Strange and disturbing laws of the Old Testament.

[bsd13]

A lot of people think that God has somehow changed. That at some point during the 400 or so years from the end of Old Testament times to the beginning of the New Testament He has had a change of heart or something. Basically people like to think that God has become, civil. He's been modernized and tamed, but that's not true. He's exactly the same.

The difference is that He will carry out the punishments, and give justice to those who deserve it. He's given grace to everyone in the form of His Son and anyone who takes it will be spared. Anyone else is going to be made to pay "an eye for an eye". But not as vengeance for what they've done against other people, but as vengeance for what they've done against a Holy God.

The reason the OT is still important, aside from it giving a historical perspective of the faith, is that it shows very clearly what God is like. He hasn't changed. How He deals with our sin has changed but He hasn't. It still gets dealt with.

 

[Nurbz]

I had similar questions years ago, with passages that mention how to take slaves, the raping of children, the killing of unruly children, killing homosexuals, killing people who work on sundays, rules on how to grow beards, etc.

Here:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5111937

when you actually READ the OT, its very brutal, and there is no "looking at it through a 21st century lense" here, its absolutely barbaric by any standards. The concensus, is that since Jesus came, the old brutal covenant is obsolete, and the new covenant has taken its place, so the rules of the OT no longer apply (and that includes the 10 commandments technicly), because the old laws were for a people already born damned and had to sacrifice animals to save themselves, the new covenant is from Christ and that personal faith is the most important.

If Jesus was still ment to uphold the old laws, then he's angry we're not killing people who work on sunday or stoning non-virgin brides. You cannot pick and choose what guidelines you want to follow, remember so either ALL of OT still applies, or none of it and we are bound by the new covenant.

Besides, I wouldn't follow an old testament god.

 

[bsd13]

I had similar questions years ago, with passages that mention how to take slaves, the raping of children, the killing of unruly children, killing homosexuals, killing people who work on sundays, rules on how to grow beards, etc.

Here:
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=5111937

when you actually READ the OT, its very brutal, and there is no "looking at it through a 21st century lense" here, its absolutely barbaric by any standards. The concensus, is that since Jesus came, the old brutal covenant is obsolete, and the new covenant has taken its place, so the rules of the OT no longer apply (and that includes the 10 commandments technicly), because the old laws were for a people already born damned and had to sacrifice animals to save themselves, the new covenant is from Christ and that personal faith is the most important.

If Jesus was still ment to uphold the old laws, then he's angry we're not killing people who work on sunday or stoning non-virgin brides. You cannot pick and choose what guidelines you want to follow, remember so either ALL of OT still applies, or none of it and we are bound by the new covenant.

Besides, I wouldn't follow an old testament god.

Then which god do you follow? Because the Christian God is the old testament God. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He never changes...

The only thing that has changed is how sin is dealt with. Instead of His creation dealing with its own sin He has reserved that right for Himself. We no longer show His wrath to sinners (ie unbelievers) by way of stoning, or whatever. But He will reveal His own wrath.

 

[Nurbz]

Then which god do you follow? Because the Christian God is the old testament God. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. He never changes...

The only thing that has changed is how sin is dealt with. Instead of His creation dealing with its own sin He has reserved that right for Himself. We no longer show His wrath to sinners (ie unbelievers) by way of stoning, or whatever. But He will reveal His own wrath.

So are you suggesting God would punish me for not stoning my wife if she were a non-virgin at the wedding, or working on sunday to make rent, because its his job now and not others'?

I take the written word with a grain of salt because it was assembled by a group of people hundreds of years after Christs death deciding which books to include in the holy bible and which books not to include.

 

[bsd13]

So are you suggesting God would punish me for not stoning my wife if she were a non-virgin at the wedding, or working on sunday to make rent, because its his job now and not others'?

I take the written word with a grain of salt because it was assembled by a group of people hundreds of years after Christs death deciding which books to include in the holy bible and which books not to include.

Christ bore the wrath of God on the cross for the saved. So if you weren't saved, then yes I'd say He would punish you. Why? Because the choice is to either accept Christ, or obey the law perfectly.

Interesting, so God really couldn't protect His own Words from the meddling of human hands? Why would we call Him God if that were the case?

 

[Nurbz]

Christ bore the wrath of God on the cross for the saved. So if you weren't saved, then yes I'd say He would punish you. Why? Because the choice is to either accept Christ, or obey the law perfectly.

Interesting, so God really couldn't protect His own Words from the meddling of human hands? Why would we call Him God if that were the case?

Am I gathering that you hold the belief in the OT laws being current? because fatherless children were sinful in themselves and ment to be ostracized

 

[Brenlae]

Quite interesting...

Keep posting!

 

[bsd13]

Am I gathering that you hold the belief in the OT laws being current? because fatherless children were sinful in themselves and ment to be ostracized

Go reread what I said. Nevermind I'll summarize and then you can reread if you like-

1) If you are saved by Christ then the law is null and void for you.

2) If you are not saved by Christ you have to obey the law perfectly

3) If you are not saved and do not obey the law perfectly God will carry out judgment on you and punish you

4) God took the right to punish people for breaking the law out of human hands and is Himself going to be the one to do it.

So yes the OT laws are still in effect if one is not saved, but the punishment for breaking them will be at the hands of God, not mortal man.

 

[BereanTodd]

And the NT wasn't "assembled by a group of people hundreds of years after Christs death deciding which books to include in the holy bible and which books not to include."

At least 10-12 of Paul's letters were allready circulated together by the late first/early second century. The ECF's almost all agreed on what books were Scripture with very little debate or variance from a very early time. Only 2-3 of the minor books of the NT plus Revelation caused any debate at all. Only one other book really had any chance at all of inclusion and missed it.

The Gnostic gospels were never considered Scripture, they were denonuced and spoken of against by the earliest of the ECFs; in fact we know more about the gnostics from the apologetics written against them by the ECFs than we do by the few books such as Thomas, Judas and others that get talked about today.

The church did not decide or declare which books were canonical, it discovered and affirmed that which God had allready done, and which had been upheld from the earliest times of the church.

 

[Nurbz]

Go reread what I said. Nevermind I'll summarize and then you can reread if you like-

1) If you are saved by Christ then the law is null and void for you.

2) If you are not saved by Christ you have to obey the law perfectly

3) If you are not saved and do not obey the law perfectly God will carry out judgment on you and punish you

4) God took the right to punish people for breaking the law out of human hands and is Himself going to be the one to do it.

So yes the OT laws are still in effect if one is not saved, but the punishment for breaking them will be at the hands of God, not mortal man.

But what about "no one comes to the father accept through me"? Sounds like the old laws are null and void if you follow Christ or not according to John 14:6. Otherwise there are two different standards.

 

[BereanTodd]

No, one has always been able to get to God without Christ. Here is how you do it - live a perfect, sinless life. Not a good life. Not a great one. A perfect, sinless one.

Of course that is impossible, and THAT is why Christ came. The point is the law points us to the need for CHrist, and of course there is salvation in none other. But if you are not in Christ, then you had better be following God's law perfectly, because apart from either perfection or Christ then hell is your destination.

 

[Kodos]

This is my first post, but I thought I would chime in. I am also new to Christ, having just recently found Him. But, this is my personal take on the Old Testament. Sorry for the ramble!

God's Laws for the Israelites were there for a specific purpose and for their particular situation they found themselves in. His children were unruly, and defiant. God's Laws are those of a Strict Father. The way I read it is: Do not Sin, and there is no penalty. Or more colloquially: "Don't do the crime if you cannot do the time"

The New Covenant abolishes most of those laws and replaces them with the Law of Love. However, the God of Moses is the God of Christianity. God has not Changed. But times and people do.

God's Laws should not be looked at as Restrictive, He is always Protective. And his Laws in the Old Testament were in place to protect His fallen, rebellious children.

When God sent his Son down to this world, the world was Changed forever. And not just the Israelites. The Whole World.

I think, when we read the Bible (the Old Testament in particular) it behooves us to look beyond the words and the Intent of the passage. Why is it that God felt that adultery was to be punished so brutally? What did adultery do to families, to children, to society if it were just a slap on the wrist? Look at today, you might feel that adultery is "okay", "no big deal", etc... but look at the children of parents who have had affairs and been through nasty divorces.

God is Supremely Wise. Look at everything through that prism. And in the OT particularly, consider that God was not out to protect the sinner but those who would have the fallout from such sin.


I love this forum and the spirited yet civil debate. It's beautiful, and I think a testament to those of us who have found Christ. It's good to see that we agree on the Big Things and can still try to have a better understanding of Truth. I have learned a lot since lurking just a few days ago.