingforanswers1 said:
Its so funny. In another thread we skeptics say that hell was mistranslated from a word that ment grave. we are told that we have to trust the translators.
In this thread we say that paul taught women were second class without rights and the bible believers say no it doesnt mean that. It was mistranslated. Cant have it both ways can we?

True, there's a lot of hypocrisy in the current form of Christianity. They think its OK to just listen to their pastors and not worry about what the Bible or Jesus actually says or said...

wizanda said:
We would have truth
Seeing as Paul on numerous occasions blatiently contridicts christ and leads people to a diffrent faith which christ wasn't teaching
If we removed Paul or at least taught that Paul was the goat more people would follow christ truly
Then more would get to heaven as due to Pauls teachings more people worry about points and contridictions then on the real points of love and wisdom

We all know the contradiction is there. We must really evaluate the Bible for its truth, critical analysis and textual criticism. What's the point in believing if we all believe lies?

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