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Still waiting for the doctrine

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Ark Guy

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Regardless, I have presented both the Scriptural and analytical bases for the concept I *am* presenting: that there were other humans which existed at the time of the murder that were NOT Adam's descendents, and for the possibility (among many) that Adam was the first among humans who was brought into a special relationship with God (and given a soul).

Please present your doctrine.
In your doctrine you'll need to show why Adam...who was among the first humans...was created from the dust and called the first man.

Of course if Adam was already a human...then why create him from the dust if he already existed?

As far as the other humans that were not Adams descendents....you'll need some biblical support. Are they mentioned in the New Testament? How about in other portions of the Old Testament?

Present you doctrine for us with scriptural support.
 

Vance

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Well, please read that post again. My concept (I would not call it a doctrine, since I don't present it as something that must be true, only a strong possibility) is that:

1. There were others alive at the time of the murder.
2. That these others were not descendents of Adam and Eve.

That is all, really, and I have set forth the Scriptures and analytical support for those over and over and over again.

Now, as for the rest, again, this is only one possibility among many and I have provided the basis for that concept as well. If you look at my possibilities presented in the Cain thread, you will see that it is just one of a few (and really one of many more than that). So, I am not sure why you are so hung up on this one in particular. But, regardless, addressing your specific questions:

1. The reference to creating Adam from the dust of the ground could refer to his developing through evolution. Or, it could refer to a special creation of a single man even when there were other H. Sapiens living at the time (via evolution). Or, he could very well have been created from the physical dust as a special creation, but then God created *other* H. sapiens via special creation. A lot of possibilities there to explain how the others that we read about in the Cain story got there.

2. As I just explained, it may not be that he already existed.

3. Why *would* they be mentioned in the New Testament? I am fairly sure there is a LOT of stuff that happened in human history that is not discussed in the NT. As for the OT, I believe they are mentioned, of course, in the Cain story.
 
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Ark Guy

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Vance, there are all kinds of possibility...but you don't biblically support them.

The possibility that the others were aliens dropped off from a UFO is just as feasable as your other scenarion.

One major problem you have not overcome is in claiming that you have the simple reading of the text...yet if you did it would then be a popular scenario...maybe even doctrine. but as you see it isn't. My doctrine is the popular one. Why? because it is the simple reading and no gymnastics is needed for it to work unlike your concept.
 
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Vance

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Are you really setting up "popularity" as the arbiter of truth as a doctrine?

Are you Catholic? I would have to say that their doctrines are the most popular on Earth even today.

No, your doctrine (and that is the problem, it actually *is* doctrine for you) is based solely on the NEED for the doctrine to be correct in order to fit your other readings.

But here is what it comes down to:

Yes, absolutely, the account of Adam being made as a special creation is, indeed, the plainest simplest reading. There is no doubt about that. And it might very well be true. If read alone, without bringing in any other "context", whether it be other Scripture, our knowledge from our study of the natural world, etc, there is no doubt that the simple reading would be that Adam was a special creation, and the first human being created on this Earth.

But, it is equally true that the conclusion that there were other people on the Earth at the time of the murder that were not Adam's descendents is also the plainest, simplest reading of the text of the Cain story. Again, if read alone, without any other "context" to control the interpretation, NOBODY reading the text would conclude that Cain married his sister, but instead would be positive that there were others not of Adam's descent alive at the time. I think you would have to agree with this statement. Read on its own, that is what you would get.

This means that your interpretation that Cain married his sister is based primarily on what it says earlier in Genesis. It is NOT based on a plain reading of the text on its own, but is based on the text *as informed by other evidence*.

And you know what? This is good. This is exactly what you are supposed to do: you should NOT look at Scripture in isolation of the rest of the evidence at your disposal. You are choosing NOT to take the plain reading of one text because of the evidence found elsewhere which you believe requires a non-plain reading and there is a way you can find to reconcile the two (in this case, the other evidence is the earlier Genesis text which you interpret to read that Adam was the first and only man created and that Eve was the physical mother of all who ever lived).

And guess what, I am with you in this method: I read the Creation accounts and try to interpret them. But I realize that a reading confined to the first word to the last period of those texts might lead me to a false conclusion (just like you believe that limiting yourself to the confined text of the Cain story would lead to error). So, I look at the other evidence available to me to clarify exactly what is meant in those verses, even if it means NOT taking the simplest, plainest reading (just as you do with the Cain story). I look to God's Creation, His other record of what happened, and consider how this clarifies the text for me. Then I look to see if maybe I have been interpreting the text wrongly and if there is another interpretation which squares with this additional evidence. And there is, it all fits.

In particular with the Cain and Adam stories, I do exactly the same as you, just backwards. Rather than read the Adam story and twist around the Cain story to fit my conclusions from the Adam creation account, I read the Cain account as much more plain than the Adam account. So, I start with the idea that there are these other humans around and then go *back* to the Adam creation stories and see if it absolutely requires the conclusion that none others could be living. I conclude that there could, indeed, have been others living.

Personally, I believe that Adam was a special creation, made whole and mature for a special purpose. Although there are a LOT of symbolic possibilities, I don't see any reason not to believe this literally. And, following my prediliction to start with the literal, I read the Cain story in the most literal way: that there were others living at the time.

Now, can both of these be true? Sure, God could have done it a lot of different ways, but didn't bother telling us everything that happened in His creation. Why does God tell us some things and not others? I have no idea.
 
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lucaspa

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Ark Guy said:
Vance, there are all kinds of possibility...but you don't biblically support them.
Ark Guy, he did. There is Genesis 4:13. By a literal reading, at the time there are 3 people on the earth: Adam, Eve, and Cain. Cain has just murdered the 4th, Abel. So, when Cain is afraid that "anyone who finds me will kill me" just who is he talking about? His parents? Let's not be silly. Cain is afraid of other people killing him. Also, God replies in verse 14: "If anyone kills you, seven lives will be taken in revenge". That makes no sense if Adam and Eve are the only other people. What seven? How can God take seven lives if there are only 2 people total other than Cain on the earth?

Then there is verse 17 where Cain "and his wife had a son". Where did the wife come from?

In order to get more people, you have to make a very twisted, non-literal reading of the text in that Adam and Eve had a lot of kids at the time, including daughters. Then Cain is supposed to have married a sister. Do you seriously think that any sister is going to marry the murderer of their brother?

Vance is not the first person to come up with this idea of other people being present.
http://www.endtimeprophecy.net/~tttbbs/EPN-1/Articles/Articles-Cont/cainwife.html
http://www.aaronc.com/cainwife.html
http://storydynamics.com/Articles/Storytelling_Concepts/midrash.html

My doctrine is the popular one. Why? because it is the simple reading and no gymnastics is needed for it to work unlike your concept.
Popularity doesn't ensure accuracy. The popular doctrine among Jesus' fellow Jews was that he was not the Messiah. Jesus didn't fulfill the simple readings of what the Messiah was. In that case, the simple reading doesn't work, does it?

Nor do you accept the simple reading for passages showing a flat or immovable earth.

However, in this case your "simple" reading isn't. It has to make gaps in the narrative in order to insert many children between Abel and Seth so that there are adult sisters or nieces for Cain to marry.

You simply aren't consistent, Ark Guy. Vance has done a good job of pointing that out.
 
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