Stephen Fry - asked What He Would Say If He Met God

[ebia]

Does anyone here really think that children suffering is a good thing if God does it?

(except Inkfinger, who thinks its a good thing when people do it but hasn't yet joined this thread)

 

[ianb321red]

True. But special pleading for your chosen deity cuts even less mustard. The argument from Danny appears to be "God has a different moral barometer to humans." There is no evidence for that and no reason to believe it other than convenience.

The idea of a moral compass by the way makes virtually no sense in a godless universe.

Obviously there is no evidence for this. Both Danny and myself believe that God is what our moral compass points to (or not), and we also believe that the god of the bible exists in this universe - so this explains how we see things.

The evidence would have to be via 2 control groups - one living in this universe and one living in a godless universe - and conduct an experiment thus...

 

[ianb321red]

But "godidit", no longer a satisfactory explanation for lightning, suddenly is a satisfactory explanation for morality again?

Because it is biblical - for example Romans chapter 2 where Paul writes about having the law being written in to peoples hearts, and that some people naturally obey this...

And God is still a perfectly valid for explaining lightning by the way..

 

[ebia]

Because it is biblical - for example Romans chapter 2 where Paul writes about having the law being written in to peoples hearts, and that some people naturally obey this...

And God is still a perfectly valid for explaining lightning by the way..

I haven't seen the argument "lightening, therefore God exists" lately.

 

[MorkandMindy]

...

The evidence would have to be via 2 control groups - one living in this universe and one living in a godless universe - and conduct an experiment thus...

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then He is not omnipotent.
Is He able, but not willing? Then He is malevolent.
Is He both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is He neither able nor willing? Then why call Him God?

Epicurus (c. 341 - c. 270 BC)

As Epicurus explained 2,300 years ago, we do not live in a universe with an all powerful caring god.

It is something we all would like to ignore if we could. Consider the multitudes who after being bombed in Hiroshima went around dying, walking with their arms in front of them and dying, saying 'there is no god'. The same had happened in WWI and elsewhere in WWII, most of the Jews who survived the holocaust came out as non believers.

It is perfectly reasonable to say that god did not cause the suffering, but human experience does show that a god who is omnipotent and empathetic does not exist. Fortunately there are plenty of other possibilities for a divine being.

You won't find atheists quoting Epicurus from heart because it is something we don't like to think about either.

 

[MorkandMindy]

Yes - this is a good example of the sound reasoning and rationality that atheism is famous for.

Based on this evidence, Atheism is the equivalent of getting annoyed with kids that still believe in Father Christmas...

Your sarcastic and then ridiculing post suggests you have no interest in why people come believe what we believe, but for others who might read these posts here goes:


I had been an atheist over two decades when I started attending a local church in England because they were helping people to get through the difficulties of life, and were doing the best they could.

I suspect from the range of people I've met that a lot, possibly a majority of the clergy, understand that atheism is a position that is reasonable to take, though not one many people would like to take.

The real discussion has been over which is more beneficial - Christianity or atheism, and of course which type of Christianity and which type of atheism.

I like and respect good Christians, and feel challenged by some of the statements that come from the pulpit and I'm fairly confident that we have both learned from each other.
.
.

 

[Bungle_Bear]

The idea of a moral compass by the way makes virtually no sense in a godless universe.

Obviously there is no evidence for this. Both Danny and myself believe that God is what our moral compass points to (or not), and we also believe that the god of the bible exists in this universe - so this explains how we see things.

You believe God made everything. You also believe God gave you your moral code. So, unless God pulled a fast one and for some inexplicable reason gave us a different morality to his own, do you not see that it is absurd to ask "who are you to judge God according to your own (God given) moral barometer"? This is where the special pleading comes in - either God shares the same moral code, in which case it is perfectly acceptable to judge God by that code, or God has a different moral code so we cannot judge Him. The latter makes no sense other than being a convenient way to explain away the inexplicable.

 

[Robban]

Recent clip of Stephen Fry's reaction when asked what he would say if he met God (assumed Judeo Christian variant..)

Anyone seen it?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-suvkwNYSQo

I watched the clip, I have no idea who he, not unusual there are many names that pop up here that I have never Heard Before,

wondering where the idea came from that we will meet and chat with the almighty, in all His glory and radiance,
seems to be like we will ascend to the heavens just as we are, does any one think that we in our human condition would be able to withstand His radiance?

Now is the time to communicate, as long as there is breath in the nose.

David asked, "Can the dead praise You from the grave?"

 

[Danny777]

You believe God made everything. You also believe God gave you your moral code. So, unless God pulled a fast one and for some inexplicable reason gave us a different morality to his own, do you not see that it is absurd to ask "who are you to judge God according to your own (God given) moral barometer"? This is where the special pleading comes in - either God shares the same moral code, in which case it is perfectly acceptable to judge God by that code, or God has a different moral code so we cannot judge Him. The latter makes no sense other than being a convenient way to explain away the inexplicable.

That is not what I'm saying. God DID make everything but Stephen Fry does not believe in God, therefore is clearly not living by God's moral code. We have complete freedom to choose whether or not to follow Jesus' moral code - we are not forced to - this is called freewill and it's very fair.

Are you saying God (if He existed) should have created a world where evil was not possible in order to be moral? (whatever morals means...)

 

[ianb321red]

I haven't seen the argument "lightening, therefore God exists" lately.

So you don't believe that God is omnipotent then?

There are numerous examples in YOUR bible that show that God can control natural phenomena such as the weather....

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

Maybe at the end of the day is it actually humans who cause cancer by the way we eat, Earth, technology. It's it our freewill be well free and not be robots for god. Maybe a part of this is what we do does have cause and affect....

And I don't get then how God can stop that ?

I don't think God wants too see anyone suffer.... And since Stephen doesn't know God then he doesn't understand this...

 

[ebia]

So you don't believe that God is omnipotent then?

There are numerous examples in YOUR bible that show that God can control natural phenomena such as the weather....

That's off the point.

 

[ebia]

Maybe at the end of the day is it actually humans who cause cancer by the way we eat, Earth, technology. It's it our freewill be well free and not be robots for god. Maybe a part of this is what we do does have cause and affect....

And I don't get then how God can stop that ?

I don't think God wants too see anyone suffer.... And since Stephen doesn't know God then he doesn't understand this...

It's a bit hard to see, however, how exactly human behaviour could cause, say, the Boxing Day Tsunami.

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

It's a bit hard to see, however, how exactly human behaviour could cause, say, the Boxing Day Tsunami.

Global warming, the amount abuse on the sea by new types of fishes since 150 million different fish spieces are caught in the 75 mile line at every catch are they doing some damage ? .......

Am not saying that is the actually cause...

But something must have caused it or are you saying God caused it ?

 

[ianb321red]

You believe God made everything. You also believe God gave you your moral code. So, unless God pulled a fast one and for some inexplicable reason gave us a different morality to his own, do you not see that it is absurd to ask "who are you to judge God according to your own (God given) moral barometer"? This is where the special pleading comes in - either God shares the same moral code, in which case it is perfectly acceptable to judge God by that code, or God has a different moral code so we cannot judge Him. The latter makes no sense other than being a convenient way to explain away the inexplicable.

This is simply a false dichotomy - as Danny has explained in his post.
We are talking about someone who has rejected/ dismissed God - and god - and therefore any god-given moral code. Your 2 options above are both on the presumption and acceptance that God does exist.

So my question again is - who or what exactly is Stephen Fry aiming his tirade at?

Is it at a God Fry says he doesn't actually believe in? If it is, then why would you go on this moralistic rant towards an entity that you firmly believe has no rational basis for existing?

Or is it at the IDEA of the Christian God existing and the subsequent beliefs that people have of this god? But again, this is clearly bonkers - Fry see's God as a fictional character, so it's a bit like me having a rant on here about the horrendous atrocities caused by Darth Vader in Star Wars films....

The truth of the matter is that Fry's reaction is because deep down he is resisting what he knows is true - as Paul writes in Romans 1 - this is the real explanation:

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.

 

[ebia]

Global warming, the amount abuse on the sea by new types of fishes since 150 million different fish spieces are caught in the 75 mile line at every catch are they doing some damage ? .......

Am not saying that is the actually cause...

But something must have caused it or are you saying God caused it ?

A movement in the tectonic plate. Same as an earthquake.
Earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis,... are inherent to the way the planet is constructed. They've been going on for far far longer than we have existed.

 

[TheGirlOnFire]

A movement in the tectonic plate. Same as an earthquake.
Earthquakes, volcanos, tsunamis,... are inherent to the way the planet is constructed. They've been going on for far far longer than we have existed.

I know that but what is making the movement to be so strong that it is causing it, something it.. Nothing is by chance or i don't believe it is.

Yes but something has always been here even far far longer than we have existed.......

 

[Liberasit]

I'm always amused who someone has a rant at a God they don't believe in.

 

[ebia]

I know that but what is making the movement to be so strong that it is causing it, something it..

That's what techtonic plates do. They don't slide smoothly over each other; the pressure to move builds up until something shifts in a jerk.

 

[ebia]

I'm always amused who someone has a rant at a God they don't believe in.

He was asked the question.