STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

[Arsenios]

Hi Arsenios,

Now this last part I cannot agree with as it paints God as `unjust,` don`t you think?

Marilyn.

Oh, I shouldn't think so...
And I would hope not...
Justice and Mercy are one in Him, yes?

To the condemnation of the Jews who very likely just had heard the reading of Psalm 81 during the very Service just prior to this teaching by Jesus that comprises virtually all of John 10... It is a total overload, just for the sake of this one teaching... To convict them by their own Services and Text and the Law that Christ is He to Whom that exact Scripture did apply... Utterly over the top if true... And they were so uncircumcized of heart that they still sought to stone Him to death...

I thank God every day for not dealing with me according to my sins...
Was the Crucifixion of Christ an act of justice?
Or was it Christ's means of overturning Hades?
Trampling down Death by [His] Death...

I am rambling!

Thank-you for your kind thoughts...

Arsenios

 

[Marilyn C]

God is like that...
He does not play fair...
He cheats scandalously...
For the sake of the salvation of our souls...
And not without success!

Hi Arsenious,

This is what I was referring to - not playing fair and cheats scandalously.....not words I would used of God.

Marilyn.

 

[Arsenios]

Hi Arsenious,

This is what I was referring to - not playing fair and cheats scandalously.....not words I would used of God.

Marilyn.

I know...

A.

 

[Arsenios]

Hi Arsenious,

This is what I was referring to - not playing fair and cheats scandalously.....not words I would used of God.

Marilyn.

If we had any idea of how much God does for us and for out salvation, on the one hand keeping our freedom of will intact, and yet providing everything for us that will point us toward Himself... Everything that happens is for our Salvation... Nothing is for our condemnation... It is an utterly one-sided onslaught of goodness... Cheating the dark powers of their earthly rule of death, and patiently trying over and over, to bring us to the point in the Prodigal's life when he came to himself... It is unending... He never gives up... His Love for mankind is wanton - He reconciled Herod and Pilate as they were seeing to His death...

This is the kind of Love God has for us, the Love that creates creation... Were it not our Lord and God, this kind of love would be unfair, cheating and scandalous... But it IS God, and it IS the Love that brings everything and even us ourselves forth from nothing into existence and being and even unto Life everlasting...

We can sink into sin, and should we repent, He will hold the demonic forces at bay that we not suffer what we rightly deserve, but forgives us and sets us upright, and keeps us in His Love...

Besides, the demonic powers NEED to be scandalized and cheated and unfairly treated...

The Love of God for man is everything they have forsaken and hate...

Please forgive me if I stated this Love in a manner that can indeed raise an eyebrow or three! But God meets us totally more than half-way... All day long... All night long... Every day and every night...



Arsenios

 

[Marilyn C]

Hi Arsenios,

I hear your heart, bro, however God did everything `legally` according to God`s divine law, otherwise He would be a dictator, deceptive and morally bankrupt.

regards, Marilyn.

 

[Arsenios]

Hi Arsenios,

I hear your heart, bro, however God did everything `legally` according to God`s divine law, otherwise He would be a dictator, deceptive and morally bankrupt.

regards, Marilyn.

Born under the Law He gave to Moses He fulfilled it...
And in this in Himself He lifted the curse of Adam...
Because He overcame the world and ascended the Cross for us...

But the fulfillment of the Law is not legalism...
It is the transcendence of the Law by Grace...
The Law but governs the external man...
But Grace the internal...

Gal 5:22-3
Love, Joy, Peace... against such there is no law...

As ministers we are called to deceive, even as Christ deceived Hades...
Hear Paul again:

2Co 6:4-8
...As ministers of God...
By honour and dishonour,
by evil reputation and good reputation
as deceivers, and yet true...

In Christ we are entering into the primordial power of God's creation of the Kosmos...
From this perspective is given both law and Grace
Both existence and being...
Both tablets of stone and tablets of a purified heart softened by tears...

Being beyond the Law, Christ gave the Law, then fulfilled the Law, then transcended the Law...
The law was but a tutor, a stop-gap, a temporary measure...
That the Grace of God should find preparation...
And in this Grace, in this wanton Love of God beyond all imagining, are we Called to God...

Yes, I am speaking from the heart...
I am but describing what I see...
The Law was not given by a legalist...
It was given for the Lawless...
A condescension to fallen human weakness...
To fallen man's love for sin...

But the Reality of God is Love...

ὅτι ὁ Θεὸς ἀγάπη ἐστίν.
1John 4:8
Because God Love IS...

Discipleship in Christ is for the sake of the acquisition of this Love that God IS...
It is the purchase of oil in the market for the lamps of the foolish virgins...
It is the only thing that can possibly justify the lives people lived for Christ...
It is for our entry into the wedding chamber at midnight...

It is for the sake of encountering Christ Transfigured...
And in that encounter, becoming One with Christ...

This is what the Church disciples...
"Disciple all the Peoples..."

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Born under the Law He gave to Moses He fulfilled it...
And in this in Himself He lifted the curse of Adam...
Because He overcame the world and ascended the Cross for us...

But the fulfillment of the Law is not legalism...
It is the transcendence of the Law by Grace...
The Law but governs the external man...
But Grace the internal...

Gal 5:22-3
Love, Joy, Peace... against such there is no law...

As ministers we are called to deceive, even as Christ deceived Hades...
Hear Paul again:

2Co 6:4-8
...As ministers of God...
By honour and dishonour,
by evil reputation and good reputation
as deceivers, and yet true...

In Christ we are entering into the primordial power of God's creation of the Kosmos...
From this perspective is given both law and Grace
Both existence and being...
Both tablets of stone and tablets of a purified heart softened by tears...

Being beyond the Law, Christ gave the Law, then fulfilled the Law, then transcended the Law...
The law was but a tutor, a stop-gap, a temporary measure...
That the Grace of God should find preparation...
And in this Grace, in this wanton Love of God beyond all imagining, are we Called to God...

Yes, I am speaking from the heart...
I am but describing what I see...
The Law was not given by a legalist...
It was given for the Lawless...
A condescension to fallen human weakness...
To fallen man's love for sin...

But the Reality of God is Love...

ὅτι ὁ Θεὸς ἀγάπη ἐστίν.
1John 4:8
Because God Love IS...

Discipleship in Christ is for the sake of the acquisition of this Love that God IS...
It is the purchase of oil in the market for the lamps of the foolish virgins...
It is the only thing that can possibly justify the lives people lived for Christ...
It is for our entry into the wedding chamber at midnight...

It is for the sake of encountering Christ Transfigured...
And in that encounter, becoming One with Christ...

This is what the Church disciples...
"Disciple all the Peoples..."

Arsenios

Is that something like be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves Matthew 10:16 a balancing act indeed. It`s very hard to witness to anything of God without offending some. Yet to be as harmless as a dove does not entail being a sledgehammer of reproof for those who are still struggling. While we need to have foresight as to the moves the devil will play against us to escape being hurt by the wolves, I think we also need to be without guile ourselves, without evil intentions or ill will to others.

 

[Arsenios]

Is that something like be as wise as serpents but as gentle as doves Matthew 10:16 a balancing act indeed. It`s very hard to witness to anything of God without offending some. Yet to be as harmless as a dove does not entail being a sledgehammer of reproof for those who are still struggling. While we need to have foresight as to the moves the devil will play against us to escape being hurt by the wolves, I think we also need to be without guile ourselves, without evil intentions or ill will to others.

The Holy Fathers all demonstrate a very keen appreciation for the paradoxes that comprise this Faith - Paul says "We hold the Mystery of the Faith in a pure conscience"... The Faith is a Mystery... It is not a legal system of belief or action... And the only approach that siezes the Kingdom of Heaven is the violence of the violent in their OWN repentance from evil and calling upon the Lord... And it is the Apostles who were discipled in HOW to do so, and who in turn have discipled the faithful in their exact observance of all the commandments of Christ - And these are the Services of the Church and the Mysteries contained therein - eg the Mysteries of Baptism, Confession, Communion, Marriage, etc...

The Body of Christ, into which we are Baptized, is the repository of this Grace, against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail... It is a Grace that is different from the Grace of the Old Testament Prophets, but is not experientially different - The Holy Spirit is, after all, the Holy Spirit!

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

The Holy Fathers all demonstrate a very keen appreciation for the paradoxes that comprise this Faith - Paul says "We hold the Mystery of the Faith in a pure conscience"... The Faith is a Mystery... It is not a legal system of belief or action... And the only approach that siezes the Kingdom of Heaven is the violence of the violent in their OWN repentance from evil and calling upon the Lord... And it is the Apostles who were discipled in HOW to do so, and who in turn have discipled the faithful in their exact observance of all the commandments of Christ - And these are the Services of the Church and the Mysteries contained therein - eg the Mysteries of Baptism, Confession, Communion, Marriage, etc...

The Body of Christ, into which we are Baptized, is the repository of this Grace, against which the Gates of Hell shall not prevail... It is a Grace that is different from the Grace of the Old Testament Prophets, but is not experientially different - The Holy Spirit is, after all, the Holy Spirit!

Arsenios

While that is the belief of the visable church the invisable church sees all of those things in the spiritual sense and not in the material ... AS DID PAUL ... however for the unlearned to obtain that which is spiritual there is the outline of the shadow presented to formulate the idea of the spiritual ... WHICH IS TRUTH ...
even a Nicodemus could not understand that unless he were born again. Paradox.

 

[Arsenios]

While that is the belief of the visable church [vs] the invisable church sees all of those things in the spiritual sense and not in the material ... AS DID PAUL ... however for the unlearned to obtain that which is spiritual there is the outline of the shadow presented to formulate the idea of the spiritual ... WHICH IS TRUTH ...
even a Nicodemus could not understand that unless he were born again. Paradox.

The visible Church is the Body of Christ, and can be observed as an Ekklesia, a gathering of those called from the world - Indeed the word for holy is 'unworldly' - So that it is flesh and blood that comprises the visible Church... And especially when they gather together to worship...

The invisible Church is the "Great Cloud of Witnesses [martyrs]..." comprising those who have passed the course of this life successfully... Often the contrast is between the Church Militant on earth, and the Church Triumphant in Heaven... Paul suffered for the sake of the Ekklesia - Indeed mentioned some 80 times in the NT, and none of them invisible, but all very visible - Here is one by Paul:
Col 1:24
Who is now rejoicing in my sufferings for you,
and filling up that which is behind
of the afflictions of Christ,
in my flesh,
for His Body's sake,
Which is the Church...

This is very compressed, but the Ellkesia, the Church, IS the Body of Christ, and it IS visible, and her ministers are called to suffer for Her sake, and rejoice in that suffering, for what indeed did Christ leave behind of His afflictions? Did He not leave behind His Body, the Disciples, who all suffered for Him, and the Ekklesia, all visible and spiritual? He left behind our suffering who are following Him in His sufferings for us, and us for the sake of Him, of His Body, the Ekklesia of God...

Indeed it was the establishment of this Body on earth for which Christ incarnated upon this earth...
His Crucifixion was but a means of this establishment, because death had to be overcome due to the detour caused by Adam's sin and death...

Rejoicing in sufferings is a rebuking of death and its evils...
It is a tormenting of demonic powers...
It is a triumph in Christ by the members of His Body

Paul, you are right, (and many miss it,) is a profoundly Spiritual writer...
I sure missed it in my early reading of him...
I could not get past his long strings of words!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Our Priest just forwarded this short piece by Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos -
That's his mug on my avatar photo...
Greek with English text...

To witness in Christ means martyrdom...

And in keeping with the paradoxical nature of this Faith, one might say that martyrdom is the final stage of discipleship...

And...

It can also be the initial one!

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

The only attainment is the attainment. I think that's what got me questioning the means but it's been an interesting conversation

"The only attainment is the attainment"...perhaps a fair statement, but it doesn't give much for those of us who haven't attained it but seek it to go on. While it seems that the Holy Spirit is all that can bring us to Him, are there practices that have been found helpful by those further along the way over the ages? To say "pray without ceasing" is helpful, but how? To say that we must take up our cross and follow Him also gives a good principle, but what does this mean in daily life specifically? Love God and love your neighbor, but in what concrete ways do we show it?
If the only attainment is the attainment, doesn't that mean that one can only be a Christian by being a Christian...but then Christ said "Be perfect", so how?

I'm not saying (as Arsenios might, if I read him rightly) that the Mysteries or Sacraments of the Church are the only way to discipleship (though I can see some value), but doesn't the example, teaching and counsel of wise Christians through the ages aid us on the journey? Scripture sets out the principles, but doesn't then tradition (and I don't mean any specific denominational tradition) give us practical application of that Scripture?

Can we shrug and simply "let go and let God" as is the popular statement?

I guess I'm just looking for the practical means to attain a deeper and closer relationship with Him, to achieve that constant awareness you speak of in another thread. Maybe I'm just looking for a shortcut, being the impatient person that I am...

(Sorry for the rambling post - too little sleep, and too many scattered thoughts on the idea "the only attainment is the attainment" - believe it or not, this post is the edited version!)

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

"The only attainment is the attainment"...perhaps a fair statement, but it doesn't give much for those of us who haven't attained it but seek it to go on. While it seems that the Holy Spirit is all that can bring us to Him, are there practices that have been found helpful by those further along the way over the ages? To say "pray without ceasing" is helpful, but how? To say that we must take up our cross and follow Him also gives a good principle, but what does this mean in daily life specifically? Love God and love your neighbor, but in what concrete ways do we show it?
If the only attainment is the attainment, doesn't that mean that one can only be a Christian by being a Christian...but then Christ said "Be perfect", so how?

I'm not saying (as Arsenios might, if I read him rightly) that the Mysteries or Sacraments of the Church are the only way to discipleship (though I can see some value), but doesn't the example, teaching and counsel of wise Christians through the ages aid us on the journey? Scripture sets out the principles, but doesn't then tradition (and I don't mean any specific denominational tradition) give us practical application of that Scripture?

Can we shrug and simply "let go and let God" as is the popular statement?

I guess I'm just looking for the practical means to attain a deeper and closer relationship with Him, to achieve that constant awareness you speak of in another thread. Maybe I'm just looking for a shortcut, being the impatient person that I am...

(Sorry for the rambling post - too little sleep, and too many scattered thoughts on the idea "the only attainment is the attainment" - believe it or not, this post is the edited version!)

We know that Jesus is the only way to God but your original question was "are there different ways to come to Jesus?" Specicifically Arsenios would say the sacraments of baptism, marraige, communion etc is the way but he would say that way is shrouded in mystery. Whereas I would say that the way is thru the reality of baptism, marraige, communion etc.
The liturgy vs non liturgical thinking perhaps.

~ in the spiritual sense that is only about 'Christ and the church.' ~

ie:
What is true in baptism : that we have died in Christ ;
needs to be assimulated to become a reality. As real as the actual baptism that people are relying on to save them.

What is true in marraige: that the two have become one ;
needs to be true in the spiritual. It is a 24 - 7 relationship. Whatever you expect from your wife can easily be an expectation of what Christ wants from you.

What is true of communion : that He is our edification ( a food that others know nothing about)
needs to be our daily bread, a continuous feeding on Him.

Being completely aware that the reality of abiding is factual does not carry with it a duality of perception; one minute He's there and the next minute He's gone. Like Peter that's probably how our minds do work so the best that can be done is to bring the mind captive to Christ. (a turning to Christ away from the devil)

Because I said ""it's just life"" and ""life is a constant awareness""" doesn't mean that I have arrived. It just means that I have decided to believe the truth that He is with us always, even to the end of the age
RATHER
than the devil's lies that say God has abandoned us to fight the devil alone as mere natural beings that are just fed animals. The devil bets on that lie that says at first sign of not being fed we will forsake all that Christ offers. Best not to believe the lie to start with.

"A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" John 4:23
That's an inward motion rather than an outward motion is all that I'm saying.
I just don't see how a repetition of words helps when He is Present for actually working thru life lessons if we will give Him of our time.

Edit to add: There's nothing wrong with many times during the day to tell Him that you love him. Perhaps what I object to is the constant reminding oneself that of our previous condition outside of Christ. Because when we take on His name we take on His identity not that of the previous husband. Looking back after taking the plow in hand makes for very crooked paths

 

[“Paisios”]

We know that Jesus is the only way to God but your original question was "are there different ways to come to Jesus?" Specicifically Arsenios would say the sacraments of baptism, marraige, communion etc is the way but he would say that way is shrouded in mystery. Whereas I would say that the way is thru the reality of baptism, marraige, communion etc.
The liturgy vs non liturgical thinking perhaps.

~ in the spiritual sense that is only about 'Christ and the church.' ~

ie:
What is true in baptism : that we have died in Christ ;
needs to be assimulated to become a reality. As real as the actual baptism that people are relying on to save them.

What is true in marraige: that the two have become one ;
needs to be true in the spiritual. It is a 24 - 7 relationship. Whatever you expect from your wife can easily be an expectation of what Christ wants from you.

What is true of communion : that He is our edification ( a food that others know nothing about)
needs to be our daily bread, a continuous feeding on Him.

Being completely aware that the reality of abiding is factual does not carry with it a duality of perception; one minute He's there and the next minute He's gone. Like Peter that's probably how our minds do work so the best that can be done is to bring the mind captive to Christ. (a turning to Christ away from the devil)

Because I said ""it's just life"" and ""life is a constant awareness""" doesn't mean that I have arrived. It just means that I have decided to believe the truth that He is with us always, even to the end of the age
RATHER
than the devil's lies that say God has abandoned us to fight the devil alone as mere natural beings that are just fed animals. The devil bets on that lie that says at first sign of not being fed we will forsake all that Christ offers. Best not to believe the lie to start with.

"A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" John 4:23
That's an inward motion rather than an outward motion is all that I'm saying.
I just don't see how a repetition of words helps when He is Present for actually working thru life lessons if we will give Him of our time.

Edit to add: There's nothing wrong with many times during the day to tell Him that you love him. Perhaps what I object to is the constant reminding oneself that of our previous condition outside of Christ. Because when we take on His name we take on His identity not that of the previous husband. Looking back after taking the plow in hand makes for very crooked paths

Thank you. That was actually very helpful and informative. I guess I keep looking for the constant perception that He is there, even though I am convinced of that reality. You make a lot of sense.

 

[Arsenios]

We know that Jesus is the only way to God but your original question was "are there different ways to come to Jesus?" Specicifically Arsenios would say the sacraments of baptism, marraige, communion etc is the way but he would say that way is shrouded in mystery. Whereas I would say that the way is thru the reality of baptism, marraige, communion etc.
The liturgy vs non liturgical thinking perhaps.

~ in the spiritual sense that is only about 'Christ and the church.' ~

ie:
What is true in baptism : that we have died in Christ ;
needs to be assimulated to become a reality. As real as the actual baptism that people are relying on to save them.

What is true in marraige: that the two have become one ;
needs to be true in the spiritual. It is a 24 - 7 relationship. Whatever you expect from your wife can easily be an expectation of what Christ wants from you.

What is true of communion : that He is our edification ( a food that others know nothing about)
needs to be our daily bread, a continuous feeding on Him.

Being completely aware that the reality of abiding is factual does not carry with it a duality of perception; one minute He's there and the next minute He's gone. Like Peter that's probably how our minds do work so the best that can be done is to bring the mind captive to Christ. (a turning to Christ away from the devil)

Because I said ""it's just life"" and ""life is a constant awareness""" doesn't mean that I have arrived. It just means that I have decided to believe the truth that He is with us always, even to the end of the age
RATHER
than the devil's lies that say God has abandoned us to fight the devil alone as mere natural beings that are just fed animals. The devil bets on that lie that says at first sign of not being fed we will forsake all that Christ offers. Best not to believe the lie to start with.

"A time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" John 4:23
That's an inward motion rather than an outward motion is all that I'm saying.
I just don't see how a repetition of words helps when He is Present for actually working thru life lessons if we will give Him of our time.

Edit to add: There's nothing wrong with many times during the day to tell Him that you love him. Perhaps what I object to is the constant reminding oneself that of our previous condition outside of Christ. Because when we take on His name we take on His identity not that of the previous husband. Looking back after taking the plow in hand makes for very crooked paths

I have been dealing with this same issue that you are in - Your encounter with God has never left you, and has been life-defining for you in His Ever-Presence... My problem differs from yours in that I arrived there outside the Christian Faith, and indeed outside ANY faith at all... So for me the issue that does not seem to be an issue for you is that I most certainly CANNOT tell people to DO what I did in order to encounter God as I did... So that my problem is: "How can I encounter people in such a manner that they will be discipled as Christ wants them discipled, and which was at root the means of my personal [and carnal-secular] approach to Him, which I followed while denying the existence of Him Who by His encounter with me gave me His Life...

All YOU have to do is say: Become a Christian...
And I say the same, except for this:

When I asked God, [after He scandalized me by telling me I actually was a Christian,] "WHERE do You want me to learn to BE a Christian, Lord?" He sent me to the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church - And it was there that I encountered a Community of people who knew God as I know God - Only way better... And I encountered them in person [rarely] and in the Lives of the Saints, and in the writings of the Holy Fathers [esp in the Philokalia]... These were very obviously MY GUYS! I had spent 14 years finding no other such Community...

But our common problem may have this in common - eg That we cannot point to our specific discipling by another to enable others to encounter God as we have encountered Him, with such long-term outcomes... And yet, this is what the Ancient Faith has done for 2000 years now, steadily and regularly, where Saints in Union with God have been produced who all report a commonality of discipleship that can be found in the discipling of that Church...

The Great Commission was to the Apostles, and through them to the Churches they established, throughout ALL the world, to BE YE DISCIPLING ALL THE PEOPLES [of the earth]... The Church is for the discipling of the nations - Teaching them ALL that Christ had commanded them [His Apostles] to be carefully [and even meticulously] observing, and Baptizing them, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

So for me, you see, the issue of bringing others to knowing God in Union with Him, is an issue of directing them to the discipling of the Church that Christ established through His Holy Apostles... And for you, it seems to be by referring them to a saved style of Life which you now can discern having encountered God in such a profound way... My criticism of your approach is that it requires a certain re-inventing of the wheel, but more than that, it actually requires the encounter which you have had, which Shoes is pressing you for HOW to have THAT encounter, which of course neither you nor I can give him...

What a conversation!

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

I have been dealing with this same issue that you are in - Your encounter with God has never left you, and has been life-defining for you in His Ever-Presence... My problem differs from yours in that I arrived there outside the Christian Faith, and indeed outside ANY faith at all... So for me the issue that does not seem to be an issue for you is that I most certainly CANNOT tell people to DO what I did in order to encounter God as I did... So that my problem is: "How can I encounter people in such a manner that they will be discipled as Christ wants them discipled, and which was at root the means of my personal [and carnal-secular] approach to Him, which I followed while denying the existence of Him Who by His encounter with me gave me His Life...

All YOU have to do is say: Become a Christian...
And I say the same, except for this:

When I asked God, [after He scandalized me by telling me I actually was a Christian,] "WHERE do You want me to learn to BE a Christian, Lord?" He sent me to the Eastern Orthodox Christian Church - And it was there that I encountered a Community of people who knew God as I know God - Only way better... And I encountered them in person [rarely] and in the Lives of the Saints, and in the writings of the Holy Fathers [esp in the Philokalia]... These were very obviously MY GUYS! I had spent 14 years finding no other such Community...

But our common problem may have this in common - eg That we cannot point to our specific discipling by another to enable others to encounter God as we have encountered Him, with such long-term outcomes... And yet, this is what the Ancient Faith has done for 2000 years now, steadily and regularly, where Saints in Union with God have been produced who all report a commonality of discipleship that can be found in the discipling of that Church...

The Great Commission was to the Apostles, and through them to the Churches they established, throughout ALL the world, to BE YE DISCIPLING ALL THE PEOPLES [of the earth]... The Church is for the discipling of the nations - Teaching them ALL that Christ had commanded them [His Apostles] to be carefully [and even meticulously] observing, and Baptizing them, in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit...

So for me, you see, the issue of bringing others to knowing God in Union with Him, is an issue of directing them to the discipling of the Church that Christ established through His Holy Apostles... And for you, it seems to be by referring them to a saved style of Life which you now can discern having encountered God in such a profound way... My criticism of your approach is that it requires a certain re-inventing of the wheel, but more than that, it actually requires the encounter which you have had, which Shoes is pressing you for HOW to have THAT encounter, which of course neither you nor I can give him...

What a conversation!

Arsenios

6 in one 1/2 dozen in the other you say? And yet we both encountered in the same way. Truly is a paradox.

 

[Arsenios]

6 in one 1/2 dozen in the other you say? And yet we both encountered in the same way. Truly is a paradox.

I robustly deny your "sigh"...

Because:

God said "I will have Mercy on whom I WILL have mercy..."
And:
"They will find Me who are not seeking Me!"

I am of the opinion that God spread His Grace heavily on the Protestant Reformation...
But NOT the Grace He gave to His Apostles and through them to His Apostolic Church...
I have seen with my own eyes people,
Blessed and holy people -
And I think you may well be one of them -
Who are recipients of this Grace...
I KNOW for a fact that I was one of them
Outside all religious belief...

So - What do you call two Orthodox Medical Doctors?

Arsenios


Answer: A Pair o' Doc's...
Truly 'tis a paradox, n'est pas?

Time to take a long walk
Off one o' those short docks!
Then maybe I can stop with the bad jokes!

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

..... I am of the opinion that God spread His Grace heavily on the Protestant Reformation...
But NOT the Grace He gave to His Apostles and through them to His Apostolic Church...
....

In what way do you define the difference?

 

[Arsenios]

In what way do you define the difference?

Well, for one, He did not give the Grace of the Mysteries of the Church to Protestant churches...
He did not give the Grace of Baptism into Christ...
He still, on an individual basis, perhaps gave the Grace of entry into the 'Spiritual Body of Christ' in a kind of Mystical way, on the basis of: "I will have Mercy on whom I WILL have Mercy..." But what was given there was given on an individual, case by case, basis... He did not give the Grace of the (Protestant) Church(es) to enter people into the Body of Christ by the Mystery of Baptism through the Seal of the Annointing [Chrismation/Christing]... He did not give the Mystery of Confession and Absolution which is a function of the Church - Instead, He did it all on a case by case basis Himself - this is why we have this very Protestant doctrine of "Baptism of the Holy Spirit", pointing to Cornelius and his party... Because they had rejected the Church as they knew Her, eg the Latin West, which was itself apostacised from the Orthodox Communion for some 500 years by then, and God took them as best He could outside the Economy [Household] by which He arranged Salvation at the beginnings...

But remember, this is but my opinion - It is not any Church doctrine of which I am aware...

But what is seen is the total absence in the Protestant denominations of discipling unto Salvation where one's Spiritual formation is being discipled by the Church, as it is done in all Apostolic Churches with great consistency of application... [Less so with Vatican II Latins, mind you!] But consistently in evidence throughout the world, and yet not a feature at all in the Protestant churches...

The Mystery of Marriage was not given either, and the Protestants have pretty much dismissed Marriage as a Church Sacrament - And now wonder why secular homosexual marriages are becoming a feature of our post-modern political landscape... Marriage has become a kind of human pledge of allegiance to each other between a man and a woman before God, and that cannot hold back much of anything in terms of simply being an available civil contract for any entrants...

But what is most in evidence as missing is the steady and consistent production of Saints in the Protestant churches - And yes, they call themselves Saints, but it is not demonstrable by their works - And the EOC steadily puts forth Living Saints year after year... My first parish Priest has one for his Spiritual Father - He comes into the room for confession, sits down, is told his sins, is given absolution, is counselled in dealing with them in the future, is mentally put in order and at peace, and is dismissed... These are not common events in Orthodoxy, but they exist and can be found... Prior to 1054, Ireland was known as the Isle of Saints - Their Coptic Cross ancient Churches produced a LOT of Saints prior to the Latin Apostasis... After it, under Papal Supremacy, the flow became a mere trickle... Grace was driven from the Emerald Isle...

The mere existence of the Apostolic Churches is a great blessing wherever they can be found, upon the communities in which they are found - The expression throughout the Middle east among the Islamics is: An Orthodox presence, what a Blessing: No Orthodox, what a pity! Things just normally are better when an Apostolic Church functions in a community - No particular reasons given... We know the reason: We PRAY day and night for the community, for its members, and for their leaders... Even as we are being persecuted by them... It is the Way of Christ in the world... The Serpent pursues the Woman...

And we are now in America, and the whole of it is for us a huge mission field of people starving for the Truth...

I have seen TONS of Grace in the Protestant Churches...

And they ALL self-destruct -

And Orthodoxy is not immune either...


Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

...... unsubscribing ... it's been an interesting conversation ... thanks all!