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Steve Anderson, Predestination, and the "Nations" Interpretation of Romans 9

abacabb3

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Yes, he hardened Pharaoh. But that doesn't mean he was chosen for damnation before the foundation of the world:

* Before he was hardened, Pharaoh already showed that he was opposed to God's people. So there's nothing leading us to believe that this decision was independent of Pharaoh's actions.

* The hardening referred to his decision on how to treat Israel, not matters related to his own salvation.

The Scripture in Rom 9-11 makes clear that God planned to bring a hardening to ethnic Israel specifically so that all of the true Israel would be saved. If that does not make explicit that God ordained men not to believe, and being that this is God we are talking about He is fully aware that the result of this is damnation, the conclusion is unavoidable. Double predestination is clearly endorsed. Because "God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all" (Rom 11:32), there is no one who is obedient and would not deserve hardening as a punishment.

God may show mercy to all. Key word is "may." He is not compelled to. God will have believers of every nation and tongue as part of the Israel of God. But not every man is predestined to salvation and will thereby be shown mercy beyond the general mercies that God provides all men, providing their food and such.
 
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hedrick

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The Scripture in Rom 9-11 makes clear that God planned to bring a hardening to ethnic Israel specifically so that all of the true Israel would be saved. If that does not make explicit that God ordained men not to believe, and being that this is God we are talking about He is fully aware that the result of this is damnation, the conclusion is unavoidable. Double predestination is clearly endorsed. Because "God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all" (Rom 11:32), there is no one who is obedient and would not deserve hardening as a punishment.

I feel like we’re going in circles. Of course God hardened (most of) ethnic Israel. But it was, as you say, so Gentiles would be saved. That is, like election, this hardening is for a specific purpose. It’s not God determining to damn them, but rather to hold salvation to provide an option for Gentiles. That it’s not a final decision about them is clear from Rom 11:11 on. They stumbled, but not so as to fall. They may still return (11:23), as the Gentiles who were elect will be removed if they fail.

That final salvation and damnation is part of God's plan I don't doubt. But that's not the subject of Romans, and indeed it's very rare anywhere in Scripture.
 
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abacabb3

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I feel like we’re going in circles. Of course God hardened (most of) ethnic Israel. But it was, as you say, so Gentiles would be saved. That is, like election, this hardening is for a specific purpose. It’s not God determining to damn them, but rather to hold salvation to provide an option for Gentiles.

Honest question, why do you insist upon differentiating between God knowingly damning a group of people (who do not deserve grace by the way, because no one does), and God "[with]hold[ing] salvation" from them in order to "provide an option for Gentiles?"

There clearly is no difference between the two for all practical purposes. God is aware of the implications.

That it’s not a final decision about them is clear from Rom 11:11 on. They stumbled, but not so as to fall. They may still return (11:23), as the Gentiles who were elect will be removed if they fail.

From what I understand, there are several theological schools that would argue that there will be a mass conversion of Israel at some point in the future. These verses imay be in reference to this. Hence, most people would not agree that these verses communicate some sort of mysterious dithering in God as to whether He will out of nowhere start being increasingly gracious to Israel and nothe the gentiles, and then it will swing back the other way, and then it swings back again in favor of Israel, etc.

I personally do not hold to such explanations. Rom 11:25-26 seems to solve it for us:

...or I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery—so that you will not be wise in your own estimation—that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; and so all Israel will be saved...

God has not hardened the entire nation of Israel. There remain to this day Jewish converts to Christianity. However, it is far from the norm and there has never been the success of converting the vast majority of Jews to their ancestral religion on the scale of let's say Canadians or even Burmese.

The image of the tree and its branches in Rom 11 apears to show that God is not operating in a black and white sense, letting all Jews be damned and daving all gentiles. We know this is not the case. Hence, God has removed branches (i.e. Jewish individuals) and has taken wild olive shoots (individual gentiles) and put them in their place, in effect when the last day occurs finishing His work on the tree having chosen every branch that belongs to it.

Any warnings of being "torn off" are for all intents and purposes a practical warning that is found in several other parts of the Scripture, such as Phil 2:12 ("work out your salvation in fear and trembling"), 1 Cor 10:12 ("take heed yest ye fall"), and etc. It does not abrogate predestination, but it certainly informs us of the serious attitude we should be adopting as Christians pertaining our salvation. We should be guarding it jealously.

That final salvation and damnation is part of God's plan I don't doubt. But that's not the subject of Romans, and indeed it's very rare anywhere in Scripture.

Just because the topic is not necessarily the main subject of the passage, it does not mean it isn't taught to the passage. Me thinks you are too wedded to NT Wright on this and it is forcing you to hold a position you see in the bold above. In is not a sensible differentiation between the position you hold and its supposed counterweight. They are the same thing.
 
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hedrick

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Honest question, why do you insist upon differentiating between God knowingly damning a group of people (who do not deserve grace by the way, because no one does), and God "[with]hold[ing] salvation" from them in order to "provide an option for Gentiles?"

One is permanent, the other at least possibly temporary.
 
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abacabb3

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One is permanent, the other at least possibly temporary.

Not really. God's decision is made before anyone is born (Rom 9, remember Jaboc and Esau are fathers of two different nations). So, He knew before X Jews were born that He was going to harden the nation, and before Y Jews were born God was going to bring in "all of Israel," perhaps. There is no difference whatsoever. This is why Paul anticipates the objection, "For who can resist His will?" Paul's response is you can't and that there is nothing unfair about it.

So, your differentiation is semantic and I think you are trying to infer differences that clearly do not exist.
 
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I think Hedrick is just studying the issue a bit deeper. He's just pointing out that maybe God wasn't like..

This one goes to hell, this one to glory, glory for this one, heaven for this one....this is taking a while, let start doing it by every 1000 people....this group glory, this group damnation...ahh. this is much easier.

hedrick makes it sound like God has more of a plan when he was doing whatever he was doing.
 
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