statuettes.... Error?!?

[JimfromOhio]

Worship in Spirit, Heart, and Idoltary

Exodus 20:4 "You shall not make for yourself an idol in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below."

It is our sinful nature (flesh) to have an "object" to help us worship. As long as a Christian is focusing on their sinful nature more than they are on their spiritual nature; Christian will use their human nature to worship based on works and feelings.

Jas 1:26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.

Faith is at the foundation of all Christian living, and because faith has to do with the character of God, not my feelings about God through ANY objects, images and any form of idoltary. As a Christian, our hearts should have strong desire to serve God through the Holy Spirit.

When we worship God in image, we are to "Exalt the LORD our God and worship at his holy mountain, for the LORD our God is holy." (Psalm 99:9).

In the Beatitudes, worshippers instead of purity of their hearts, they have corrupted imaginings among themselves. When a desire is based on “worship”, there is a danger of idolatry.

Throughout the Bible, God have warned people to be careful of idolatry because we could slip into it almost without noticing it. Idolatry is what God is saying something like this for today's Christians, "You have committed adultery by worshiping idols instead of worshiping Me."

Worship means: God said "All I want is your hearts alone and adore me for Who I am." God knows every believers' hearts and God will accept any believers who truly believe His Son, who died for our sins. We worship in Spirit. John 4:23-24 Jesus said: Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

We are to worship God from our hearts because we are the temple of the living God (2 Corinthians 6:16), that God will search us and try us, and know our thoughts.(Psalm 139:23).

 

[IamAdopted]

LLOJ because they claim to be the true church.. The ONLY true church.. Bowing to a gaven image is forbidden in the scriptures.. Are the Chinese graven images? And do they claim to be the Only true church?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Sorry, mate. There's a distinct point of culture here. The Western origins and use of bowing differs from the Eastern origins and use of bowing. Whatever you people do to statues is by your own making. You make no point trying to pull in Eastern customs. A Chinese / Japanese person bowing may have something completely different in mind than a Western person bowing.

Also, please see Jim's post here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31736408&postcount=74

for examples of bowing to another in western culture . .

Would you say that a man, bowing to a woman and kissing her hand is giving adoration to her that is due God alone?




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[thereselittleflower]

LLOJ because they claim to be the true church.. The ONLY true church.. Bowing to a gaven image is forbidden in the scriptures.. Are the Chinese graven images? And do they claim to be the Only true church?

Those were a couple of examples of the logical fallacy known as Non Sequitor . . . the conclusion does not follow . . .

Sorry IAA . .. there is no logical connection between the the premises and the conclusion you draw . . .

Also, just like Tyndale, you have not yet even reached 1st base . . .

For the prohibition against graven images to even apply, the objects must be gods themselves . . .


since we don't use objects that are gods themselves, this doesn't apply . . .


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[JimfromOhio]

Also, please see Jim's post here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31736408&postcount=74

for examples of bowing to another in western culture . .

Would you say that a man, bowing to a woman and kissing her hand is giving adoration to her that is due God alone?




.

Actually, when I was posting that, bowing means respect and humility more than adoration as most culturals do. I don't bow before the Pope, nor the Idols nor anything else that the Catholic Church teaches.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Sorry, mate. There's a distinct point of culture here. The Western origins and use of bowing differs from the Eastern origins and use of bowing. Whatever you people do to statues is by your own making. You make no point trying to pull in Eastern customs. A Chinese / Japanese person bowing may have something completely different in mind than a Western person bowing.

I guess there are some things we can learn for the practices of others.
Each of us, man and woman, are in the image of God and why do we not practice what Paul said here and give each brother and sister in the LORD a "Holy Kiss"?

The exact phrase of holy kiss was found in 4 verses,

Romans 16:16 salute one another in a holy kiss; the assemblies of Christ do salute [# 782] you.

aspazomai (Strong's 782) occurs 60 times in 49 verses:

782. a-spazomai as-pad'-zom-ahee from 1 (as a particle of union) and a presumed form of 4685; to enfold in the arms, i.e. (by implication) to salute, (figuratively) to welcome:--embrace, greet, salute, take leave. 4685. spao spah'-o a primary verb; to draw:--draw (out).

 

[Dragons87]

Also, please see Jim's post here:

http://www.christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=31736408&postcount=74

for examples of bowing to another in western culture . .

Would you say that a man, bowing to a woman and kissing her hand is giving adoration to her that is due God alone?




.

Eh...you're thinking too far ahead, mate. Runnin' all over the place. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't use Eastern traditions to say that Catholic bowing to lovely statues is okay.

Plus. Motive matters.

A man bowing to a woman and kissing her hand is giving adoration to her that due God alone if the man thinks that the woman is a goddess. Doh.

So. By what motive do you bow to a most beautifully carved marble statue which, nowadays, is probably carved for a monetary profit, or machine-made in some sweatshop in a developing country, is up to you to decide and justify to God alone.

 

[IamAdopted]

The bible does not say this.. It says you shall not make anything graven and bow to it.. Just as in the golden calf.. Do not make anything graven of the earth heaven or seas.. You try to elude people by using different wording but it still does not change the fact that God said we are not to make for ouselves graven images..

 

[thereselittleflower]

Afraid I don't want to get to first base if this is the type of teaching required.

God bless

Then you have no valid argument or basis for one.


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[Benedicta00]

LLOJ because they claim to be the true church.. The ONLY true church.. Bowing to a gaven image is forbidden in the scriptures.. Are the Chinese graven images? And do they claim to be the Only true church?

No...the bible doesn't say that. It says do not take a graven image as your god. We do not do that IIA, no matter how the much SDA think we do, we don't.

 

[VCViking]

God is God because of His attributes, He is everywhere (Omnipresent). He is all knowing (Omniscience). He is all powerful (Omnipotent). These are attributes that only "a god" can have. The Bible and history clearly reveal that there is only ONE with these attributes: hence there is only one God.

So how can Mary and the saints hear your prayers to them if 10,000 other people are praying at the same time. Or are Mary and the saints like God?

A Catholic prays to Mary ten times to one every time he says a Rosary. Who is preeminent: Mary or God the Father? He believes that Mary can hear his prayer and at the same time hear the prayer of another Catholic a thousand miles away. If that is true, then Mary is omnipresent! He believes that Mary can discern the intent/need behind the repetitious prayer he recites. If that is true, then Mary is omniscient! He further believes that Mary has power to answer prayer as well as perform supernatural miracles. If this is true, then Mary is omnipotent! Now then, Mary is OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENCE, and OMNIPRESENT just like the Creator. Mary then, according to Roman Catholic teaching, is a God.

Is this view true?

 

[thereselittleflower]

Actually, when I was posting that, bowing means respect and humility more than adoration as most culturals do. I don't bow before the Pope, nor the Idols nor anything else that the Catholic Church teaches.

Jim:

"bowing means respect and humility "​

That is exactly what it means to us.


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[Benedicta00]

The bible does not say this.. It says you shall not make anything graven and bow to it.. Just as in the golden calf.. Do not make anything graven of the earth heaven or seas.. You try to elude people by using different wording but it still does not change the fact that God said we are not to make for ouselves graven images..

You are twisting this as the SDA often does to.

The bible has no commandment against graven images or bowing to anything or anyone unless you take the thing and call it your god, deny the one true God.

So stop implying we bow to false gods, we don't. It's not nice to imply that, so please stop.

 

[JimfromOhio]

Jim:

"bowing means respect and humility "​

That is exactly what it means to us.


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Yes.. but at what "intention" and "motives" of bowing? God knows why you bow by looking in our hearts. Bowing is tricky based on each Church's teachings and how people "ADORE" in their bowing.

 

[IamAdopted]

No...the bible doesn't say that. It says do not take a graven image as your god. We do not do that IIA, no matter how the much SDA think we do, we don't.

Exodus 20

4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. 5Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 

[thereselittleflower]

Eh...you're thinking too far ahead, mate. Runnin' all over the place. All I'm saying is that you shouldn't use Eastern traditions to say that Catholic bowing to lovely statues is okay.

Why not? It is based on Eastern Traditions.

Plus. Motive matters.

Exactly. Since our motivation is not to give worship due God alone, any accusations of idol worship by others is hosefeathers. . . .

A man bowing to a woman and kissing her hand is giving adoration to her that due God alone if the man thinks that the woman is a goddess. Doh.

LOL

And so you help prove our point . . . there is no idol worship going on in Catholicism.

So. By what motive do you bow to a most beautifully carved marble statue which, nowadays, is probably carved for a monetary profit, or machine-made in some sweatshop in a developing country, is up to you to decide and justify to God alone.

So, you are questioning our motives again after clearly showing that such a thing is nothing but horsefeathers?




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[Benedicta00]

So how can Mary and the saints hear your prayers to them if 10,000 other people are praying at the same time. Or are Mary and the saints like God?

The same way we can pray for 10,000 people at once.

Saints are given the ability to 'hear' from God. It's His power, not theirs.

A Catholic prays to Mary ten times to one every time he says a Rosary. Who is preeminent: Mary or God the Father? He believes that Mary can hear his prayer and at the same time hear the prayer of another Catholic a thousand miles away. If that is true, then Mary is omnipresent! He believes that Mary can discern the intent/need behind the repetitious prayer he recites. If that is true, then Mary is omniscient! He further believes that Mary has power to answer prayer as well as perform supernatural miracles. If this is true, then Mary is omnipotent! Now then, Mary is OMNIPOTENT, OMNISCIENCE, and OMNIPRESENT just like the Creator. Mary then, according to Roman Catholic teaching, is a God.

Is this view true?

My God, no... you couldn't be more wrong.

 

[thereselittleflower]

Exodus 20

Repeating a fallacy does not make the fallacy true . .


BASE ONE: proving that the objects themselves are gods.

When you reach base one, let us know. . .

 

[thereselittleflower]

Yes.. but at what "intention" and "motives" of bowing? God knows why you bow by looking in our hearts. Bowing is tricky based on each Church's teachings and how people "ADORE" in their bowing.

Let me put your concerns to rest Jim.

I have no fear of what God will find in my heart regarding my intent when I bow to a statue of Mary or when I kiss the crucifix.


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[Dragons87]

Why not? It is based on Eastern Traditions.

There you go again. What's "East" to you anyway?

Exactly. Since our motivation is not to give worship due God alone, any accusations of idol worship by others is hosefeathers. . . .

Meh. There we go.

And so you help prove our point . . . there is no idol worship going on in Catholicism.

Didn't say there was, mate.

So, you are questioning our motives again after clearly showing that such a thing is nothing but horsefeathers?




.

Read the statement again, mate. I said that whatever your motive is logs in with God. I don't give a penny what your motives are.