STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

[yeshuaslavejeff]

My old brain is still muddled...

new brain: 2 Focus your minds on the things above, not on things here on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God. 4 When the Messiah, who is our life, appears, then you too will appear with him in glory!

(Colossians 3 biblegateway.com CJB)

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Aaahhh....
I asked the question:
What do you understand by God's Grace?
Is it created for man?
You reply with Col 3:3
You life is hidden...
...

YHWH'S TORAH >
I will never forget your precepts, for with them you have made me alive.
Psalm 119:93 CJB
YHWH'S GRACE >
YHWH Echad with us.
YHWH One with us.
John 17

unbelievable! over-awestruck! unimaginable !

 

[Arsenios]

unbelievable! over-awestruck! unimaginable !

OK - So then my Theological question for you is this:
This Grace which is unbelievable and unimaginable...
Does God create it for us that we be saved?

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

new brain: 2 Focus your minds on the things above, not on things here on earth. 3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God. 4 When the Messiah, who is our life, appears, then you too will appear with him in glory!

(Colossians 3 biblegateway.com CJB)

Well, my new one was muddled as well...
Actually, just one brain...
Deteriorating with time...
Brain and Mind are not the same...

Arsenios

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Well, my new one was muddled as well...

Understood. Not permitted to post very much about this (on this site).

Perhaps YHWH will provide a way over the next two years ...... somewhere .... somehow.....

 

[Arsenios]

Understood. Not permitted to post very much about this (on this site).

Perhaps YHWH will provide a way over the next two years ...... somewhere .... somehow.....

Admirable restraint...

And...

A generous hope!

Degeneration of the brain is but preparation for when we lose the brain altogether at death...

I have seen the elderly both dementiated AND living in His Joy...

As for myself, I just want to die joyfully in my sleep...
Like Grand-Pa did on his way to Church...
And not screaming and cursing like his three passengers!


Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

These are important things, and worthy of all thought...
Yet we are but at the verbal beginnings here...
The Holy Fathers were Neptic Hesychasts for a reason...

Closing the door of one's closet comes only at the end of the narrow and straited Way...
In afflictions...

Arsenios

I didn't mean to imply that we were at, or even near, the end of discussion. I was just stopping to pause and enjoy the view at this point on this mountain path...it is a pleasant but tiring walk...

 

[Arsenios]

I didn't mean to imply that we were at, or even near, the end of discussion. I was just stopping to pause and enjoy the view at this point on this mountain path...it is a pleasant but tiring walk...

An untrodden path is always a new labor...
I am amazed at your sticking with it...

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

An untrodden path is always a new labor...
I am amazed at your sticking with it...

Arsenios

Well, (as I was trying to communicate in my earlier post), I seem to have been blessed with some good travel companions at present.

 

[“Paisios”]

OK - So then my Theological question for you is this:
This Grace which is unbelievable and unimaginable...
Does God create it for us that we be saved?

Arsenios

Is God's Grace a creation of His, or is it a part of His nature, and a manifestation of His love?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

@~Cassia~ , @yeshuaslavejeff , @Gracia Singh , and @Arsenios (and anyone else I might have missed)

I just want to thank you all for this thread. It is fascinating for me, and very informative. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that this has, in my short time on CF, been the most profitable thread in which I have been involved, and the level of courtesy and graciousness within it has been wonderful.

Weighty matters, and much to ponder.

Thank you for your participation. It's helped to narrow my own research to the down-payment of the inheritance as being participation with Christ in His work. Patterns are of particular interest of what I'm finding to avoid. Bowing out of further dialog as it seems to not be invited except to pray for that which is being set forth by Arsenios. Something that I don't agree with.

 

[“Paisios”]

Thank you for your participation. It's helped to narrow my own research to the down-payment of the inheritance as being participation with Christ in His work. Patterns are of particular interest of what I'm finding to avoid. Bowing out of further dialog as it seems to not be invited except to pray for that which is being set forth by Arsenios. Something that I don't agree with.

Sad to hear that. I have valued your opinions, and am interested to see some of the contrast between yours and Arsenios' views (and always like those of others as well), as it makes the discussion richer in my opinion. I will miss your presence in this thread.

 

[Arsenios]

Is God's Grace a creation of His, or is it a part of His nature, and a manifestation of His love?

You get the blue ribbon!

Saving Grace, as some like to call it, is UN-created, for it is God Himself...

You covered for your brother who skipped the querie!

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you for your participation. It's helped to narrow my own research to the down-payment of the inheritance as being participation with Christ in His work. Patterns are of particular interest of what I'm finding to avoid. Bowing out of further dialog as it seems to not be invited except to pray for that which is being set forth by Arsenios. Something that I don't agree with.

If I beseech your toes with my tears, would you please reconsider?

Thank-you for your Grace-rich prayers for my words here...

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

You get the blue ribbon!

Saving Grace, as some like to call it, is UN-created, for it is God Himself...

You covered for your brother who skipped the querie!

Arsenios

That is my understanding of it. I'm glad to see that on occasion I'm not a complete fool.

 

[Arsenios]

That is my understanding of it.

Well, the reason for it is not far to see - Lucifer is our enemy and wants us dead, and has great deceptive power over us, but not if God is conjoined with us and in us and us in His Body... In that configuration, you see, the forces of darkness have no power over us, unless we desire them to have it...

We have safety because we are conjoined with and in Christ's Body...

A late stage of discipleship...

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

Well, the reason for it is not far to see - Lucifer is our enemy and wants us dead, and has great deceptive power over us, but not if God is conjoined with us and in us and us in His Body... In that configuration, you see, the forces of darkness have no power over us, unless we desire them to have it...

We have safety because we are conjoined with and in Christ's Body...

A late stage of discipleship...

Arsenios

Okay then...

Going back to your original post then...

In this fallen life upon earth in this fallen creation:

Where and how does discipleship begin?
And where does it end?
And how does it proceed?

The matter arises in Romans 8:29-30

For whom He did foreknow,
He also did foreordain
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Moreover whom he did foreordain,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

This clearly shows the actions of God in the life of His disciples...
And it lists them sequentially...
So are they progressive stages of discipleship?
And if yes, what actions on the part of the disciple are appropriate for each?
And what are the features of each of them?
eg What do they look like?

The first two, God's fore-knowledge, and His fore-ordaining, are perhaps more theological than practical, for they have to do with God's inner workings, and not with anything of which we can know...

But the last three are the impact of the first two on those to whom the Call of God falls, and then after that call, the Justification by God, and then finally, the Glorification of the disciple by God...

And perhaps we can then add the sending forth by God of those who have been Glorified by God to disciple nations... eg The "Apostle-izing" of the Disciples...

I remember Paul's near lament for "Those Called to be Apostles..."

1 Corinthians 4:9-16

Since Paul commands all his followers to become as he is and describes in this passage, can we find stages of discipleship here as well?

eg Is this evidence of attainment or is its practice a means of attainment in discipleship?

Is this what discipleship looks like?

Arsenios

If these are the stages of discipleship, and you have stated that being conjoined with Christ is a later stage of discipleship, then which of this that you mentioned are we talking about? Glorification? And to quote you, what actions on the part of the disciple are appropriate here, given that grace is a part of God's nature? Isn't it dependent on Him, especially at this point?

 

[Arsenios]

If these are the stages of discipleship, and you have stated that being conjoined with Christ is a later stage of discipleship, then which of this that you mentioned are we talking about? Glorification? And to quote you, what actions on the part of the disciple are appropriate here, given that grace is a part of God's nature? Isn't it dependent on Him, especially at this point?

They are one way of looking at discipleship as a matter of the progressive development of the human soul
from its spiritual beginnings where God is the active agent, and they are known and caused by God:
From the very beginning:
"Whom God did foreknow..."
To its conclusion:
"These also He did Glorify."

Now I have a confession to make - Because I was trying, in my approach to Christianity, to simply make sense out of the myriad of writings I found there - And I was not doing very well, until I ran into Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos of Nafpakta in Greece, and he laid it our for me over and oveer and over...

So perhaps we can jump for awhile to his understanding of the threre stages of discipleship across all the Church Fathers, and they are these:
1: Purification of the Heart...
2: Illumination of the Nous...
3: Union with God (Theosis)

Hence everything begins with repentance, and at some point this repentance comes to Illumination by God of the Noetic Eye of the repentant heart of the believer... At this point, repentance becomes more intent and focused on the narrow and straited Way of Christ, and at some point determined by God alone, God conjoines Himself with us and we walk as Paul described,

"We are holding the Mystery of the Faith in a pure (eg purged) conscience..."
"Not I, but Christ IN me..."
"For we have the Nous of Christ..."

This last is an extraordinary statement, and reflects the fact that in a God-bearing Elder, his own will has been so crucified, and his calling on the Name of the Lord has been so engrained, that he only knows God's will, for he or she is One in Christ... He or she can no longer differentiate between their will and God's will, for they are One and the same will...

This condition is the perfection of the Faith in a person - It is maturity in the Faith... All that is less is working toward it, and there aren't a whole lot of folks at the grocery store or hereabouts that actually ARE mature in the Faith... Truth be known, there are not a lot of them in monasteries either... They are extremely rare to find... They do exist... They are the Holy Fathers and the Holy Mothers of the Christian Faith, and Grace pours forth from them...

So what does it look like?

Afflictions... Look at Paul - So much Grace in visions and visitations - And God permitted Satan to place a "thorn" in his flesh, and would not remove it even when thrice asked by Paul... So the person in this condition becomes weak... And not only weak but afflicted... And occuppied resisting the affliction...

And what does Christ SAY to Paul: "My Grace is sufficient unto you..." And: "My Strength if perfected in weakness..."

And it is for this reason that Paul glories in his infirmities, because he knows, and bears witness in this epistle, that it is his infirmities that herald the perfecting of God's Strength in him...

We already know, from 1Cor 4:9-16 , what this high calling looks like - The Apostolic Calling - A calling that involves ALL the Gifts of the Spirit... The worldly life of such a one as these is blessed worldly misery and affliction... As appointed to death...

And remember, the Way, if undertaken, should not be abandoned:
2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world
through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled therein, and overcome,
the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the Way of Righteousness,
than,
after they have known it,
to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.

And here we must ask: "What IS this Holy commandment, from which, if we turn away from it, our latter end will be worse than if we had not known it?" It is the Gospel Commandment: "Be ye repenting, because the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" It is here and now... It is not then and there... Christ Himself is the Kingdom of Heaven, and a kingdom consists in the rulership of the King, and this rulership is manifested in the obedience of the ruled to the ruler, and the Commanement of our King is to be repenting from evil and embracing the Good...

Enough for now - I don't think I answered your question...
I kinda went off again...
Old age, you know...
Perambulational digressions, I say!

And besides, I love giving Cassia more reasons to pray for me!

Arsenios

 

[“Paisios”]

They are one way of looking at discipleship as a matter of the progressive development of the human soul
from its spiritual beginnings where God is the active agent, and they are known and caused by God:
From the very beginning:
"Whom God did foreknow..."
To its conclusion:
"These also He did Glorify."

Now I have a confession to make - Because I was trying, in my approach to Christianity, to simply make sense out of the myriad of writings I found there - And I was not doing very well, until I ran into Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos of Nafpakta in Greece, and he laid it our for me over and oveer and over...

So perhaps we can jump for awhile to his understanding of the threre stages of discipleship across all the Church Fathers, and they are these:
1: Purification of the Heart...
2: Illumination of the Nous...
3: Union with God (Theosis)

Hence everything begins with repentance, and at some point this repentance comes to Illumination by God of the Noetic Eye of the repentant heart of the believer... At this point, repentance becomes more intent and focused on the narrow and straited Way of Christ, and at some point determined by God alone, God conjoines Himself with us and we walk as Paul described,

"We are holding the Mystery of the Faith in a pure (eg purged) conscience..."
"Not I, but Christ IN me..."
"For we have the Nous of Christ..."

This last is an extraordinary statement, and reflects the fact that in a God-bearing Elder, his own will has been so crucified, and his calling on the Name of the Lord has been so engrained, that he only knows God's will, for he or she is One in Christ... He or she can no longer differentiate between their will and God's will, for they are One and the same will...

This condition is the perfection of the Faith in a person - It is maturity in the Faith... All that is less is working toward it, and there aren't a whole lot of folks at the grocery store or hereabouts that actually ARE mature in the Faith... Truth be known, there are not a lot of them in monasteries either... They are extremely rare to find... They do exist... They are the Holy Fathers and the Holy Mothers of the Christian Faith, and Grace pours forth from them...

So what does it look like?

Afflictions... Look at Paul - So much Grace in visions and visitations - And God permitted Satan to place a "thorn" in his flesh, and would not remove it even when thrice asked by Paul... So the person in this condition becomes weak... And not only weak but afflicted... And occuppied resisting the affliction...

And what does Christ SAY to Paul: "My Grace is sufficient unto you..." And: "My Strength if perfected in weakness..."

And it is for this reason that Paul glories in his infirmities, because he knows, and bears witness in this epistle, that it is his infirmities that herald the perfecting of God's Strength in him...

We already know, from 1Cor 4:9-16 , what this high calling looks like - The Apostolic Calling - A calling that involves ALL the Gifts of the Spirit... The worldly life of such a one as these is blessed worldly misery and affliction... As appointed to death...

And remember, the Way, if undertaken, should not be abandoned:
2Pe 2:20
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world
through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,
they are again entangled therein, and overcome,
the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21
For it had been better for them not to have known the Way of Righteousness,
than,
after they have known it,
to turn from the Holy Commandment delivered unto them.

And here we must ask: "What IS this Holy commandment, from which, if we turn away from it, our latter end will be worse than if we had not known it?" It is the Gospel Commandment: "Be ye repenting, because the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand!" It is here and now... It is not then and there... Christ Himself is the Kingdom of Heaven, and a kingdom consists in the rulership of the King, and this rulership is manifested in the obedience of the ruled to the ruler, and the Commanement of our King is to be repenting from evil and embracing the Good...

Enough for now - I don't think I answered your question...
I kinda went off again...
Old age, you know...
Perambulational digressions, I say!

I am just giving Cassia more reasons to pray for me!

Arsenios

Wow...lots more to think about and in a slightly new manner.

As to not abandoning the path once started, I am reminded of Matthew 12:43-45. If we start to clean things up, but don't continue and fill ourselves with Him, then, left empty, we are open to all sorts of evil from both within and without, it would seem. Or maybe, as often, I am way off the mark...

 

[Arsenios]

For whom He did foreknow,
He also did foreordain
to be conformed to the image of His Son,
that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did foreordain,
them he also called:
and whom he called,
them he also justified:
and whom he justified,
them he also glorified.

So we have:
Foreknow
Foreordain
Call
Justify
Glorify

The first two are unknowable to man, and do not have a place in discipleship...
The CALL of God is the Call to Repentance...
For those who take on repentance, God Justifies...
And in that Justification, He Glorifies...

These are progressive stages in the discipleship of those who respond with obedience to the Holy Call of God unto Repentance...
At a certain point - In the early Church it was usually after three years of faithful obedience and repentance, one was then Baptized into the Body of Christ, wherein he became Justified in Christ in that his sins were washed clean and he was given the Gift of the Holy Spirit, as Ananias gave Paul when he baptized Paul...

Paul then went and proved in his own flesh the Gospel entrusted to him by Christ, Who had said to Ananias: "For I Myself will lay out before him how much it is necessary for him to suffer for My Name's Sake." (My translation)

You see, Paul's blinding encounter with the Risen Christ on the Road to Damascus was the Call of God to him unto repentance, and he proved faithful, being already prepared by his discipleship under the Pharisees in great zeal, yet now having his eyes opened after having seen how blind he had been... So that he was baptized after but three days of fasting and prayer, after his eyes had been given back their sight... And as it were scales fell from his eyes... The serpent's blinding... Now gone...

So Holy is the Call of God that it is now often seen by many Protestants as Salvation itself...
And who can blame them?
For so Holy is the Call of God...

But it is not yet Justification...
Justification is making a person Right with God...
And THAT means Baptism for remission of sins...
And being given the Seal of the Holy Spirit...

Christ alone can do this...
And He does so through the hands of His Servants...
Who are themselves IN His Holy Body...
As Ananias did give Paul the Holy Spirit...

And following Paul, we all know his account:
"I once knew a man,
whether in the Body or out of the body
I know not...
God knows...

He speaks of his encounter by which he was made a God-Bearing person...
Of which person he wrote:
"Of such an one will I glory..."
Nobody just hangs out in Glorification...
It can last awhile...
It passes...
And therein is man transformed...
Indeed transfigured...

Arsenios