Strange Fire Conference

[Andrea411]

Next week will mark the start of John MacArthur's "Strange Fire Conference", where the topic of strange fire found in many charismatic circles will be discussed.

It has been made clear that manifestations such as barking like dogs, uncontrollable laughter, and other newer charismatic practices will be discussed in the conference.

What do others think about the idea of this conference? I for one actually support it. Being Pentecostal can mean so many things, I for one am a very classical Pentecostal. Tounges and all that are great, but I do not in any way support any of these new "manifestations" where people bark like dogs, or whole congregations laugh so hard they literally do not even give a sermon. I like MacArthur's recognition that there are classical Pentecostals that truly love Christ and believe in the Bible, but he asserts the fact that these true Pentecostals need to start to speak out against Charismatics that practice this false worship. I completely agree with this.

Thoughts? Opinions? On the conference or this "strange fire" in general?

I was looking into the history of revivals, and it turns out that most of the time when there is real revival. People are not just sitting on their hands listening to the preacher, but they are loving God and the Holy Spirit and they move too!!! wow - J.M. would have stood firmly against the Welsh Revival as he has in the past stood against all things concerning Charismatics
............
from Charisma magazine
Brown noted
As Daniel Rowlands, the Welsh revivalist, replied to the criticism of John Thornton of England in the early 1760s, “You English blame us, the Welsh, and speak against us and say ‘Jumpers! Jumpers!’ But we, the Welsh, have something also to allege against you, and we most justly say of you, ‘Sleepers! Sleepers!’”
Jonathan Edwards also recognized that “a reformation, after long continued and almost universal deadness, should at first, when the revival is new, be attended with ... imprudences, irregularities, and [a] mixture of delusion”—and he wrote this with reference to the Great Awakening.
A Scottish contemporary of Edwards, John Bonar said, “It is too much for the clay to assume to itself the judgment of how it befits the potter to work. If the careless are brought to repentance,—the profane to holiness,—the unclean to purity;—if the old man with his deeds is put off, and the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, is put on, that is the work of the Spirit of God--the fruit of the truth as it is in Jesus. The manner in which these things may be wrought in us or in others may be designed by God to try even his own people as to whether they will know his hand, amid the imperfection with which every work of God is marred when it passes through the hands of men.”
Today, the Holy Spirit continues to move in wonderful and sometimes unusual ways, overpowering some people with His presence, producing in others a deep conviction of sin that moves them to cry out and groan, producing in still others a glorious and inexpressible joy that moves them to dance and shout, and confirming the Word with signs following—the greatest sign of all being radically changed lives for the glory of God.
Yet rather than recognize this, Pastor MacArthur claims that charismatics have “stolen the Holy Spirit and created a golden calf and they are dancing around the golden calf as if it is the Holy Spirit. ... The Charismatic version of[bless and do not curse] the Holy Spirit is that golden calf ... around which they dance with their dishonoring exercises”—and in this scathing indictment he names fine godly leaders like Mike Bickle and Lou Engle, claiming that they are guilty of blaspheming the Spirit.
........
J.M. saddens me

 

[mourningdove~]

Thoughts? Opinions? On the conference or this "strange fire" in general?

I've seen so much 'strange fire', and persons hurt by it (and the demonic element associated with some of it), that I guess my focus in this goes more towards addressing and potentially exposing the abuses that have hurt and lead so many astray, and that continues to cause damage to persons' lives. That's largely where I'm coming from.

It's not that I'm 'pro JM' or 'pro' anybody. It's just that I'm very much 'anti strange fire', and JM is someone daring to address the issue.

Will he do it right? I don't know. I'm waiting to see.

I personally would have so much more preferred if charismatics or Pentecostals themselves would be holding this conference, but it just hasn't happened that way.

 

[Allectus]

I would be very interested to see it. In my experience, both as a young child and also bringing new believers to the church.. this "strange fire" really scares quite a few people. I was also once witness to a baptism where if the people didn't speak in tongues the baptism wasn't considered valid, which isn't scriptural. Not all pentecostal churches are like this, but enough that I'd like to here what MacArthur has to say on it.

 

[Andrea411]

I would be very interested to see it. In my experience, both as a young child and also bringing new believers to the church.. this "strange fire" really scares quite a few people. I was also once witness to a baptism where if the people didn't speak in tongues the baptism wasn't considered valid, which isn't scriptural. Not all pentecostal churches are like this, but enough that I'd like to here what MacArthur has to say on it.

The only Pentecostal church (except independents) that teaches you must speak in tongues is UP - United Pentecostal i.e.: Oneness Pentecostal.
I went to mainline churches as a child and was never hurt - I grew up an atheist. But I was never hurt ?? I just didn't meet God until I was almost 30.
Thats not to say there are not good churches that are cessationists, I have never been to one but I have friends that love the Lord and know the word and go to non-charismatic churches... most of them are what we call Bapticostal. Baptists who speak in tongues or who are not cessationist.
I would rather risk getting hurt then risk not being moved. I have taken friends to really powerful charismatic meetings and always someone got saved.... ALWAYS. Maybe they'd have gotten saved in a mainline church IDK.
But if its the fear of getting hurt that keeps you from allowing the Holy Spirit to take control of a church - thats like being afraid to get into a relationship bc you might get hurt... GUESS what all relationships hurt sometimes.
God bless, andrea

 

[Allectus]

The only Pentecostal church (except independents) that teaches you must speak in tongues is UP - United Pentecostal i.e.: Oneness Pentecostal.
I went to mainline churches as a child and was never hurt - I grew up an atheist. But I was never hurt ?? I just didn't meet God until I was almost 30.
Thats not to say there are not good churches that are cessationists, I have never been to one but I have friends that love the Lord and know the word and go to non-charismatic churches... most of them are what we call Bapticostal. Baptists who speak in tongues or who are not cessationist.
I would rather risk getting hurt then risk not being moved. I have taken friends to really powerful charismatic meetings and always someone got saved.... ALWAYS. Maybe they'd have gotten saved in a mainline church IDK.
But if its the fear of getting hurt that keeps you from allowing the Holy Spirit to take control of a church - thats like being afraid to get into a relationship bc you might get hurt... GUESS what all relationships hurt sometimes.
God bless, andrea

This church I was speaking of wasn't part of any organization. It was just a single church. I'm not sure what you mean by getting hurt though. I've just seen alot of people scared off. We're trying to get our neighbours to God. Wow do they need God right now. But they saw people losing control up front and won't return. We've switched churches since then.

By being moved, do you mean like an emotional experience? Physical movements? I've had experiences where I'm overwhelmed by God and fall on my face in surrender, but it's alone in my bedroom or somewhere private. I've never had the urge to have emotional or physical outbursts in church. Though I've cried during praise and worship before..

 

[Andrea411]

This church I was speaking of wasn't part of any organization. It was just a single church. I'm not sure what you mean by getting hurt though. I've just seen alot of people scared off. We're trying to get our neighbours to God. Wow do they need God right now. But they saw people losing control up front and won't return. We've switched churches since then.

By being moved, do you mean like an emotional experience? Physical movements? I've had experiences where I'm overwhelmed by God and fall on my face in surrender, but it's alone in my bedroom or somewhere private. I've never had the urge to have emotional or physical outbursts in church. Though I've cried during praise and worship before..

mourningdove mentioned being hurt... unfortunately I have seen this in all churches/denominations and it always saddens me bc it does effect the gospel message especially to new Christians. In my experience 'gossip' has been the most hurtful thing to individuals in church.
I have been amazed, coming from a very uptight atheist family... I thought my lively church would scare people off... but when the opportunity came for these people to go to church. I had to take them to my church... well to my amazement the Holy Spirit was the one in control and not me. I've had 7-8 friends and family get saved at these churches.
.......My mother used to mock 'holy rollers' that was what we were called back in the day. I was as uptight even when in worship - I felt like my arms were weighted and I just could not be demonstrative in worship--- did not like all that lively stuff one bit. ............ and then one night I was at a prayer meeting in a private home and in worship.. I started to cry - I cried for the following 8 years. Every service every prayer meeting... I was so set free in worship it was as if I was a different person. Gone was the self-conscious uptight lady... and today I love to worship with my whole heart, mind and body. I like other churches but I never feel like I'm really loving the Lord and giving Him the Praise and admiration, thankfulness, and awe thats in my heart unless I'm free to worship. I'm still fairly tame compared to some people - don't dance or bark LOL... but I am free. My relationships changed, my focus is on Him, and not on myself. My marriage changed too. People looking on might think its all about the flesh but thats just not true. I have to forget about others and think about Him in order to worship... otherwise I feel fat, ugly, worried my clothes don't look right or every other distraction known to man. Nope ... its not about worshipping the flesh......worship is my offering to the Lord, despite what others might think or say... if I fall on my face its bc the Lord so put me there.... I've been saved 30 years and it hasn't happened often but the last thing I want to worry about is what J.McArthur or his ilk think of my worship.

God bless, and may you know the awesome wonder of His presence, andrea

 

[Alithis]

I was looking into the history of revivals, and it turns out that most of the time when there is real revival. People are not just sitting on their hands listening to the preacher, but they are loving God and the Holy Spirit and they move too!!! wow - J.M. would have stood firmly against the Welsh Revival as he has in the past stood against all things concerning Charismatics
............
from Charisma magazine
Brown noted
As Daniel Rowlands, the Welsh revivalist, replied to the criticism of John Thornton of England in the early 1760s, “You English blame us, the Welsh, and speak against us and say ‘Jumpers! Jumpers!’ But we, the Welsh, have something also to allege against you, and we most justly say of you, ‘Sleepers! Sleepers!’”
Jonathan Edwards also recognized that “a reformation, after long continued and almost universal deadness, should at first, when the revival is new, be attended with ... imprudences, irregularities, and [a] mixture of delusion”—and he wrote this with reference to the Great Awakening.
A Scottish contemporary of Edwards, John Bonar said, “It is too much for the clay to assume to itself the judgment of how it befits the potter to work. If the careless are brought to repentance,—the profane to holiness,—the unclean to purity;—if the old man with his deeds is put off, and the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness, is put on, that is the work of the Spirit of God--the fruit of the truth as it is in Jesus. The manner in which these things may be wrought in us or in others may be designed by God to try even his own people as to whether they will know his hand, amid the imperfection with which every work of God is marred when it passes through the hands of men.”

Today, the Holy Spirit continues to move in wonderful and sometimes unusual ways, overpowering some people with His presence, producing in others a deep conviction of sin that moves them to cry out and groan, producing in still others a glorious and inexpressible joy that moves them to dance and shout, and confirming the Word with signs following—the greatest sign of all being radically changed lives for the glory of God.

Yet rather than recognize this, Pastor MacArthur claims that charismatics have “stolen the Holy Spirit and created a golden calf and they are dancing around the golden calf as if it is the Holy Spirit. ... The Charismatic version of[bless and do not curse] the Holy Spirit is that golden calf ... around which they dance with their dishonoring exercises”—and in this scathing indictment he names fine godly leaders like Mike Bickle and Lou Engle, claiming that they are guilty of blaspheming the Spirit.
........
J.M. saddens me

Iv read many of those revivalists long ago -nice to read an excerpt again .. and yes attacks against what we do not understand in God are not new .
but really i quoted your post because i desire that every one would take the time to carefully read it again and again .
a revival, a spiritual out pouring of the manifest Power of God is always going to draw attack from the enemy through what ever means he can and it is all the more sorrowful when it comes through those that claim to be his .

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Since it's Mac putting it on, that's a EASY decision.

 

[LinkH]

For those that aren't familiar with what's being discussed,
here is an intro video regarding the Strange Fire conference being held this week:

John MacArthur (strange fire) #1 - YouTube

I don't know what will be said, I don't know that I'll agree with all that is said, but I'll be watching and listening so as to know for myself what actually has been said, rather than to merely accept 'hearsay' as fact.

Here is a video of someone refuting the points John MacArthur made in his video.

John MacArthur (strange fire) #1 - YouTube

 

[LinkH]

I've got some teachings prepared that address cessationist teachings head-on, one rather generic, and one more specifically focused on sufficiency of scripture. I also am at a point in my life where it is feasible for me to do a little bit of traveling ministry. I wonder if there is any demand for this kind of teaching Pentecostal or Charismatic churches now that there is a conference actively attacking spiritual gifts. Back when MacArthur published his 1990's book, there were a number of people confused by it, but probably your rank and file average member, but rather the rare person who would read a book like that.

Personally, I think it could be useful for some pastors to go to a conference or have a speaker who would go point by point through cessationist arguments, look at the passages and point out the problems to further equip them to share with those few members of the congregation who read MacArthur's book and can't see the problems with his argument. If there were congregations that were sort of split on gifts, it may be good for them.

 

[LinkH]

I was a little surprised to read where Jonathan Edwards argued for cessationism at the close of the canon based on his interpretation of I Corinthians 13. I thought he'd know better than that. Calvin rejected that interpretation of the passage as ignorant or stupid, depending on the translation.

 

[jiminpa]

I was a little surprised to read where Jonathan Edwards argued for cessationism at the close of the canon based on his interpretation of I Corinthians 13. I thought he'd know better than that. Calvin rejected that interpretation of the passage as ignorant or stupid, depending on the translation.

and how stupid and ignorant does a doctrine have to be to for a calvinist, (albeit the quintessential calvin worshipper, calvin himself), to call it stupid or ignorant.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Will Satan ever warm someone's heart into love for God, agape?
Testifying is an practice from the Psalms and new testament.
If we say the love is not there or not real, it is then that one blasphemes Him.

 

[Petruchio]

The idea of johhnymac running an accountability clinic with regard to the Pentecostal movement is akin to having Todd Bentley speaking on the need for a high level of morality and ethics or having the likes of Benny Hinn talking about ethics in ministry.

I have absolutely no qualms with referring to johhnymac as a purveyor of darkness who has been at the head of those who have endeavoured to keep so many away from the fullness of the Spirit and for that matter the love of God.

PS. If anyone wants to send me a copy of his new book I will be happy to receive it. I will place it at the head of my new out-of-site book shelf which I will refer to as the "Dark Arts" section, along with other cessationist material and populist heretical books.

Strong words, but how does being a cessationist make you a denier of the love of God? And what is so great, for example, about speaking in tongues that a person couldn't live without?

I've spoken in tongues before, or at least that's what a fellow led me to believe. They weren't really tongues, but it didn't stop the other person from interpreting it as such. That same individual, I found out, also used to deny that the Book of Revelation was part of the canon, because, according to him, New Testament prophecy is never judgmental.

I've had people prophecy that I am trying to seduce their wife. I've had people tell me that they have such strong powers of discernment that they can literally read my mind. And so I went, inside my head, 'read this!', like that one episode when Fox Moulder (from the X-Files) runs into the psychic who made the same claim.

When it comes down to it, there isn't a whole lot of credibility within the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement for them to start talking about cessationists as being members of the army of darkness. If they were raising people from the dead on live TV, or speaking in Japanese, or Korean, or Chinese, or Arabic, converting people on an airplane, things would be different. But when they occur everywhere but where it needs to be, there's nothing for us to go on.

Anybody can make claims. Heck, even the Oneness Pentecostals, if you go to one of their websites, will boast about all the miracles and manifestations that occur within their churches. And those same people, who deny the trinity, will tell you that you are NOT a Christian because you were not baptized by a member of their church in the name of Jesus. And they use their gifts as proof for their doctrine.

While I myself am not a cessationist, I've not seen much evidence for any extraordinary presence of gifts among the Charismatics. Give me those old time gifts, such as wisdom, or teaching, or the classical fruits of the spirit. But if babbling with my arms flailing all around is what you want me to do, I think I'll pass on that one.

 

[Biblicist]

Strong words, but how does being a cessationist make you a denier of the love of God?

Even though I would never say that the average rank-and-file cessationist is a “denier of the love of God”, or that they have essentially rejected the faith; as most seem to hold to the cessationist worldview simply because they have not really thought things through and that they have relied on the worldly views of their church leaders. In my view, things can become rather complicated for the long term and aggressive cessationist who continues to make his stand against the Biblical account of the person and ministry of the Holy Spirit, for these people, depending on who they are and with what they have said, then this can certainly place then on very dangerous ground.

Though I will certainly say that cessationism as a worldview is simply another system of unbelief.

And what is so great, for example, about speaking in tongues that a person couldn't live without?

As far as our being able to pray in the Spirit (tongues), this certainly enables us to be more affective in our prayer to the Lord and I guess that each of us will have to weigh up this greater ability.

I've spoken in tongues before, or at least that's what a fellow led me to believe. They weren't really tongues, but it didn't stop the other person from interpreting it as such. That same individual, I found out, also used to deny that the Book of Revelation was part of the canon, because, according to him, New Testament prophecy is never judgmental.

I've had people prophecy that I am trying to seduce their wife. I've had people tell me that they have such strong powers of discernment that they can literally read my mind. And so I went, inside my head, 'read this!', like that one episode when Fox Moulder (from the X-Files) runs into the psychic who made the same claim.

When it comes to shall I say, the more eccentric behaviour that we encounter with some Pentecostals and charismatics, I could very easily add reams and reams of information and examples where I have come across some very odd activity – but this can be said for both Continuists and Cessationists alike.

When it comes down to it, there isn't a whole lot of credibility within the Charismatic/Pentecostal movement for them to start talking about cessationists as being members of the army of darkness. If they were raising people from the dead on live TV, or speaking in Japanese, or Korean, or Chinese, or Arabic, converting people on an airplane, things would be different. But when they occur everywhere but where it needs to be, there's nothing for us to go on.

Anybody can make claims. Heck, even the Oneness Pentecostals, if you go to one of their websites, will boast about all the miracles and manifestations that occur within their churches. And those same people, who deny the trinity, will tell you that you are NOT a Christian because you were not baptized by a member of their church in the name of Jesus. And they use their gifts as proof for their doctrine.
While I myself am not a cessationist, I've not seen much evidence for any extraordinary presence of gifts among the Charismatics. Give me those old time gifts, such as wisdom, or teaching, or the classical fruits of the spirit. But if babbling with my arms flailing all around is what you want me to do, I think I'll pass on that one.

There are certainly some very odd elements with the PCM and some groups do little more than add shame and dishonour to both the PCM and more importantly to the person of the Holy Spirit. But we can use the same argument against the endemic worldliness and wickedness that we see daily that comes from within the cessationist world, this means that we need to ignore the absurd behaviour that we see in both camps and rely on what the Scriptures have to say with regard to the 9 Manifestations of the Spirit (1Co 12:7-11) and the 8 Congregational Offices/functions (1Co 12:28).

 

[Alithis]

never does it cease to amaze me how we go like moths to the flame of negative report .. this one person we met said this .. that one individual did a weird thing .. and we quickly use it to cancel out the work of the Holy Spirit who is God ..the Spirit of JESUS .

imo the greatest sin in the western church is the sin of unbelief - lord , deliver us !

 

[bushinoki]

never does it cease to amaze me how we go like moths to the flame of negative report .. this one person we met said this .. that one individual did a weird thing .. and we quickly use it to cancel out the work of the Holy Spirit who is God ..the Spirit of JESUS .

imo the greatest sin in the western church is the sin of unbelief - lord , deliver us !

Amen, and Amen! Let's quit looking at how things look to our feeble human minds, and start looking for the real fruit. What comes of how we worship? If it is good fruit, there is no bad report. If there is bad fruit, it is a bad tree, and all of the Church, not just a handful, must rebuke a false teacher such as this.