Stopping Abortion

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim get your bible right...Jesus says he is not here to destroy the law but to fulfill it...Jesus was a jew and he followed those laws. And Jesus is god...god in human form but god never the less.

It shouldn’t matter what the Bible says about abortion because the United States is not a theocracy and by the way the bible says nothing about it not one word. And if you go by the old testament the laws written by god who is Jesus the unborn child is not a human. Now nearly everyone agrees if the child can survive outside the womb hardly any doctor or pregnant woman would have an abortion short of medical reasons so why are arguing this...you think it is a human from conception...that is your opinion...the fetus has know consciousness or concept of pain or anything till nearly the 6 to 7th month of pregnancy and that is not opinion that is medical fact. So what is your argument...conservatives go off on this topic weather the fetus is a human or not but thing is there is no biblical stance other than the old testament law that says it is not a human. The whole stance on abortion is not a religious stance taken by god it is a personal belief. Your arguing this for what of all abortions about 3% are late term and happen for medical reason...the other 97% happen around 8 weeks. So what is your argument cause it is not god based....the only area were it speaks of the unborn child...it not considered a human

Well you must be a Scripture Scholar.

What were the two greatest commandments Jesus gave us ?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Jim most abortions are not for willy nilly reasons. Most women do not have sex regularly and every time they get pregnant go to the doctor to abort.

Most abortions are because the woman feels she has "no choice." If only she understood that she does.

BTW, I just read an article on how Stevie Nicks said that if she hadn't had an abortion, Fleetwood Mac would not have existed. Really ?

 

[Quartermaine]

A person has to properly form their conscience according to God's law, not according to their own.

Being pro-choice means providing support for those who choose to abortion their unborn.
There is no neutral position when it comes to abortion. Eventually it will come to your own family and if you're conscience isn't properly formed, you'll go along with anything that is presented.

so your statement about everyone needing to examine their conscious was just so much bull

 

[Albion]

Jim most abortions are not for willy nilly reasons. Most women do not have sex regularly and every time they get pregnant go to the doctor to abort.

Is the issue decided simply by how many women fall into the different categories of motivation--as though the consequences for the child mean nothing at all?

 

[JimR-OCDS]

so your statement about everyone needing to examine their conscious was just so much bull

I'm gonna refuse to answer your insulting question.

 

[Quartermaine]

I'm gonna refuse to answer your insulting question.

it was a statement not a question. You say everyone should examine their own conscious but demand everyone come to the conclusion you do....

 

[Mountainmanbob]

from what I'm seeing it's still only women's bodies that people are trying to control





and (as has been pointed out) it's not women who can get someone pregnant every night of the week.
tulc(just curious)

No one wants control over them and their sin.
That's between Him and them.
M

 

[Archivist]

If you are opposed to abortion then by all means do not have one. That seem simple enough.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

If you are opposed to abortion then by all means do not have one. That seem simple enough.

Then don't ask me to support it either.

 

[Archivist]

Then don't ask me to support it either.

I don’t recall ever asking you to support it. I think I made that clear—if you are opposed to abortion don’t have one.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I don’t recall ever asking you to support it. I think I made that clear—if you are opposed to abortion don’t have one.

A woman can't have a legal abortion without outside support.

She needs a doctor and nurse willing to perform it.

She needs the infrastructure in place to support the clinic she has the abortion in

And of course many want the government to fund her abortion.

She needs society to make it legal, most of all.

No one is an island. The choices we make have an effect on all of society.

 

[Archivist]

A woman can't have a legal abortion without outside support. She needs a doctor and nurse willing to perform it.

That is the choice of doctors and nurses. I don’t know if any medical personnel who are forced to perform abortions.

She needs the infrastructure in place to support the clinic she has the abortion in

And unless you donate to support that clinic you are not supporting that.

And of course many want the government to fund her abortion.

And we all pay taxes that support things that we oppose. My former Amish neighbors paid taxes that supported the military, even though they are opposed to the military.

She needs society to make it legal, most of all. No one is an island. The choices we make have an effect on all of society.

But making abortion legal wasn’t your choice, was it? You had nothing to do with it, it was a decision by the Supreme Court although it was already legal in some states. At the time the nation was founded abortion was legal under the Common Law.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Archivist,

That is the choice of doctors and nurses. I don’t know if any medical personnel who are forced to perform abortions.

Not always. My aunt was a surgical tech and was pro-choice until she assisted in a 2nd trimester abortion at the hospital she worked in. After, she seeing what she saw, she refused to assist in any future abortions. Management made her life hell as a result and in the end, forced her into retirement. Also, hospitals had in their interview process, to ask doctors if they opposed abortion. If they gave a yes for an an answer, there were not hired.


And unless you donate to support that clinic you are not supporting that.

We pay for the streets and the infrastructure that supports the clinic. We also often subsidize doctor's student loans as many who perform abortions are young doctors still trying to pay off their end of their student loans.

And we all pay taxes that support things that we oppose. My former Amish neighbors paid taxes that supported the military, even though they are opposed to the military.

Not the same thing. The defense of the nation is a benefit to the Amish as well as everyone else. Granted, not all wars are moral, and we have a right to oppose them, just as we have a right to oppose support for abortion.


But making abortion legal wasn’t your choice, was it? You had nothing to do with it, it was a decision by the Supreme Court although it was already legal in some states. At the time the nation was founded abortion was legal under the Common Law.

But I can oppose abortion and support candidates and Supreme Court Nominees who are pro-life.

 

[tulc]

A woman can't have a legal abortion without outside support.

She needs a doctor and nurse willing to perform it.

She needs the infrastructure in place to support the clinic she has the abortion in

And of course many want the government to fund her abortion.

She needs society to make it legal, most of all.

No one is an island. The choices we make have an effect on all of society.

let's look at that from another angle:

A woman can't have healthcare without outside support.

She needs a doctor and nurse willing to perform healthcare.

She needs the infrastructure in place to support the clinic she has the healthcare in

And of course many want the government to fund her healthcare .

She needs society to make healthcare legal, most of all.

No one is an island. The choices we make have an effect on all of society (emph. added)

Because really, that's what the whole abortion issue comes down to: some people think a woman should have control of her own body/health care and some people think society should get a vote on her body. People can dress it up however they like but in the end it's always going to be "we can't trust women to make decisions about their own bodies that we agree with, so we have to "help" them by keeping them under our control....for their own and societies good of course.".
tulc(just a thought)

 

[JimR-OCDS]

let's look at that from another angle:

Because really, that's what the whole abortion issue comes down to: some people think a woman should have control of her own body/health care and some people think society should get a vote on her body. People can dress it up however they like but in the end it's always going to be "we can't trust women to make decisions about their own bodies that we agree with, so we have to "help" them by keeping them under our control....for their own and societies good of course.".
tulc(just a thought)

It's not her body alone which is the issue, but the body of the unborn inside of her, which she wants terminated.

 

[tulc]

It's not her body alone which is the issue, but the body of the unborn inside of her, which she wants terminated.

No, that's the excuse people use to try and have control over the woman's body/choices. If it was REALLY about that people would be willing to do what was necessary to keep from having to do to make those decisions. (provide housing, health care for the woman and baby, support after birth, education and all that) But suggest that whole "men should all be forced to have vasectomies at puberty until it's decided they are responsible enough to father children!" suggestion, and men recoil at the idea. But if you think about it that would make more sense, because while women are the ones who get pregnant, they can have, at most, one maybe two babies a year while a man can father children every day of the week and twice on Saturday. But society only seeks to control the woman body, not the men.
tulc(because it's really about control, not life)

 

[Archivist]

Not always. My aunt was a surgical tech and was pro-choice until she assisted in a 2nd trimester abortion at the hospital she worked in. After, she seeing what she saw, she refused to assist in any future abortions. Management made her life hell as a result and in the end, forced her into retirement.

No, that was your aunt’s choice. No one forced her to do anything. Were there no other hospitals on the area? No other doctors?

Also, hospitals had in their interview process, to ask doctors if they opposed abortion. If they gave a yes for an an answer, there were not hired.

Proof please.

We pay for the streets and the infrastructure that supports the clinic. We also often subsidize doctor's student loans as many who perform abortions are young doctors still trying to pay off their end of their student loans.

So now highway taxes and student loans support abortion. Get real.

Not the same thing. The defense of the nation is a benefit to the Amish as well as everyone else. Granted, not all wars are moral, and we have a right to oppose them, just as we have a right to oppose support for abortion.

So the Amish should have to pay taxes to support the military, but you shouldn’t have to pay highway taxes because that supports abortion. And no, the Amish would tell you that having an army is evil. You know the the US Army actually killed some Amish during WWI because they spoke German.

But I can oppose abortion and support candidates and Supreme Court Nominees who are pro-life.

Try reading what I wrote. I said that making abortion legal wasn’t your choice. It was decided by the courts and by some state legislatures. I never said that you didn’t have a right to oppose it. I advise that you simply not have one.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Archivist

No, that was your aunt’s choice. No one forced her to do anything. Were there no other hospitals on the area? No other doctors?

Yes they did ! She was 63 years old and had been working at that hospital before Roe V Wade. Legally, they were not suppose to force her to assist in abortions. But what they did was, suddenly give her week-end shifts when she was suppose to be off. Late night calls to go into work and assist in a routine abortion. She put up with the harassment for two years and decided it was easier to just retire.



Proof please.

Trump putting the right to follow one's conscience into law makes it unnecessary today. However, here was a case of a nurse in VT. US agency: Hospital forced nurse to participate in abortion


So now highway taxes and student loans support abortion. Get real.

The infrastructure necessary for clinics to operate in society are supported by taxes.
Try living in the real world for a change.



So the Amish should have to pay taxes to support the military, but you shouldn’t have to pay highway taxes because that supports abortion.

Not what I said. You have a habit of twisting what I post to help your argument.

I said, the military defends the country, Amish included, so it's a benefit for them.
Abortion doesn't benefit anyone in society.

 

[Archivist]

Yes they did ! She was 63 years old and had been working at that hospital before Roe V Wade. Legally, they were not suppose to force her to assist in abortions. But what they did was, suddenly give her week-end shifts when she was suppose to be off. Late night calls to go into work and assist in a routine abortion. She put up with the harassment for two years and decided it was easier to just retire.

Try reading what I wrote. Were there no other hospitals in the area? No other doctors?

[QUOTET][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] putting the right to follow one's conscience into law makes it unnecessary today. However, here was a case of a nurse in VT. US agency: Hospital forced nurse to participate in abortion[/QUOTE]

You earlier said this involved doctors (plural). No you give an example of one nurse.

The infrastructure necessary for clinics to operate in society are supported by taxes.

Yes, and the infrastructure is used by society at large, not just be people driving for abortions.

Try living in the real world for a change.

You are the one living in la la land, not me.

Not what I said. You have a habit of twisting what I post to help your argument.

I’m not twisting anything.

I said, the military defends the country, Amish included, so it's a benefit for them.

They don’t think so.

Abortion doesn't benefit anyone in society.

Tell that to a pregnant woman whose life is in danger. Tell that to a rape of incest victim.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Archivist,

Try reading what I wrote. Were there no other hospitals in the area? No other doctors?

You must be delusional. There is no way a hospital would hire a former surgical tech who quit her job at age 63. Trust me, I lost my job at age 59.5 and age discrimination is real and was more real in my aunt's time than today.

You earlier said this involved doctors (plural). No you give an example of one nurse.

Because the story of hospitals asking new doctors their position on abortion was a while ago and googling it, brings up today's laws that Trump put in place and the all whining about that.



Yes, and the infrastructure is used by society at large, not just be people driving for abortions.

Like I said earlier, society must give the support for abortion a woman doesn't decide on her own. We are part of society. If you don't oppose abortion, you support it. Claiming yourself as "pro-choice," doesn't distance you from the guilt of supporting abortion, for in reality, you do.


Tell that to a pregnant woman whose life is in danger. Tell that to a rape of incest victim.

I see you have no clue between the difference in a direct abortion and an indirect abortion.

If a pregnant woman's life is in danger, the doctors can perform an indirect abortion. A doctor will try to save both mother and child, but if when he can't save both, an indirect abortion is performed and is licit in most religions, even the Catholic Church. Also, modern science in the developed world, a viable baby never has to be directly killed in order to save the life of the mother. FYI, my son was born at 27 weeks in Boston. I know what premature birth is and how young they can try to save a baby.

Rape is another issue. I understand that not all women could carry through with a pregnancy after being raped. I have no problem with her taking Plan B emergency contraception and if need be, a "direct abortion," but this is very rare.