Statement from Staff

[Angeldove97]

Another way this has been divided up as well is between "modern thinking" and "traditional thinking"......or "conservative"....and "traditional". Those aren't really true distinctions. The egalitarian model isn't liberal or modern.

This way of thinking has always happened (x vs y)-- we see it happening in lots of areas.

For example: Look at what has ended up to be our Congregational area and Faith Groups area (not saying its a bad thing), but if you're a Catholic (with neutral leanings) you could post in the following areas:

One Bread, One Body - Catholic
Bridge Builders - Moderate Christians
The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics
Charismatic Catholic Renewal
Apostolic Churches
Conservative Christians

^^ SIX forums for a Catholic member to post in.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Now apply this to the Married Couples-- I don't think we need a ton of sub-forums to discuss certain topics. Each topic does not need its own sub-forum and not every forum we do have needs to have its own set of rules. However, not having certain areas or rules can cause issues-- sorta like what we've seen with divorce, submission, traditional vs modern/liberal views of marriage.

As a member, I'm okay in knowing I can't talk about certain things on this forum. I frequent this forum every day and try to post every day, but if I need to discuss a topic that CF doesn't allow me to discuss or share an opinion that CF doesn't agree with, then I know to go else where-- I know of a few marriage forums that is no rules what-so-ever. I'd rather have a structured forum with rules and from a Christian viewpoint, which is why this is my favorite one, but I think people need to stop making demands that we should be able to talk about anything under the sun here. And if the staffers decide to not allow new topics, I don't get why people feel the need to attack members about it. There's still a ton of things we can talk about and we need to learn how to support each of us as individuals. It's a shame that some members just feel they need to berate people on how they're handling their marriage.

 

[JRSut1000]

It's just hard because once you take off divorce, submission, traditional vs liberal, etc - that's actually a lot of restriction cuz these topics are directly related to marriage and what we experience.

 

[Angeldove97]

Right which is why Mkgal's idea really was good. Strict debate rules for any debatable matters, but subforums for the specific emotional topic.

The problem with dividing those topics by gender was that in reality it wasn't a whole gender that fell along those lines, and consequently both men and women were marginalized because they were the minority for that gender.

We have non-bickering rules and don't make gender-specific generalizations rules. Some members can't follow those-- why bring in more rules?

 

[mkgal1]

I'll concede that the phrasing "along gender lines" was careless on my part. Thanks for clearing it up.

You weren't careless, LBF. My comment about the division not being based on gender wasn't a response to anything you said........it was about how the topics have been sent to the gender specific forums...and how even that doesn't solve the issue---because difference in gender is not the problem.

Also at the heart of the issue, I think, is hypersensitivity. No matter how gently it's worded, some egalitarians are going to hear "I believe wives should submit to their husbands" as "Woman, you're nothing but a baby machine, and you should be kept barefoot and pregnant at all times. God says so. Now, shut up and get back in the kitchen!" And, even though that attitude is not at all what was said, that attitude is what the misunderstanding egalitarian is going to respond to.

Similarly, a traditionalist can be just as misunderstanding, and take any form of advocacy of mutual submission to mean, "I am woman, hear me roar! Men are all pigs, and I'm not going to be satisfied until YOU submit to ME." Again not what was said, but what will be responded to.

That may be true in some rare cases.....but, I don't think hypersensitivity is the heart of the whole issue. There are several people (both here on CF and IRL) that I call friends....that are of the comp belief. I NEVER hear any of their words to translate to any of what you posted. In fact......it's really just a difference of labels---and the basic attitude would translate the same (with these friends---some of whom are male <gasp>. So I can't think men are pigs). There are even lines of division between "camps".

 

[Angeldove97]

It's just hard because once you take off divorce, submission, traditional vs liberal, etc - that's actually a lot of restriction cuz these topics are directly related to marriage and what we experience.

I completely agree that these are important topics to discuss, but they're caused heated debates in this forum.

You technically can still discuss them in other areas-- I could go to OBOB and talk about divorce or submission in my marriage, so I'm not really limited with talking about it and seeing what others experience. I can still get feedback from others about the topic-- it just doesn't seem to be working in this area at this time.

 

[LovebirdsFlying]

I completely agree that these are important topics to discuss, but they're caused heated debates in this forum.

You technically can still discuss them in other areas-- I could go to OBOB and talk about divorce or submission in my marriage, so I'm not really limited with talking about it and seeing what others experience. I can still get feedback from others about the topic-- it just doesn't seem to be working in this area at this time.

Maybe the SoP can be amended to state that the topics can be discussed between genders in the Congregational forums, or even in Ethics and Morality which is for everyone, or Christian Philosophy and Ethics for Christians.

In the meantime, I agree with the concern Romans brought up. It's true that if the division of disagreement is not sharply along gender lines, dividing the topic between the genders might not be the most effective way to stave off fights.

 

[Romanseight2005]

Yeah I get it, I really do, and I do respect the choices made. It's just that the issue of topic, submission verse egal, really encompasses every single area of life. It's at the heart of how you see everything, so I guess I just don't think it is very realistic to restrict it, but as I said, I respect you all, and I will say no more.

 

[mkgal1]

This way of thinking has always happened (x vs y)-- we see it happening in lots of areas.

That's the issue, though.....it wouldn't be "versus"......the battling would (hopefully) be diminished by breaking off the topic into separate areas--where like-minded people can discuss things without being challenged for their foundational belief. Relegating the topic to the gender-specific subforums didn't help---as Rom8 described. People were marginalized. Also....there's been the problem with new members not even knowing about those sub forums, as they aren't accessible.

For example: Look at what has ended up to be our Congregational area and Faith Groups area (not saying its a bad thing), but if you're a Catholic (with neutral leanings) you could post in the following areas:

One Bread, One Body - Catholic
Bridge Builders - Moderate Christians
The Lord's Table - Liberal Catholics
Charismatic Catholic Renewal
Apostolic Churches
Conservative Christians

^^ SIX forums for a Catholic member to post in.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Now apply this to the Married Couples-- I don't think we need a ton of sub-forums to discuss certain topics. Each topic does not need its own sub-forum and not every forum we do have needs to have its own set of rules. However, not having certain areas or rules can cause issues-- sorta like what we've seen with divorce, submission, traditional vs modern/liberal views of marriage.

As a member, I'm okay in knowing I can't talk about certain things on this forum. I frequent this forum every day and try to post every day, but if I need to discuss a topic that CF doesn't allow me to discuss or share an opinion that CF doesn't agree with, then I know to go else where-- I know of a few marriage forums that is no rules what-so-ever. I'd rather have a structured forum with rules and from a Christian viewpoint, which is why this is my favorite one, but I think people need to stop making demands that we should be able to talk about anything under the sun here. And if the staffers decide to not allow new topics, I don't get why people feel the need to attack members about it. There's still a ton of things we can talk about and we need to learn how to support each of us as individuals. It's a shame that some members just feel they need to berate people on how they're handling their marriage.

I agree.....we *don't* need tons of sub forums or a sub forum for each topic, but everything really does go back to a certain foundation. Not only that, but as Vincenticus said, it's a common struggle that many Christians have in marriage---it would be great to offer a place of safe discussion about the topic.....where BOTH sides are heard equally, and everyone has a "place" to be around like-minded people when they need support and encouragement.

 

[tannicv2]

Have fun everyone...

 

[mkgal1]

The way I look at issues within a business or an organization (which CF is...right?)....is that when people air their grievances, it makes improvement & problem solving more simple. IOW---its a good thing, that should be welcomed. That's the whole idea of suggestion boxes....right? You mentioned other forums AngelDove---and that's always an option for all of us. I wouldn't take my time, though, to share my to share my opinions if I didn't think it would be beneficial for all concerned. (Sorry that sounds snarky....I don't mean it that way.....just not sure how else to phrase that).

 

[LovedSparrow]

There were major issues between men and women that kept being brought up (among other issues and topics)-- a member would post, another member would reply in a not-so-nice way and bring up past issues. Then the first member would either attack back causing a un-neccesary debate or would just leave the area for awhile.

[I'm saying this as a member who enjoys coming to this forum~ espeically as a newly wed] I've seen a few incidents of people blantantly disregarding these two rules in this forum:

Like I mentioned above, certain people will come in, attack a member constantly until that member does not feel welcomed in sharing with the discussion.

They do represent all sorts of opinions and pov's, Athene, I completely agree with you, but some people (not the ones necessarily banned per say) just didn't understand how to let others have differing opinions or (at least) respond to differing opinions in a kind way (either by response or by spite reporting posts too). Maybe its just their posting style and they're not really trying to mean, but it hurts none the less.

I totally agree with you. I got frustrated and left the Married forum for a long time just because the snarky comments got me angry and it affected my mood.

Some people made something from nothing, just for the sake of argument. An OP could've said the sky was blue today and it's a pretty day, and then that comment would be met with an argument started. (Example).

Some of the arguments just seemed so nitpicky. It didn't feel like a safe place to me. Someone needed help or advice and they got run off the forum.

I can understand both sides. Some members were glue, but didn't understand how their comments could be taken as rude. God made all of us with unique personalities, which are to be celebrated, but with respect to others.

LovedSparrow

 

[LovedSparrow]

Thanks for starting this thread. I'm glad that it was brought up instead of swept under the rug. I'm glad that we get a chance to talk about it and celebrate different views.

 

[Romanseight2005]

The only thing about discussing submission in the other forums, is that we would be discussing them among singles too. That's a little uncomfortable to me because there are so many aspects of it that can't be known as a single. Iow, there might be a lot of people there who could not relate at all, because they have never been married.

 

[mkgal1]

We have non-bickering rules and don't make gender-specific generalizations rules. Some members can't follow those-- why bring in more rules?

I'm not really talking about "more" rules.....just more clearly defined rules. The line between what's "bickering"......and what is simply holding one's ground isn't really clearly defined or seemingly consistent. Words like "bickering"...."flaming".....and "goading" are all quite ambiguous. In formal debate....the rules are much more clear and easy to follow. That's really the issue (IMO) as Athene pointed out......the fear that's been created is one that's going to drive people away. It's like when there's a huge layoff....everyone is wondering if they are next in line.

 

[LinkH]

I haven't been following the forum. I suspect people were chased away for rule violations-- insults and such. I haven't been following all the threads-- and maybe it's good because I am still here.

I am a little surprised that Chaz is gone. He certain focused on some of the same topics a lot, but I don't remember his insulting people or breaking certain other rules once.

I rarely get warnings in my mailbox. I think I got one last year maybe, or a few emails stating a thread had been cancelled without a formal warning. Maybe those removed had gotten a number of them for different reasons. Are they still welcome on the subforums?

It does seem like the forum has been a bit more peaceful for the past few days.

 

[mkgal1]

Quiet isn't always an indication of peace (not saying that to be argumentative).

 

[LinkH]

I'm curious. How did you guys know who was banned? I noticed things were quieter/more peaceful around here and suspected one poster was gone.

Did you individually find out from posters, or was there some kind of announcement or conversation with moderators or staff?

 

[Angeldove97]

I'm curious. How did you guys know who was banned? I noticed things were quieter/more peaceful around here and suspected one poster was gone.

Did you individually find out from posters, or was there some kind of announcement or conversation with moderators or staff?

We're really not suppose to talk publicly about staff actions. Out of respect for the staffers and those members who were banned, I would ask that the convo ends here. I hope you can understand why.

 

[Hammster]

I haven't read every post, but got through about three pages or so, so I think I get the drift of the issues you guys are having. So here's my two cents worth, from my neck of the woods.

Personally, I don't care what you all talk about, as long as it doesn't violate the rules. I understand the issue of submission, and while I may or may not agree with it not being allowed in mixed company, the rule is the rule. That's all I care about.

As to the issue of things being off topic, I do understand that thread drift happens, as do most mods. The only times I have issues with OT is, one: when a member tries to hijack a thread and deliberately makes posts which do so. And two: when the OP asks the other members to stay on topic, or get back on topic, and they are ignored. Those are re violations. Now, I may post a mod hat if some bickering is going on, but that's it.

As to the banned members, I hate to see it happen like it did, but as a staffer, I'm glad it did happen. In other words, banning people, especially long time members, isn't good. But when every single day (and this is no exaggeration) you get four to eight reports from the same people about the same people, it get tiring. Especially when you realize that they are trying to win the debate through reports.

Unfortunately, we all have our blind spots and sometimes it takes something dramatic to wake us up to our behavior. Been there, done that. Hopefully these four will get to that point and they can humbly ask to return. I have no idea if that would happen. But who knows. Maybe it will.

In the mean time, please discuss and debate, and do so with passion. But be respectful of others and obey the rules.

Off the soap box now.

 

[Puptart]

But when every single day (and this is no exaggeration) you get four to eight reports from the same people about the same people, it get tiring.

This is kinda sad for me because it brings me back to something I already said: I think people have to grow a thicker skin as much as some people need to "tone it down".

Especially when you realize that they ate trying to win the debate through reports.

This is really sad.