Stop calling all cops heroes: Baltimore police corruption case isn't shocking to me

[whatbogsends]

Well I guess if one feels most cops must be bad, then most christians must be bad also. Since we are just taking a smaller percentage of something bad and saying everything in that "group" is bad then.

There's a great gap between "almost all cops are good" and "most cops must be bad". Your assessment of the situation is entirely a false dichotomy.

 

[Landon Caeli]

It seems some people idolize police officers... They tried to get my generation to do that during the 80's when I was a youngster, where they introduced the "Officer Friendly" program to school children... That program was quickly abandoned and no longer exists.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

There's a great gap between "almost all cops are good" and "most cops must be bad". Your assessment of the situation is entirely a false dichotomy.

Well I see lots of people saying its wrong or what not but I don't see anyone posting numbers to show its wrong. Just one opinion saying another opinion is wrong "just 'cause". If most cops were bad, then police would not exist as it would be a corrupt system and no one would put up with it.

Though I imagine some cop haters are probably from the 70s since at the time many hippies were busy hating soldiers too.

 

[SummerMadness]

Well I see lots of people saying its wrong or what not but I don't see anyone posting numbers to show its wrong. Just one opinion saying another opinion is wrong "just 'cause". If most cops were bad, then police would not exist as it would be a corrupt system and no one would put up with it.

Though I imagine some cop haters are probably from the 70s since at the time many hippies were busy hating soldiers too.

You keep referring to an argument that no one made, "most cops are bad" is not an argument people in this thread are making.

 

[whatbogsends]

Well I see lots of people saying its wrong or what not but I don't see anyone posting numbers to show its wrong. Just one opinion saying another opinion is wrong "just 'cause". If most cops were bad, then police would not exist as it would be a corrupt system and no one would put up with it.

Though I imagine some cop haters are probably from the 70s since at the time many hippies were busy hating soldiers too.

Where are people saying "most cops are bad"? That's a strawman. People are saying "cops, like most professions are a mixed bag of good and bad", however, the problem people have is that the bad cops are being protected from repercussions of their bad actions. Corruption is covered up (like it is in most professions which carry power), and the bad cops continue to get away with their actions.

I've posted incidents in which 16 cops in Tulsa beat a guy for a parking violation, then proceeded to beat his brother who was videotaping the beating (videotaping was not illegal) and destroy the evidence (video from his camera), and then file a false police report. Luckily, another citizen also had a video of the incident (he wasn't seen by the cops), and this department wide corruption was exposed. From all of this, 2 officers lost their jobs, and none had criminal charges brought against them. All 16 of the involved officers should have lost their jobs, and the ones who actually did the evidence tampering should have been prosecuted.

There are plenty of other examples of corrupt/bad cops being exposed and not facing real consequences for their misdeeds. They have been posted on these forums, often to the refrain of "no cops can be bad" by posters such as yourself.

As to "no one would put up with it", the cops are generally smart enough to act out on the poor and powerless. Many put up with it because they don't think it will happen to them, and have demonized and dehumanized the victims of police, and justify police brutality with the logic "they're only doing this to those who deserve it".

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Well cops can be bad for sure. But some people just say all cops are bad because of the actions of the minority.

 

[mala]

Well cops can be bad for sure. But some people just say all cops are bad because of the actions of the minority.

you're the only one here who keeps saying it.

 

[mala]

Police corruption - Wikipedia

United States[edit]
Although not explicitly related to police corruption, a study identified 6,724 cases involving the arrests of 5,545 sworn officers across the nation between 2005 and 2011 for a variety of criminal acts.[207] That is, on average, police officers are getting arrested around 1,000 times per year. 41% of the total crimes were committed while the officers were on duty. A breakdown listed five main types of crimes:

sex-related police crime (1,475 arrest cases of 1,070 sworn officers)
alcohol-related police crime (1,405 arrest cases of 1,283 sworn officers)
drug-related police crime (739 arrest cases of 665 sworn officers)
violence-related police crime (3,328 arrest cases of 2,586 sworn officers)
profit-motivated police crime (1,592 cases of 1,396 officers)

and some further elaboration on that data.

Study finds police officers arrested 1,100 times per year, or 3 per day, nationwide

“Police crimes are not uncommon,” Stinson concluded. “Our data directly contradicts some of the prevailing assumptions and the proposition that only a small group of rotten apples perpetrate the vast majority of police crime.” Although nearly 60 percent of the crimes “occurred when the officer was technically off-duty,” Stinson wrote, “a significant portion of these so-called off-duty crimes also lies within the context of police work and the perpetrator’s role as a police officer, including instances where off-duty officers flash a badge, an official weapon, or otherwise use their power, authority, and the respect afforded to them as a means to commit crime.”

now that would be things they are actually arrested for. so in reality it's probably far greater than those numbers for things that aren't even found out.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

you're the only one here who keeps saying it.

Apparently you haven't read the responses where people keep saying cops are bad. Or where they essentially hint that most cops are bad.

 

[whatbogsends]

Well cops can be bad for sure. But some people just say all cops are bad because of the actions of the minority.

The people who say "all cops are bad" (hint, no one in this thread has said this) are outliers and not relevant to this discussion. No one here is saying or suggesting "all cops are bad". We are saying, is that bad cops are more than a "one bad apple" kind of thing, and that there is significant corruption within the police (that has been shown time and again in various investigations around the country, and proven by incidents in which large numbers of cops are engaged in bad behavior) and that corruption should be brought to light and remediated.

 

[SummerMadness]

The people who say "all cops are bad" (hint, no one in this thread has said this) are outliers and not relevant to this discussion. No one here is saying or suggesting "all cops are bad". We are saying, is that bad cops are more than a "one bad apple" kind of thing, and that there is significant corruption within the police (that has been shown time and again in various investigations around the country, and proven by incidents in which large numbers of cops are engaged in bad behavior) and that corruption should be brought to light and remediated.

Another thing to point out is that there will always be bad actors in a system, that is unavoidable, but what makes the system work is adequate checks/balances and reform when it is needed. Corrupt police officers cannot flourish unless they are protected by other officers. But if you look at some of the responses to police reform, you get push back and demands to maintain a status quo that allows abuse to continue. That is unacceptable, that is bad.

 

[SummerMadness]

An update.

Members of rogue Baltimore police unit found guilty of corruption charges

Two members of a rogue Baltimore police unit were found guilty Monday of corruption charges — a case that marred what was already a bleak period for the crime-plagued city.

The officers, Daniel Hersl and Marcus Taylor, were convicted by a federal jury of racketeering and robbery, part of a broader conspiracy among members of the police department's Gun Trace Task force that involved holding up drug dealers, conducting illegal searches, claiming unearned overtime and trying to cover up their crimes, authorities said.

Six other officers, including two who testified against Hersl and Taylor, have already pleaded guilty.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Well I see lots of people saying its wrong or what not but I don't see anyone posting numbers to show its wrong. Just one opinion saying another opinion is wrong "just 'cause". If most cops were bad, then police would not exist as it would be a corrupt system and no one would put up with it.

Though I imagine some cop haters are probably from the 70s since at the time many hippies were busy hating soldiers too.

If you want numbers, in this case we 're talking about 8 cops out of over 3000 in Baltimore. That's less than half of 1%. Hardly a systemic problem.

 

[iluvatar5150]

If you want numbers, in this case we 're talking about 8 cops out of over 3000 in Baltimore. That's less than half of 1%. Hardly a systemic problem.

That's just this year. According to Wikipedia's list of "notable incidents", which is hardly comprehensive, the department usually has at least a couple of felony convictions each year.

Baltimore Police Department - Wikipedia

If a couple get convicted and mentioned on wikipedia, how many more do you think wikipedia missed and/or weren't prosecuted?

 

[Ana the Ist]

That's just this year. According to Wikipedia's list of "notable incidents", which is hardly comprehensive, the department usually has at least a couple of felony convictions each year.

Baltimore Police Department - Wikipedia

If a couple get convicted and mentioned on wikipedia, how many more do you think wikipedia missed and/or weren't prosecuted?

Even if we tripled the number of corrupt cops in these cases...It wouldn't equal 1%. I'm sure that I don't have to point out that "felony conviction" doesn't equate to corruption in every instance...you're bright, so I'm sure you already know that.

I think it's great they've managed to find and prosecute as many of these dirty cops as they have....but it does make me wonder. It's entirely possible that the problem is they keep hiring men from Baltimore. In a city that overwhelmed with systemic criminality, even a man with a clean record probably has a high chance of having engaged in some crimes prior to being hired...or at least has criminal friends or associates. A few cops may be bad apples...but all criminals are.

 

[NothingIsImpossible]

Even if we tripled the number of corrupt cops in these cases...It wouldn't equal 1%. I'm sure that I don't have to point out that "felony conviction" doesn't equate to corruption in every instance...you're bright, so I'm sure you already know that.

I think it's great they've managed to find and prosecute as many of these dirty cops as they have....but it does make me wonder. It's entirely possible that the problem is they keep hiring men from Baltimore. In a city that overwhelmed with systemic criminality, even a man with a clean record probably has a high chance of having engaged in some crimes prior to being hired...or at least has criminal friends or associates. A few cops may be bad apples...but all criminals are.

Exactly! Thank you. Good to know a few see this from the logical point of view of its tiny amount overall. Especially if you look at a nationwide amount of bad cops. And if people really wanted to make a big deal of it, people should look at many middle eastern, asian, african, south american....etc countries. Corruption among cops is mind boggling there. Like Brazil where "The state accounted for the second highest number of people reporting military police extortion, at 18.2 percent, and the highest percentage of civil police extortion victims, at 28.6 percent."

 

[SummerMadness]

That's just this year. According to Wikipedia's list of "notable incidents", which is hardly comprehensive, the department usually has at least a couple of felony convictions each year.

Baltimore Police Department - Wikipedia

If a couple get convicted and mentioned on wikipedia, how many more do you think wikipedia missed and/or weren't prosecuted?

A lot, simply look at the DOJ report on the Baltimore City Police Department. In many of these investigations, police misconduct goes uninvestigated or even if wrongdoing is found, it is unpunished. But it is simply intellectual dishonesty to argue that the only wrongdoing committed by police can be defined by convictions when we know for a fact that a lack of accountability is a major issue.

 

[FireDragon76]

What I learned in psychology is whatever mindset you choose to accept about an issue, it will determine how you see the world. Even if the world is not how you think it is. You will notice all the negative things that happen according to the belief you hold, but you will not notice all the positive things that outweigh the negatives (or vica versa).

Which is true. In the case of a certain subject that is presented on here, the negative stuff is always brought up. But I never see certain people post about the positive stuff that heavily outweighs it. Which to me a lack of being able to have a honest and unbiased view on certain subjects. So when I see certain subjects I just laugh because I know they are the minority. Almost all cops are good. That is fact.

I'd say I'd read the article but as I said, the more one reads negative things, the more they reenforce their beliefs about that subject and lose sight of what is true or not. Though from the headline I do know certain cities have a bigger issues with their cops then others.

Not even Polyanna can put a silver lining on cops acting like organized crime.

 

[iluvatar5150]

Even if we tripled the number of corrupt cops in these cases...It wouldn't equal 1%. I'm sure that I don't have to point out that "felony conviction" doesn't equate to corruption in every instance...you're bright, so I'm sure you already know that.

No, it doesn't necessarily equate to corruption, but it does point to a problem with criminality at the very least.

But while 1% crime rate may be low for an entire municipality (and 0.1% might be ultra low), it's pretty stinking high for what ought to be a professional workforce. I commented in another thread that I've worked at a company that had ~3,000 employees, and if that many had been busted for serious felonies every year (with many times more likely being guilty of lesser offenses), corporate HR would have lost their minds.

Even now that I work for a firm only a fraction of that size, if we had criminality rates that high, the office would be a cesspool.

I think it's great they've managed to find and prosecute as many of these dirty cops as they have....but it does make me wonder. It's entirely possible that the problem is they keep hiring men from Baltimore. In a city that overwhelmed with systemic criminality, even a man with a clean record probably has a high chance of having engaged in some crimes prior to being hired...or at least has criminal friends or associates. A few cops may be bad apples...but all criminals are.

That may very well be true.

 

[Ana the Ist]

No, it doesn't necessarily equate to corruption, but it does point to a problem with criminality at the very least.

But while 1% crime rate may be low for an entire municipality (and 0.1% might be ultra low), it's pretty stinking high for what ought to be a professional workforce. I commented in another thread that I've worked at a company that had ~3,000 employees, and if that many had been busted for serious felonies every year (with many times more likely being guilty of lesser offenses), corporate HR would have lost their minds.

Even now that I work for a firm only a fraction of that size, if we had criminality rates that high, the office would be a cesspool.



That may very well be true.

I totally get what you're saying...but I think you also gotta consider what it is they do. I wouldn't expect your average corporate office worker to be selling drugs to dealers...their opportunities are more like "stealing the stapler." When your assembly line is justice, the stakes are automatically higher.

I wonder how much these cops make? One tends to engage in risky for profit behavior when they're adequately paid for the job they're tasked with.