Stopping Abortion

[jgarden]

Just because abortion doesn't have a chance of being made illegal, doesn't mean we can just throw up our hands and give in and support it.

Immoral laws are immoral, regardless of whether the state make them legal or not, nor whether a society accepts them as moral.

Truth remains true, regardless of public opinion.

Tobacco and second hand smoke have long been responsible for the suffering and deaths of millions of Americans, so where is the moral outrage by conservatives that this immoral and addictive product hasn't been declared illegal!

Instead of devoting their time and efforts to moral platitudes, the question remains as to whether ProLifers are seriously interested in solving this problem, given that they don't appear paricularly interested in determing as to why young women seek abortions!

Where is the evidence that ProLifers have been actively involved in addressing those underlying factors that influence the decisions being made by young women and why has there been no corresponding attempts to influence governments to make the necessary investments?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Tobacco and second hand smoke have been responsible for the suffering and deaths of millions of Americans, so where is the moral outrage by conservatives that this immoral and addictive product hasn't been declared illegal!

Instead of indulging in moral platitudes, the question remains as to why ProLifers don't appear paricularly interested in determing as to why young women seek abortions - where is the evidence that they have been actively engaged in attempts to address those issues?

Why women seek abortions has nothing to do with whether it's morality or not. It doesn't justify the immorality of taking the innocent life of the unborn,

Also, the effects of 2nd hand smoke, has no bearing on this.

Abortion is an intrinsic moral evil. Smoking, although harmful is not an intrinsic moral evil and the bad effects of 2nd hand smoke are relatively new and smoking is not allowed in most public places today. In fact it's illegal, yet abortion is legal. In abortion, a human life is destroyed purposely.

 

[jgarden]

Why women seek abortions has nothing to do with whether it's morality or not. It doesn't justify the immorality of taking the innocent life of the unborn,

Also, the effects of 2nd hand smoke, has no bearing on this.

Abortion is an intrinsic moral evil. Smoking, although harmful is not an intrinsic moral evil and the bad effects of 2nd hand smoke are relatively new and smoking is not allowed in most public places today. In fact it's illegal, yet abortion is legal. In abortion, a human life is destroyed purposely.

I was operating under the assumption that ProLIfers actually cared about lives of these young women and the personal challenges they face!

Apparently ProLife has no interest in addressing those underlying problems that influence women to seek abortions - they just want to impose their moral code that every woman be forced to have a full term pregnancy and then declare victory, without ever giving the longterm consequences concerning the welfare of those children a second thought!

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

Just because abortion doesn't have a chance of being made illegal, doesn't mean we can just throw up our hands and give in and support it.

Immoral laws are immoral, regardless of whether the state make them legal or not, nor whether a society accepts them as moral.

Truth remains true, regardless of public opinion.

Immoral to you, your moral religious beliefs are not necessary someone elses...that is biggest problem with conservatives...you think you have the right to force someone to follow your moral beliefs. It is not a biblical one.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I was operating under the assumption that ProLIfers actually cared about lives of these young women and the personal challenges they face!

Apparently ProLife has no interest in addressing those underlying problems that influence women to seek abortions - they just want to impose their moral code that every woman be forced to have a full term pregnancy and then declare victory, without ever giving the longterm consequences concerning the welfare of those children a second thought!

This is your assumption, which of course is wrong.

Most pro-life people support the charities and organizations which help women and especially single mothers. Catholic Charities, Mercy Corps, the Salvation Army, just to name a few.

You try to use a guilt trip against people who are pro-life.

Granted, there are zealots in all movements, and they do more harm than good.

FYI, I'm not part of the "pro-life" political movement itself. I've had my run in's with them at Catholic Answers.

However, everyone will at some point in life have to deal with abortion in some way in their own lives.

Unless you are grounded in your beliefs, you'll make huge errors in the choices you make.

As I have been taught, always error on the side of life.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Immoral to you, your moral religious beliefs are not necessary someone elses...that is biggest problem with conservatives...you think you have the right to force someone to follow your moral beliefs. It is not a biblical one.

So, I believe murder is immoral. For you, if some one doesn't believe it, I'm imposing my own beliefs on them ?

Society will hold moral values which benefit life or destroy it.

Our society is currently operating in a value that will destroy life. Fist the nation and then the people, I have no doubt about it.

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

So, I believe murder is immoral. For you, if some one doesn't believe it, I'm imposing my own beliefs on them ?

Society will hold moral values which benefit life or destroy it.

Our society is currently operating in a value that will destroy life. Fist the nation and then the people, I have no doubt about it.

Okay in gods laws Murder is punished by death...but if a man causes a woman to miscarry he is fined...the unborn child is not considered a human being and the loss of the unborn child is not considered murder...if the unborn child was considered a human being by gods laws it would demand the death of the one who caused the misarrange. You conservatives make me laugh because your hoopla is not based on religious doctrine...it is based on your personal beliefs. Now I will give this much to you....around 28 weeks the brain activates the part of the fetus the fills pain and has consciousness. At the point I would give you the it is a human being part and that being said finding a doctor or even a pregnant woman having abortion at the point except for medical reason is extremely rare. In 2015, more than 400k abortions took place in the US. Of those 1.3% happened on or after 21 weeks of pregnancy, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The vast majority of abortions take place at or before 13 weeks of pregnancy. And as for the 1.3% it was normally because the pregnancy posed a threat to their health or there were fetal medical conditions.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Okay in gods laws Murder is punished by death...but if a man causes a woman to miscarry he is fined...the unborn child is not considered a human being and the loss of the unborn child is not considered murder...if the unborn child was considered a human being by gods laws it would demand the death of the one who caused the misarrange. You conservatives make me laugh because your hoopla is not based on religious doctrine...it is based on your personal beliefs. Now I will give this much to you....around 28 weeks the brain activates the part of the fetus the fills pain and has consciousness. At the point I would give you the it is a human being part and that being said finding a doctor or even a pregnant woman having abortion at the point except for medical reason is extremely rare. In 2015, more than 400k abortions took place in the US. Of those 1.3% happened on or after 21 weeks of pregnancy, according to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC). The vast majority of abortions take place at or before 13 weeks of pregnancy. And as for the 1.3% it was normally because the pregnancy posed a threat to their health or there were fetal medical conditions.

First off, the Old Testament laws were for the an ancient people as they understood things in their time.

Jesus gave us a different understanding.

An unborn fetus is considered a human life and if allowed to develop will become a full human being and treated as a "person" by law upon birth. The difference is between conception and birth. No one skips conception in their development. At conception when you were just and embryo, was that you or something different ?


If a man kills a woman's unborn child he's has murdered the child.

FYI, the definition for "murder," is the illegal taking of another's life.

Make it legal, as in abortion, it's no longer considered murder.

So what ? Not all manmade laws are moral.

Do you consider murder immoral ?

If so, what is the pretext you base this on ?

What if a culture believes murder of innocent people is honorable. There were cultures that believed this. Should they have been taught differently ?

 

[tulc]

Well...if you want to be technical the Bible also doesn't teach life as beginning at conception. Since life is breath, life could only begin when there are lungs, which happens at 24-36 weeks after conception.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

 

[Archivist]

Well...if you want to be technical the Bible also doesn't teach life as beginning at conception. Since life is breath, life could only begin when there are lungs, which happens at 24-36 weeks after conception.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

Which is why our Jewish friends believe that life begins with the first breath.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Which is why our Jewish friends believe that life begins with the first breath.

I believe they believe personhood begins at the first breath, breathed into humans by God.

Of course we Christians have;

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, should come to me?

For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:41-44

John had not been born at that time, but was still and unborn fetus in Elizabeth's womb.

Although in Judaism, they do not prohibit abortion per se, they do teach responsibility of a mother toward the infant she is carrying in her womb. Reckless destruction of the unborn by the mother would not be acceptable in traditional Judaism.

And from the Old Testament:

You formed my inmost being;
you knit me in my mother’s womb. Pslam 139:13

There is a strong respect for life in Judaism

 

[Archivist]

I believe they believe personhood begins at the first breath, breathed into humans by God.

Of course we Christians have;

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, should come to me?

For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:41-44

John had not been born at that time, but was still and unborn fetus in Elizabeth's womb.

Although in Judaism, they do not prohibit abortion per se, they do teach responsibility of a mother toward the infant she is carrying in her womb. Reckless destruction of the unborn by the mother would not be acceptable in traditional Judaism.

And from the Old Testament:

You formed my inmost being;
you knit me in my mother’s womb. Pslam 139:13

There is a strong respect for life in Judaism

But while they do teach responsibility of the mother towards the infant, they do allow abortion. In the case of complications during delivery, if the fetus has not taken its first breath the doctors are to save the life of the pregnant woman.

I remember attending a lecture by two rabbis on the topic a number of years ago. They agreed that their faith does not allow abortion on demand, but it does place the life of the mother first until the infant takes its first breath.

 

[Quartermaine]

First off, the Old Testament laws were for the an ancient people as they understood things in their time.

Jesus gave us a different understanding.

An unborn fetus is considered a human life and if allowed to develop will become a full human being and treated as a "person" by law upon birth. The difference is between conception and birth. No one skips conception in their development. At conception when you were just and embryo, was that you or something different ?

i am the sum of my memories and experiences and consciousness all of which require a functioning brain. No one has one of those at conception....and no one has one of those for most to the time they are a fetus.

If a man kills a woman's unborn child he's has murdered the child.

FYI, the definition for "murder," is the illegal taking of another's life.

Make it legal, as in abortion, it's no longer considered murder.

So what ? Not all manmade laws are moral.

Do you consider murder immoral ?

doing so in self defense is legal. So is doing it times of war.

are these immoral things?

 

[Quartermaine]

Well...if you want to be technical the Bible also doesn't teach life as beginning at conception. Since life is breath, life could only begin when there are lungs, which happens at 24-36 weeks after conception.
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

long standing church teachings had that a stillborn or a miscarriage was never alive and was without a soul (thus not needing baptism) unless it drew a breath

 

[JimR-OCDS]

i am the sum of my memories and experiences and consciousness all of which require a functioning brain. No one has one of those at conception....and no one has one of those for most to the time they are a fetus.

doing so in self defense is legal. So is doing it times of war.

are these immoral things?

Scientists are now beginning to understand that consciousness isn't created by the brain, but separate from the brain. Read Dr Eben Alexander's experience on the issue. FYI, he's a neurosurgeon.

Depends. Sometimes soldiers have killed in a war which was immoral.

Sometimes a person claims self-defense when he actually killed without cause.

Each has to examine his own conscience, but we as a society need to have moral standards or we will collapse. I believe we're on the road to collapse, but it's not too late to change things.

 

[Quartermaine]

Scientists are now beginning to understand that consciousness isn't created by the brain, but separate from the brain. Read Dr Eben Alexander's experience on the issue. FYI, he's a neurosurgeon.

Depends. Sometimes soldiers have killed in a war which was immoral.

Sometimes a person claims self-defense when he actually killed without cause.

Each has to examine his own conscience, but we as a society need to have moral standards or we will collapse. I believe we're on the road to collapse, but it's not too late to change things.

if you believe that each has to examine their own conscience then you are pro-choice.

 

[Archivist]

if you believe that each has to examine their own conscience then you are pro-choice.

Nothing wrong with being pro-choice.

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

First off, the Old Testament laws were for the an ancient people as they understood things in their time.

Jesus gave us a different understanding.

An unborn fetus is considered a human life and if allowed to develop will become a full human being and treated as a "person" by law upon birth. The difference is between conception and birth. No one skips conception in their development. At conception when you were just and embryo, was that you or something different ?


If a man kills a woman's unborn child he's has murdered the child.

FYI, the definition for "murder," is the illegal taking of another's life.

Make it legal, as in abortion, it's no longer considered murder.

So what ? Not all manmade laws are moral.

Do you consider murder immoral ?

If so, what is the pretext you base this on ?

What if a culture believes murder of innocent people is honorable. There were cultures that believed this. Should they have been taught differently ?

Jim get your bible right...Jesus says he is not here to destroy the law but to fulfill it...Jesus was a jew and he followed those laws. And Jesus is god...god in human form but god never the less.

It shouldn’t matter what the Bible says about abortion because the United States is not a theocracy and by the way the bible says nothing about it not one word. And if you go by the old testament the laws written by god who is Jesus the unborn child is not a human. Now nearly everyone agrees if the child can survive outside the womb hardly any doctor or pregnant woman would have an abortion short of medical reasons so why are arguing this...you think it is a human from conception...that is your opinion...the fetus has know consciousness or concept of pain or anything till nearly the 6 to 7th month of pregnancy and that is not opinion that is medical fact. So what is your argument...conservatives go off on this topic weather the fetus is a human or not but thing is there is no biblical stance other than the old testament law that says it is not a human. The whole stance on abortion is not a religious stance taken by god it is a personal belief. Your arguing this for what of all abortions about 3% are late term and happen for medical reason...the other 97% happen around 8 weeks. So what is your argument cause it is not god based....the only area were it speaks of the unborn child...it not considered a human

 

[Online.Gamer.79]

I believe they believe personhood begins at the first breath, breathed into humans by God.

Of course we Christians have;

When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, should come to me?

For at the moment the sound of your greeting reached my ears, the infant in my womb leaped for joy. Luke 1:41-44

John had not been born at that time, but was still and unborn fetus in Elizabeth's womb.

Although in Judaism, they do not prohibit abortion per se, they do teach responsibility of a mother toward the infant she is carrying in her womb. Reckless destruction of the unborn by the mother would not be acceptable in traditional Judaism.

And from the Old Testament:

You formed my inmost being;
you knit me in my mother’s womb. Pslam 139:13

There is a strong respect for life in Judaism

Jim most abortions are not for willy nilly reasons. Most women do not have sex regularly and every time they get pregnant go to the doctor to abort.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

if you believe that each has to examine their own conscience then you are pro-choice.

A person has to properly form their conscience according to God's law, not according to their own.

Being pro-choice means providing support for those who choose to abortion their unborn.
There is no neutral position when it comes to abortion. Eventually it will come to your own family and if you're conscience isn't properly formed, you'll go along with anything that is presented.