STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

[Arsenios]

...... unsubscribing ... it's been an interesting conversation ... thanks all!

Are you leaving because of this thread?
Please forgive me if I have been a cause of offense...
You are beloved here...
I sure hate to see you go...

Thank-you for having come here with us...
An interesting conversation indeed...

The one other matter I wanted to mention on the differences in Grace between the Orthodox Faith and that which is heterodox is the efficacy of repentance... Most Protestants that I know have simply accepted that they are not going to overcome their basic life's sin(s)... They do the best they can, but are always vulnerable to them... They are, from our perspective, in the same 'position' as the Old Testament believers, of whom Paul wrote from his own experience, "What I would not, that I do..."

With the Orthodox, not nearly so much... For the Orthodox, sin is a choice, and consequences are immediate - Withdrawal from Communion, Confession, Absolution, counselling, and Penances when deemed needed, and with all this at hand, plus the Annointing, and the regular daily Services, and morning and evening prayers, a person really needs to make a conscious decision to remain in a sin- And many do... But outside this armada of remedies, it is really difficult to fight back effectively... We end up trying all manner of remedies, and we keep slipping over and over...

And granted, for one's basic life-sin, it can and does normally take years, several to many, to overcome, yet even so, we mark progress in a reasonably steady progression... Repentance, you see, being our life focus in the Body of Christ - And NOT, particularly, the PROCLAIMING of the Gospel... Most of us are simply and quietly dealing with inner matters out of sight of most, and in full confessional view of the Church or one's Confessor in the Church...

So that if someone were to ask, and you were to answer, "How is your life stacking up regarding issues with sin?" One could answer fairly clearly how that battle is progressing... We see this Faith as a lifelong STRUGGLE against the powers of darkness, beginning with self, and then only after that, with others' sins, and those by intercessory prayers...

The difference, you see, is the ready availablability in the Faith of total immersion in the praxis, eg the DOING, of the Faith... And the discipling expectation that one is to be willing to repent from sin and turn to God... It is a total Way of Life, and Christ said: "I AM the Way and the Life..."

Which is why, before Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians, the followers of Christ were called "The People of the Way"...

So I am sorry to see you go, Cassia...

39,000 plus posts is a lot!

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Are you leaving because of this thread?
Please forgive me if I have been a cause of offense...
You are beloved here...
I sure hate to see you go...

Thank-you for having come here with us...
An interesting conversation indeed...

The one other matter I wanted to mention on the differences in Grace between the Orthodox Faith and that which is heterodox is the efficacy of repentance... Most Protestants that I know have simply accepted that they are not going to overcome their basic life's sin(s)... They do the best they can, but are always vulnerable to them... They are, from our perspective, in the same 'position' as the Old Testament believers, of whom Paul wrote from his own experience, "What I would not, that I do..."

With the Orthodox, not nearly so much... For the Orthodox, sin is a choice, and consequences are immediate - Withdrawal from Communion, Confession, Absolution, counselling, and Penances when deemed needed, and with all this at hand, plus the Annointing, and the regular daily Services, and morning and evening prayers, a person really needs to make a conscious decision to remain in a sin- And many do... But outside this armada of remedies, it is really difficult to fight back effectively... We end up trying all manner of remedies, and we keep slipping over and over...

And granted, for one's basic life-sin, it can and does normally take years, several to many, to overcome, yet even so, we mark progress in a reasonably steady progression... Repentance, you see, being our life focus in the Body of Christ - And NOT, particularly, the PROCLAIMING of the Gospel... Most of us are simply and quietly dealing with inner matters out of sight of most, and in full confessional view of the Church or one's Confessor in the Church...

So that if someone were to ask, and you were to answer, "How is your life stacking up regarding issues with sin?" One could answer fairly clearly how that battle is progressing... We see this Faith as a lifelong STRUGGLE against the powers of darkness, beginning with self, and then only after that, with others' sins, and those by intercessory prayers...

The difference, you see, is the ready availablability in the Faith of total immersion in the praxis, eg the DOING, of the Faith... And the discipling expectation that one is to be willing to repent from sin and turn to God... It is a total Way of Life, and Christ said: "I AM the Way and the Life..."

Which is why, before Antioch, where the followers of Christ were first called Christians, the followers of Christ were called "The People of the Way"...

So I am sorry to see you go, Cassia...

39,000 plus posts is a lot!

Arsenios

I think it was the leap in conversation that was throwing me off or it was me failing to see the lifting of the mystery that you presented, but np. God be with you.

ETA or to be completely honest I felt that Protestantism was being insulted so choose to opt out .... but all is forgiven ... we can agree to disagree if seeing eye to eye is not possible ..peace brother!

We know that Jesus is the only way to God but your original question was "are there different ways to come to Jesus?" Specicifically Arsenios would say the sacraments of baptism, marraige, communion etc is the way but he would say that way is shrouded in mystery. Whereas I would say that the way is thru the reality of baptism, marraige, communion etc.
The liturgy vs non liturgical thinking perhaps.

~ in the spiritual sense that is only about 'Christ and the church.' ~

ie:
What is true in baptism : that we have died in Christ ;
needs to be assimulated to become a reality. As real as the actual baptism that people are relying on to save them.

What is true in marraige: that the two have become one ;
needs to be true in the spiritual. It is a 24 - 7 relationship. Whatever you expect from your wife can easily be an expectation of what Christ wants from you.

What is true of communion : that He is our edification ( a food that others know nothing about)
needs to be our daily bread, a continuous feeding on Him.

Being completely aware that the reality of abiding is factual does not carry with it a duality of perception; one minute He's there and the next minute He's gone. Like Peter that's probably how our minds do work so the best that can be done is to bring the mind captive to Christ. (a turning to Christ away from the devil)

Because I said ""it's just life"" and ""life is a constant awareness""" doesn't mean that I have arrived. It just means that I have decided to believe the truth that He is with us always, even to the end of the age
RATHER
than the devil's lies that say God has abandoned us to fight the devil alone as mere natural beings that are just fed animals. The devil bets on that lie that says at first sign of not being fed we will forsake all that Christ offers. Best not to believe the lie to start with.

"A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" John 4:23
That's an inward motion rather than an outward motion is all that I'm saying.
I just don't see how a repetition of words helps when He is Present for actually working thru life lessons if we will give Him of our time.

Edit to add: There's nothing wrong with many times during the day to tell Him that you love him. Perhaps what I object to is the constant reminding oneself that of our previous condition outside of Christ. Because when we take on His name we take on His identity not that of the previous husband. Looking back after taking the plow in hand makes for very crooked paths

 

[Arsenios]

I think it was the leap in conversation that was throwing me off or it was me failing to see the lifting of the mystery that you presented, but np. God be with you.

ETA or to be completely honest I felt that Protestantism was being insulted so choose to opt out .... but all is forgiven ... we can agree to disagree if seeing eye to eye is not possible ..peace brother!

Thank you for your gracious post -

I have seen a lot of bashing on forums, and have tried to avoid it carefully while yet speaking truthfully...
I am glad to see you back - We have a Protestant lineage in our community that prayed a dead child back to life some 40 years ago, and again 2 years ago - Same family... The youngest Grand-son has become Orthodox to the dismay of all his family - In his mid-20s - From Anglican about to be elevated to the priesthood there... I have seen with my own eyes huge and abundant Grace flowing through Protestant faithful... I "accidentally" met and was introduced to the second child by his mother while on a job where she was a customer of the store I was taking care of... And much more...

So it is not a matter of criticism, either of people or of beliefs found in Protestant Churches, but of assessing what is real and caring about the people involved... Most of the spiritual people in Christianity outside of Orthodoxy are unable to disciple what they have encountered to another... We tend to rely on Holy Elders and the writings of Holy Elders... They have the experience and discernment, and "The prayers of the righteous avail much..."

I can't tell you how relieved I am that you returned to the thread - I have no desire whatsoever to be offensive in any way... And I can be offensive without intending it... Please forgive me...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

what god has made clean let no man show contempt for ~ Acts 10:28

That's why I urge you to explore further your experience with God from the beginning. Spiritually how would you write that out because while the outcome is the same for those who experience God the means is individual.

 

[Arsenios]

what god has made clean let no man show contempt for ~ Acts 10:28

καὶ ἐμοὶ ὁ Θεὸς ἔδειξε μηδένα κοινὸν ἢ ἀκάθαρτον λέγειν ἄνθρωπον
And to me God has shown never common or unclean to be saying man
[eg God has shown me to never call a man common or unclean.]

That's why I urge you to explore further your experience with God from the beginning.

Thank-you - The Theotokos, after her conceiving, still not saying much, laid up in her soul treasure for the coming birth of her Son... She forgot nothing... And Her Son rebuked the Church that had lost track of its first Love of their Creator in Revelation... I can be reckless in my zeal, forgetting the holiness of the Calling of our Lord... Forgive me...

Spiritually how would you write that out because while the outcome is the same for those who experience God the means is individual.

There is a commonality of outcome - eg entry into the Kingdeom of Heaven, and the profound Peace found therein that has nothing to do with worldly outcomes... And yet the Gifts of God are by no means the same, but vary profoundly from person to person, and this because of the particularity of each person's life lived... A person who grows up in a pious Christian family in a Christian nation with an early calling to a sacred life will have one set of Gifts, whereas a thief and a murderer who is called in his thirties and turns his life around will have very different Gifts... [I am thinking of Abba Moses the Black - a very major dude who hid in a monastery to avoid the Byzantine army that had been sent out to apprehend him and his band, and was called by God through the total absence of fear on the part of the monks there when he threatened them to co-opt them into hiding them, and whose heart was broken by their love of him and their tender pity and compassion for him - He became a very famous Father of the Church - Close to my heart...] The former may, if it be God's will, end up in a cave praying for and spiritually roaming the earth, while the latter ended up converting thieves and murderers to Christ, and was killed by the sword at the end of his life...

There are a vast array of Gifts, with the Gift of Prophetic insight being perhaps the most desirable... Because it can be the most helpful to others... The most "terrible" of the gifts is the Call to Apostleship,

"For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death:"

which entails the acquisition, normally, of ALL the Gifts, at a cost that is staggering by outward worldly standards, yet given joyfully, and well described by Paul - Who recommends its imitation in those he is discipling that leads to Spiritual Fatherhood...

"...for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the Gospel...
...be ye followers of me."

About the only part of his 1Cor 4:9-16 that I can personally relate to is in 10 - "We are fools..."

Yet we are discipled by Paul in these matters to be followers of Him...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

It is your misfortune to meet up with me I think because I'm no respector of persons and don't hold to heros of the faith. The only One that counts is He Who called and to Him I must make my calling sure.

Just a quick post as it's a busy day. Have a good one!

 

[Arsenios]

It is your misfortune to meet up with me I think

That has never been a question!

I ain't no prize neither!

because I'm no respector of persons and don't hold to heros of the faith.

Oh forgive me, because I know you actually do hold to heros of the Faith of Christ...
May I name a few?
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and James.

God is no respecter of persons either...

There are many who have succeeded in the God-quest...

Heros of the Faith who endured all manner of persecutions...

Of whom the world is not worthy...

The only One that counts is He Who called and to Him I must make my calling sure.

Those whom He sends count, I should think...

And yes, Paul tells us to make our calling sure...

Just a quick post as it's a busy day.
Have a good one!

Back at ya!

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

....Oh forgive me, because I know you actually do hold to heros of the Faith of Christ...
May I name a few?
Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul and James....

Ahhh but if you will remember that is the road I'm on. lol. Yours is a different road which is your private matter

 

[Arsenios]

Ahhh but if you will remember that is the road I'm on. lol. Yours is a different road which is your private matter

They are not the only ones, you see...

There are all those mentioned by Paul in Hebrews 11...

There are those mentioned by Paul in his epistles...

There is the woman at the well, St. Photini...

There are those known and unknown...

It was only to the Apostles that Christ gave the Great Commission...

And that Great Commission was to DISCIPLE all the peoples of the earth,
and to baptize them into Christ...
And to showthem a Way of Life that is NOT of this world...

We had a wonderful couple come to our Church - Spiritual people both - They had found each other and married, and had both been astonished that the other spent most of the time in prayer... They loved to pray, and discovered the Orthodox writings on prayer, and were putting those prayer principles into practice as they read and understood them... They came to Services to close their eyes and enter into the prayer flow of the Services, sitting at the back with their eyes closed... Praying softly... They did not desire to participate in the Life of the Church, nor to be baptized, nor really much of anything - Just to hang out in prayer during the Service of the Divine Liturgy...

So my question for you is this: Were they doing what Christ commanded?

Did He not command that we BE discipled AND be baptized into His Body?

Even after encountering Paul on the Road to Damascus, Christ SENT Paul to Ananias to be healed, Baptized, and given the Holy Spirit, which he DID NOT RECEIVE from his encounter with Christ...

It is a big deal - The living and the dead, whom Christ will judge at the Last Judgement, are those baptized into Christ, and those who have not been baptized into Christ... And many of the latter will enter, and many of the former will not... The Power to bind and to loose was given to the Apostles - It was not given to anyone else...

But enough -

Thank-you for standing in the Truth you have been given...

No one can ask for more...

May God continue to bless your walk...

Arsenios

 

[~Zao~]

They are not the only ones, you see...

There are all those mentioned by Paul in Hebrews 11...

There are those mentioned by Paul in his epistles...

There is the woman at the well, St. Photini...

There are those known and unknown...

It was only to the Apostles that Christ gave the Great Commission...

And that Great Commission was to DISCIPLE all the peoples of the earth,
and to baptize them into Christ...
And to showthem a Way of Life that is NOT of this world...

We had a wonderful couple come to our Church - Spiritual people both - They had found each other and married, and had both been astonished that the other spent most of the time in prayer... They loved to pray, and discovered the Orthodox writings on prayer, and were putting those prayer principles into practice as they read and understood them... They came to Services to close their eyes and enter into the prayer flow of the Services, sitting at the back with their eyes closed... Praying softly... They did not desire to participate in the Life of the Church, nor to be baptized, nor really much of anything - Just to hang out in prayer during the Service of the Divine Liturgy...

So my question for you is this: Were they doing what Christ commanded?

Did He not command that we BE discipled AND be baptized into His Body?

Even after encountering Paul on the Road to Damascus, Christ SENT Paul to Ananias to be healed, Baptized, and given the Holy Spirit, which he DID NOT RECEIVE from his encounter with Christ...

It is a big deal - The living and the dead, whom Christ will judge at the Last Judgement, are those baptized into Christ, and those who have not been baptized into Christ... And many of the latter will enter, and many of the former will not... The Power to bind and to loose was given to the Apostles - It was not given to anyone else...

But enough -

Thank-you for standing in the Truth you have been given...

No one can ask for more...

May God continue to bless your walk...

Arsenios

Were they doing as Christ commanded?

 

[~Zao~]

I don't think the quality of one's ministry should be weighted by the physical subjugation one endures, nor should enduring such necessarily be the goal, but that the heart of a true disciple should be prepared to endure it if by doing so the gospel is preached to greater effect as a direct result.

I'm reminded of Hebrews 12:1-2 where Paul says to cast off anything and everything that will hinder our walk with Christ. Disciples should be pruning themselves of worldly things in a progressive way that comes by yielding to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Hebrews 12:1-3 is the true heart of a disciple. I like the way you described the process of sanctification.