Stop!!!

[FIRESTORM314]

From experience, a change of Pastor usually causes problems. People like stability and change is stressful. Instead of growth you can get people out of church which is not what was intended.

If it aint' broke - don't fix it.

The body of Christ is meant to function as one. You've got many years of experience in a group. Mentoring is a good thing. I think God wants us to rely on each other as well as him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

From experience, a change of Pastor usually causes problems. People like stability and change is stressful. Instead of growth you can get people out of church which is not what was intended.

If it aint' broke - don't fix it.

The body of Christ is meant to function as one. You've got many years of experience in a group. Mentoring is a good thing. I think God wants us to rely on each other as well as him.

If they leavebthe church then it’s best that the pastor went on somewhere else. They should be there to worship and learn not to come see their favorite pastor. I understand what your saying because I really bonded to our last Pastor. He helped me come to know Christ. So he really means a lot to me as a mentor and brother. I do miss him a lot but ultimately my reason for going to church should be to praise and worship God not to visit with my friend.

 

[FIRESTORM314]

If they leavebthe church then it’s best that the pastor went on somewhere else. They should be there to worship and learn not to come see their favorite pastor. I understand what your saying because I really bonded to our last Pastor. He helped me come to know Christ. So he really means a lot to me as a mentor and brother. I do miss him a lot but ultimately my reason for going to church should be to praise and worship God not to visit with my friend.

People being People - this isn't what happens.
People are at different stages in their development. A change can be damaging to some imo.

Yes we should rely on Christ more but there is also strength in numbers including support, encouragement, etc. I wouldn't like to replace my wife every five years just because I can grow more by myself

 

[bugkiller]

We need people (preachers, teachers) to stop teaching what they were taught and start teaching what the Bible actually says....

ie - some believe Mt Sinai is in northern Israel, yet the Bible tells us just to Moses getting the Commandments outside of the Sinai desert at Rephiudim (Exodus19)...

This is just one example.... Doesn't sound like a big deal but one little change here and there leads to Jesus died for all the world's sins and all people will be drawn to Him and enter Heaven

Enough teaching of what you want think you know and get back into the Word... The Word has Truth and Life not men's words

(Steps off soapbox)

What a novel idea! I am all for it.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

While I agree with both of you, it seems to me that this is a two-sided issue. Where are we to find these preachers and teachers who don't teach "what they were taught?" Most regular congregations that I'm aware of want "qualified pastors" - that is, individuals who have gone through some systematised and formal training. Most congregations don't or feel they can't identify their own members who have the Spirit's gift of teaching, or gift of pastoring, and so place themselves in the hands of "professionals." This system is perpetuated by the declining amount of time given to prayer, bible study (sound teaching) and evangelism within many if not most churches (at least in the region I live in.) If members of congregations are not willing to give the time and effort needed to build up their own individual and collective spiritual life, they will not be in position to discern whether what their 'pastors' and 'teachers' say is sound doctrine.

The Bible schools, colleges, seminaries have become formalised organisations whose operations must be financed, and so are at the mercy of the doctrinal preferences of their financiers.

Do either of you, or any other reader have a solution?

I agree. Money is a cause of evil and love of it is the root.

bugkiller

 

[bugkiller]

Where we tend to go to church there has been a strong swing from the broken man coming to Jesus to instead, Jesus came to serve us. And while that is not totally untrue, and there are scriptures to support such things, I don't feel it should become a main theme of a 1 hour sermon, never mind many sermons, at least not in that terminology. However, in so doing it is attracting a lot of young people of course ( not a bad thing to be attracting young families), the I My Me crowd loves to hear God came just for the purpose to serve them. This is troubling me a little bit ( part of the older generation) because it seems to be becoming week to week. There needs to be devotion time for homage to God, worship within the sermon itself not just in the music, that He is the eternal God above all things, that contrast of God serving ( washing of Peters feet etc) needs to be present, but that He is all mighty and all God. He loves us and as such can chastise us if we get out of line. There are consequences for our actions. I'm hearing too much that God serves us lately, in those words. God being for us who have accepted Jesus as Lord and Savior can take on many manifestations/forms. I'm hoping as Easter passes we take a new tact.

I believe I have witnessed a departure of older people from church. Many that are left are stuck in routine.

bugkiller

 

[Monna]

This is the problem, isn't it? Human beings relying on human understanding and human choices. Should we not illuminate Jesus according to His will? Scripture isn't hard to understand if we just surrender to and listen to God's Spirit. We need to start listening to Jesus, and stop listening to man.

Let us not forget that the true church is the Body of Christ. The true church is not a particular denomination of even congregation. Most of us could not say with certainty where the 'outlines' of the Body are. It is not for us to say. Jesus knows those who are his.

There are a couple of truly amazing things that we also tend to forget.
1. Jesus became a human being. And being a man he got to know all the best and worst sides of mankind. So He knows what we are like, as individuals but also when relating to others in groups (like local congregations of believers). When He came, as a totally dependent and vulnerable baby, He put his life in the hands of a couple of inexperienced teenagers! He was their first born. And very soon they had to flee to Egypt to escape the constant threat of death - and there, it is almost certain that these two teenagers didn't have either of their extended families to help them. God (en)trusted them, in spite of the likelihood that they would make mistakes.
2. He chose to give responsibility for the spreading of the good news worldwide to 'ordinary' people like you and me. And He did it in spite of know exactly what kind of beings we are! Just as when He put his very life in the hands of his teenager 'parents' as a vulnerable infant, He has put His 'flock,' His 'Bride,' His 'Body,' His Temple' in the hands of ordinary people (with good, or misguided 'education'). We know from the New Testament and other writings of the first couple of centuries after that, that the 11-12 apostles did not all agree on everything. There wasn't totally unity on all fronts, and yet the Spirit worked.

Whether it is because we are blind, deaf, or pig-headed and all have our own hidden assumptions, it is a fact that there are parts of the scriptures over which we disagree it is not so simple and straightforward. And even deeply spiritual men and women have disagreed through the ages. The apostles themselves did not understand everything Jesus taught them (and they 'listened' to Jesus!) and had to have things explained in detail by him. More than once he had to chide them for their lack of faith or understanding, and even had to correct them.

We can bemoan all the things that have gone wrong, most of it within the context of man-made organisations (which are also subject to the original Fall), but let us not forget that Christ is still the head of the real church, and His Spirit IS still working, and HIS power is undiminished. Perhaps we are just looking in the wrong places to see it, and because of this are discouraged because we want it or expect it to be in 'our church gatherings.' His work is not finished, but He WILL complete it, and present his Bride perfect and without blemish at the time appointed. Be of good cheer! And don't give up on your fellow-believers - Jesus hasn't.

 

[Emli]

Let us not forget that the true church is the Body of Christ. The true church is not a particular denomination of even congregation. Most of us could not say with certainty where the 'outlines' of the Body are. It is not for us to say. Jesus knows those who are his.

There are a couple of truly amazing things that we also tend to forget.
1. Jesus became a human being. And being a man he got to know all the best and worst sides of mankind. So He knows what we are like, as individuals but also when relating to others in groups (like local congregations of believers). When He came, as a totally dependent and vulnerable baby, He put his life in the hands of a couple of inexperienced teenagers! He was their first born. And very soon they had to flee to Egypt to escape the constant threat of death - and there, it is almost certain that these two teenagers didn't have either of their extended families to help them. God (en)trusted them, in spite of the likelihood that they would make mistakes.
2. He chose to give responsibility for the spreading of the good news worldwide to 'ordinary' people like you and me. And He did it in spite of know exactly what kind of beings we are! Just as when He put his very life in the hands of his teenager 'parents' as a vulnerable infant, He has put His 'flock,' His 'Bride,' His 'Body,' His Temple' in the hands of ordinary people (with good, or misguided 'education'). We know from the New Testament and other writings of the first couple of centuries after that, that the 11-12 apostles did not all agree on everything. There wasn't totally unity on all fronts, and yet the Spirit worked.

Whether it is because we are blind, deaf, or pig-headed and all have our own hidden assumptions, it is a fact that there are parts of the scriptures over which we disagree it is not so simple and straightforward. And even deeply spiritual men and women have disagreed through the ages. The apostles themselves did not understand everything Jesus taught them (and they 'listened' to Jesus!) and had to have things explained in detail by him. More than once he had to chide them for their lack of faith or understanding, and even had to correct them.

We can bemoan all the things that have gone wrong, most of it within the context of man-made organisations (which are also subject to the original Fall), but let us not forget that Christ is still the head of the real church, and His Spirit IS still working, and HIS power is undiminished. Perhaps we are just looking in the wrong places to see it, and because of this are discouraged because we want it or expect it to be in 'our church gatherings.' His work is not finished, but He WILL complete it, and present his Bride perfect and without blemish at the time appointed. Be of good cheer! And don't give up on your fellow-believers - Jesus hasn't.

Actually, Jesus did not give the responsibility to "ordinary" people. He gave it to people who are transformed by the Holy Spirit, set free from our sinful nature. We don't spread the Gospel by ourselves, relying on our own human minds (although some do, and that is where things go wrong), but by our new nature, walking in faith as new creations, with the mind of Christ. The excuse "I am just a man" doesn't work for a true Christian. And that is the true Church, those who are being led by His Spirit. We spread the Gospel in Christ, not in our fallen sinful state.

And Jesus was never defenseless. He was protected by God and His angels, and led by the Holy Spirit. God was with them. As He is with everyone who belongs to Him.

You are putting too much focus on humanity, and too little on Jesus Christ, and that is exactly why we have all the issues in the Church today. And that is exactly what has gone wrong since the fall.

 

[Monna]

Actually, Jesus did not give the responsibility to "ordinary" people.

Sorry Emli, if you misunderstood. They were ordinary when he called them: fishermen, a tax collector, and others, most of them we don't even know what their trades were. Yes, they were empowered by the Holy Spirit. But they were commissioned before they received the Holy Spirit. But they were not chosen for their high rank or education. Later, there were others, like Paul who was an educated man. And Luke, a doctor came on the scene, not as an apostle, but one who spread the good news. Don't forget the role of women like Mary of Magdala, the 'other' Mary, Dorcas the seamstress, Lydia and others that Paul mentions as co-workers. You are right that the Spirit made them "special" - but the same is true today. God doesn't choose people simply because other people see them as special, but because He has the intention to use them for His purposes. Then he empowers them. They only become (this kind of) special after he has touched them.

The whole wonder of Jesus, is that He was fully human! Of course he was "protected" - but so is everyone today, believer or unbeliever who makes it through years of life. You were protected before you became a believer, as well as being 'protected' after. If you see his life here as somehow magically superhuman, then there was nothing special in his incarnation. He is rendered to be little more than the Greek idea of a god.

And in another way, I can say every single person is special in God's eyes. In that sense nobody is 'ordinary' - but that is not what I meant, and I think you knew it.

 

[Emli]

Sorry Emli, if you misunderstood. They were ordinary when he called them: fishermen, a tax collector, and others, most of them we don't even know what their trades were. Yes, they were empowered by the Holy Spirit. But they were commissioned before they received the Holy Spirit. But they were not chosen for their high rank or education. Later, there were others, like Paul who was an educated man. And Luke, a doctor came on the scene, not as an apostle, but one who spread the good news. Don't forget the role of women like Mary of Magdala, the 'other' Mary, Dorcas the seamstress, Lydia and others that Paul mentions as co-workers. You are right that the Spirit made them "special" - but the same is true today. God doesn't choose people simply because other people see them as special, but because He has the intention to use them for His purposes. Then he empowers them. They only become (this kind of) special after he has touched them.

The whole wonder of Jesus, is that He was fully human! Of course he was "protected" - but so is everyone today, believer or unbeliever who makes it through years of life. You were protected before you became a believer, as well as being 'protected' after. If you see his life here as somehow magically superhuman, then there was nothing special in his incarnation. He is rendered to be little more than the Greek idea of a god.

And in another way, I can say every single person is special in God's eyes. In that sense nobody is 'ordinary' - but that is not what I meant, and I think you knew it.

I agree with you that they were ordinary in that sense, that is one of the reasons why Jesus was hated by the world, but not after they were saved. A lot of people stay the way they were before they accepted truth, and they never see the power of God, because they don't believe in it.

And actually, no, unbelievers aren't protected. Not according to the Bible. God's protection is ONLY for those who put their trust in Him. Yes, believers are protected before we are saved, to an extent, but not those who aren't predestined. They are dead in sin and in the power of Satan. God decides when they die, and He is in control of their lives, and I believe that there is a certain amount of intervention, for His purposes, but not like a believer is protected. God has shown me how He is in control of every detail of my life.

And I'm saying the opposite of being magically superhuman. That would be having power in the flesh. Jesus was fully human, but He was still fully God. He was the Son of God. The Word of God made flesh. We have to always remember this, otherwise we are in danger of giving in to the anti-christian lie that Jesus was just a prophet or that He wasn't God. It is really important that we remember that He is the God of the Universe. Or else His sacrifice means nothing. That is the whole wonder of Jesus. Not that He was a man, (that would have put Him in the category of myths, being some superhuman) but that He was God born on Earth as a man. He was with God in the beginning. The entire Creation was made through Him and for Him. He is the King of Kings and Lord of Lords. So no, the whole wonder of Jesus was not that He was human, but that He was fully God yet fully man.

The Holy Spirit gives us power to preach the Gospel, and gifts to edify the Church, but they aren't superpowers. It is God working in the lives of a believer, for His purposes. And it is His power that changes us by cleansing us from sin, healing us and by renewing our minds. It is supernatural. It is not human philosophies and myths. It isn't meant to change us a little, but completely. Jesus removes sin and death and gives us life. And then He empowers us to preach the Gospel with power, by His leading. It doesn't give us superpowers, but it enables us to be used by God to show His power to the unbelieving world, not just by signs and wonders, not just by testifying and showing our transformed lives, but both. To be His light and His voice to the world, walking like He walked and giving Glory to God like He did. And preaching truth like He did.

 

[Monna]

And actually, no, unbelievers aren't protected. Not according to the Bible. God's protection is ONLY for those who put their trust in Him.

We get a view of God very willing to defer from the annihilation of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18:22-33, and He was willing to do it at the request of Abraham.

Throughout scripture we get the picture of an extremely Holy and Righteous God, who cannot tolerate sin - to the extent that someone reaching out to steady the Ark of the Covenant on an ox-cart so it (the Ark) will not fall off and be damaged, is killed instantly for disobeying a specific law; Ananias and Saphira in Acts drop dead the moment they admit their duplicity; all but Noah and his family are destroyed in the flood for their sinful behaviour. At the same time we get a picture of a God "slow to anger, and quick to show mercy." We see a God who does not wipe us out for our sins, but showers his mercy on us, gives us time to repent, sends the sun and the rain on the unrighteous as well as the righteous. On the other side, we see the evil one who is called the 'destroyer,' who wants nothing more than to kill and decieve, to humiliate and divide, to corrupt and maim. If Satan had his way, the whole world would be like Syria has been for seven years.

In this sense, God is protecting even the vast majority of unbelievers from the worst that Satan would do, as well as protecting them from the immediate anger and punishment that a Holy and Righteous God ought to mete out. Listen even to the doubters who accuse God of NOT stepping in and punishing those who commit atrocities, in effect accusing Him of protecting them from true and immediate justice. His purpose is of course to draw them to him - He does not wish any to perish; and He does not delight in the death of the wicked. I am forever grateful that He restrained Himself from punishing me (protecting me from his wrath as well as from all that Satan wanted to do to and in me) as and when I deserved it as a sinner; He showed mercy, and granted me forgiveness, waiting patiently and drawing me to His Son through whom I received grace and new life. Yes, in many ways I was protected before I was saved.

Psalm 130:3
If thou, O Lord, shouldst mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?

Psalm 103:10
He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor requite us according to our iniquities.

Job 42:7b-8 (God speaking to Eli′phaz the Te′manite)
“My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

 

[Emli]

We get a view of God very willing to defer from the annihilation of the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 18:22-33, and He was willing to do it at the request of Abraham.

Throughout scripture we get the picture of an extremely Holy and Righteous God, who cannot tolerate sin - to the extent that someone reaching out to steady the Ark of the Covenant on an ox-cart so it (the Ark) will not fall off and be damaged, is killed instantly for disobeying a specific law; Ananias and Saphira in Acts drop dead the moment they admit their duplicity; all but Noah and his family are destroyed in the flood for their sinful behaviour. At the same time we get a picture of a God "slow to anger, and quick to show mercy." We see a God who does not wipe us out for our sins, but showers his mercy on us, gives us time to repent, sends the sun and the rain on the unrighteous as well as the righteous. On the other side, we see the evil one who is called the 'destroyer,' who wants nothing more than to kill and decieve, to humiliate and divide, to corrupt and maim. If Satan had his way, the whole world would be like Syria has been for seven years.

In this sense, God is protecting even the vast majority of unbelievers from the worst that Satan would do, as well as protecting them from the immediate anger and punishment that a Holy and Righteous God ought to mete out. Listen even to the doubters who accuse God of NOT stepping in and punishing those who commit atrocities, in effect accusing Him of protecting them from true and immediate justice. His purpose is of course to draw them to him - He does not wish any to perish; and He does not delight in the death of the wicked. I am forever grateful that He restrained Himself from punishing me (protecting me from his wrath as well as from all that Satan wanted to do to and in me) as and when I deserved it as a sinner; He showed mercy, and granted me forgiveness, waiting patiently and drawing me to His Son through whom I received grace and new life. Yes, in many ways I was protected before I was saved.

Psalm 130:3
If thou, O Lord, shouldst mark iniquities, Lord, who could stand?

Psalm 103:10
He does not deal with us according to our sins, nor requite us according to our iniquities.

Job 42:7b-8 (God speaking to Eli′phaz the Te′manite)
“My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. Now therefore take seven bulls and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you, for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you according to your folly; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.”

Ezekiel 18:23
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live?

Ezekiel 33:11
Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live.

Yes, believers were protected before we were saved, while the Lord was drawing us in. That is what I wrote. I can give details from the times God saved my life before I got saved. But He still let me get hurt, He still let me become demonized, cursed and misled, and He would have sent me to Hell had I not accepted Christ and repented when He called me. God is a perfect and loving God, but He also executes punishment on the wicked, and the consequence of sin is death. In this life and eternally.

And yes, God is always, always working to save people from His wrath, not willing that anyone should perish. And He is merciful and patient. He even lets Satan exist still, because He is patient. Romans 9:22.

But that is not what I meant. The Blood of Christ covers us from God's wrath, if we believe in the Son and willingly give our lives to Him and obey His will. Holy Angels keep God's people from stumbling, and believers are sealed by the Holy Spirit of God. Nothing can harm us unless God allows it (or we allow it by sinning), and He does not allow Satan to roam freely in our lives. God opens our eyes and He leads us away from sin, and away from snares and warns us from stumbling blocks, so we don't fall. He keeps us from the evil one (except during trials). I feel His protection in my life, every step that I take. I did not have this protection as an unbeliever.

Unbelievers do not have the divine protection that believers do, because God's promises are not for them. That is what I meant. They are not covered by the Blood, and their sins are not forgiven, and they do not have access to God through prayer. God does not interefere with our free will, so He allows the sinners to live even though they do not love Him. And yes, God upholds the nations and keeps Satan from destroying the world. Because Satan is held in a tight lease. That is how God protects His entire Creation, because He loves the world and everyone in it. He is always in control over everything. But that is different from being protected personally in our lives, which only comes from believing in the Son. And when we do, we have access to God, and we can stand in confidence before His throne, because we are adopted into sonship, set apart as a peculiar people. We stop living according to the world, and we are called sons and daughters. These are not empty words, or symbolic. It's truth and what God has given us through His Son.