statuettes.... Error?!?

[thereselittleflower]

This room is getting crowded!


.

 

[Dragons87]

This room is getting crowded!


.

And things are coming to a head as well - as usual. I'm leaving.

 

[Benedicta00]

Exodus 20

This refers to astrology signs and the occult, which the Church is very much against. it is the practice of the occult that puts faith in horoscopes and astrology, ie false gods.


This is not referring to pictures and statues of actual people who lived.

Bowing is not so much literal either- one bows when they give credence to such things, like astrology. We do not give creedence to the siants.

Our faith is in God- and we worship him alone, why don't you believe us?

What is wrong here that you keep doubting us?

We are being straight up with you.

 

[Tyndale]

Then you have no valid argument or basis for one.


.

Listen friend, I don't argue against God's word. I try my best to obey it.

There's probably many people like you who are fully aware and consious that when they bow to a graven image this is not their God and will never be. However many, many people do not see it this way. You can add all the spin you like, but I've seen growm men and women praying, crying and offering items to these scultures as if the person they were modeled on was somehow in them or around them. It seems you are aware of the very fine line not to cross, but these statues, images are the start of a very dangerous practice in honouring God.

God Bless you and look after you!

 

[IamAdopted]

Repeating a fallacy does not make the fallacy true . .

This is Gods word and it is infallable.. It is men whom have twisted it to mean what they want it to mean where the fallacy comes into play.

 

[Dragons87]

Our faith is in God- and we worship him alone

DING! DING! DING! DING! DING!

Case settled. Let's move on and come back until another Protestant forgets.

 

[thereselittleflower]

I don't give a penny what your motives are.

Hmmm .. .

Previously stated by Dragon87 to TLF:

By what motive do you bow to a most beautifully carved marble statue . . .
​

Hmmmmm . . . . .


Could have fooled me!


.

 

[IamAdopted]

This refers to astrology signs and the occult, which the Church is very much against. it is the practice of the occult that puts faith in horoscopes and astrology, ie false gods.


This is not referring to pictures and statues of actual people who lived.

Bowing is not so much literal either- one bows when they give credence to such things, like astrology. We do not give creedence to the siants.

Our faith is in God- and we worship him alone, why don't you believe us?

What is wrong here that you keep doubting us?

We are being straight up with you.

where do you get this about astology? That is covered in Deueteronomy..

 

[thereselittleflower]

This is Gods word and it is infallable.. It is men whom have twisted it to mean what they want it to mean where the fallacy comes into play.

I agree .. you are providing an excellent example of this in your posts!


.

 

[Dragons87]

Hmmm .. .

Previously stated by Dragon87 to TLF:

By what motive do you bow to a most beautifully carved marble statue . . .
​

Hmmmmm . . . . .


Could have fooled me!


.

Do you make it a habit to read the first half of the sentence and then ignore the second?

Read it again.

I said:

" So. By what motive do you bow to a most beautifully carved marble statue which, nowadays, is probably carved for a monetary profit, or machine-made in some sweatshop in a developing country, is up to you to decide and justify to God alone."

Try reading the bold bit. It might help. Notice it wasn't a question (i.e. not ended with a question mark), but a statement (ended with a fullstop).


Good grief.

 

[Trento]

Some people here are under the impression that the word worship means to bow and to kneel and sing and to pray and that is the extent of the meaning of worship. You have fallen into the ancient pagan trap of believing that such simple gestures requiring little or no effort constitutes worship. Thus you accuse Catholics ,who venerate statues and images with simple gestures, of idolatry. And you think that praying to a saint is worshipping the dead. You have no idea of the true meaning of worship.
Let?s first examine these simple gestures. When a performer bows to his audience, is he worshipping them? When a dancer courtseys, does she worship her partner? When the oriental gentleman bows in greeting, does he worship his guest? Of course not, none of these things are worship. The same holds true for asking for someone to pray for you, whether they are alive or in heaven.
Now let?s examine worship. It begins: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" (Matt 22:36). Is what we call bowing and kneeling and praying such a wonderful thing as to constitute fulfillment of this commandment? Hardly! What if you were to lay down your life for your friends? Isn't that so much more than bowing and kneeling and praying?
Does it mean that you love your friends more than God? Technically, yes, and we all know why too. Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). There, you have just placed love for your friends above love of God, because laying down your life is far greater that simple kneeling and bowing and praying. But you may protest, we are commanded to love our neighbor as well, and rightly so, for it is indeed the second command. Well, what all this means is that love is the foundation of worship. You cannot worship God without loving him and you cannot love him without loving others. I?ll go one better; in order to love God one must love others. This is worship; it is dependent on love, and love of God is dependent on love of others.
The scripture tells us (1 John 4:20) "If anyone says, 'I love God' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." So what difference does it make if we love someone who is alive as opposed to someone who is dead. If you gaze at a photograph of your loved one, alive or dead, out of love, is God offended? If you kiss the photograph, is he offended? But if you kneel before the photograph, suddenly he becomes offended? Of course not, he said so himself: (Matt 25:40) Truly I say to you, as you did to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.
So no matter how much you kneel and bow and pray, God is not going to be impressed with these simple motions, without consideration of love. He reads what is in your heart, and not the words coming off your lips. He measures your worship by how much you love him, and he gauges how much you love him by how much you love others. So God is pleased when we honor others especially his holy ones, the saints. When it comes to veneration of saints through their images just remember, "as you did to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."
The church has always taught that kneeling and bowing and other forms of reverence are merely outward signs of our interior devotion.

 

[Benedicta00]

where do you get this about astology? That is covered in Deueteronomy..

Umm, do not make images of the air, water, earth.. how much do you know about astrology signs?

 

[IamAdopted]

You may be straight up with you but so are we being straight up with you.. God said don't do it.. We take Gods word seriously.. For we are called to be sons of GOD through Christ.. We take His word as the stand for which we uphold the truth.. Jesus asked.. Why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say... This is an important saying.. IF we are to make Christ our Lord we are to adhere to what He says in His word.

 

[IamAdopted]

Umm, do not make images of the air, water, earth.. how much do you know about astrology signs?

Air? Where is air talked about? Heavens.. Now that is where Jesus is.. And the saints that went to be with the Lord..

 

[Dragons87]

True what Trento says, though. You can kneel before a statue, kiss its feet repeatedly, rub it with oil every day, say prayers to it, see miracles come out of it, even cuddle it to bed if you wanted.

But you wouldn't be worshipping the statue because you simply are not worshipping it.

It sounds ridiculous, but it's true.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Hi. Aren't the funds made off the selling by the CC statuettes used to help out the poor and needy?
Private Merchants must make a pretty hefty profit off the sales of those also.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Listen friend, I don't argue against God's word. I try my best to obey it.

I understand it is not your intent to argue against God's word, however, prsistantly misapplying it is essentially the same thing, isn't it?

I am just trying to help you understand how you are misapplying it here in this circumstance. That's all.

There's probably many people like you who are fully aware and consious that when they bow to a graven image this is not their God and will never be. However many, many people do not see it this way.

How do you know this? Can you see into their hearts and see what their motives are? Is that not God's pervue and His pervue alone?

You can add all the spin you like, but I've seen growm men and women praying, crying and offering items to these scultures as if the person they were modeled on was somehow in them or around them.

And? Should Christinas judge on mere appearances?

We of all people should know that God never judges our actions without first examining our hearts.

If we know that, then why would we presume we can judge the actions of another without examining their heart?

Can you examine the heart of another?

Of course not.

Then by what right do you or does anyone have to judge the intents of another's heart simply by what they see?

Is that not the same as being judgemental?


What I am trying to help you see is you can't possibly know what is really going on because you can't see into their heart.

It seems you are aware of the very fine line not to cross, but these statues, images are the start of a very dangerous practice in honouring God.

God Bless you and look after you!

I used to think so . . but I have found just the opposite to be true . . and not just for myself, but for everyone I have ever met how honors such statues in Catholicism.


I have never met ONE person who ever had any difficulty with distinguishing between right and wrong use of these objects when it comes to the concept of worship. . . All are very congnizant of the difference. .


I believe you are worried needlessly . . . at least within Catholicism.

If course, I can't speak for how others outside of Catholicism make use of our images . . but that is a different issue altogether .


.

 

[IamAdopted]

Some people here are under the impression that the word worship means to bow and to kneel and sing and to pray and that is the extent of the meaning of worship. You have fallen into the ancient pagan trap of believing that such simple gestures requiring little or no effort constitutes worship. Thus you accuse Catholics ,who venerate statues and images with simple gestures, of idolatry. And you think that praying to a saint is worshipping the dead. You have no idea of the true meaning of worship.
Let?s first examine these simple gestures. When a performer bows to his audience, is he worshipping them? When a dancer courtseys, does she worship her partner? When the oriental gentleman bows in greeting, does he worship his guest? Of course not, none of these things are worship. The same holds true for asking for someone to pray for you, whether they are alive or in heaven.
Now let?s examine worship. It begins: "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind" (Matt 22:36). Is what we call bowing and kneeling and praying such a wonderful thing as to constitute fulfillment of this commandment? Hardly! What if you were to lay down your life for your friends? Isn't that so much more than bowing and kneeling and praying?
Does it mean that you love your friends more than God? Technically, yes, and we all know why too. Jesus said, "Greater love has no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends" (John 15:13). There, you have just placed love for your friends above love of God, because laying down your life is far greater that simple kneeling and bowing and praying. But you may protest, we are commanded to love our neighbor as well, and rightly so, for it is indeed the second command. Well, what all this means is that love is the foundation of worship. You cannot worship God without loving him and you cannot love him without loving others. I?ll go one better; in order to love God one must love others. This is worship; it is dependent on love, and love of God is dependent on love of others.
The scripture tells us (1 John 4:20) "If anyone says, 'I love God' yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen." So what difference does it make if we love someone who is alive as opposed to someone who is dead. If you gaze at a photograph of your loved one, alive or dead, out of love, is God offended? If you kiss the photograph, is he offended? But if you kneel before the photograph, suddenly he becomes offended? Of course not, he said so himself: (Matt 25:40) Truly I say to you, as you did to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.
So no matter how much you kneel and bow and pray, God is not going to be impressed with these simple motions, without consideration of love. He reads what is in your heart, and not the words coming off your lips. He measures your worship by how much you love him, and he gauges how much you love him by how much you love others. So God is pleased when we honor others especially his holy ones, the saints. When it comes to veneration of saints through their images just remember, "as you did to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me."
The church has always taught that kneeling and bowing and other forms of reverence are merely outward signs of our interior devotion.

They are not on earth for us to do unto them..They are with the Lord.. So why make an image of them.. Jesus says that they Honor me with thier lips but their hearts are far from me.. To Honor God we need to take Heed to His word and do what His word tells us to do.. Not do what it tells us not to do and then say well it isn't a heart thing..

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

YIKES!!! Major "eye" problem with the large fonts again LOL.

 

[thereselittleflower]

You may be straight up with you but so are we being straight up with you.. God said don't do it.. We take Gods word seriously.. For we are called to be sons of GOD through Christ.. We take His word as the stand for which we uphold the truth.. Jesus asked.. Why do you call me Lord and do not the things I say... This is an important saying.. IF we are to make Christ our Lord we are to adhere to what He says in His word.

IAA, God didn't say ANYWHERE not to do what we do.

That is the whole point. . .


.