STAGES OF DISCIPLESHIP

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Bishops as His Grace trickles to the Lordship of Sarah.

What does this mean ?

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What does this mean ?

I'm still trying to figger out what the op said.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

1 Corinthians 4:9-16

Since Paul commands all his followers to become as he is and describes in this passage, can we find stages of discipleship here as well?

Not usually. (not most visitors/ readers).

eg Is this evidence of attainment

Sometimes, not always.

is its practice a means of attainment in discipleship?

No - tares can practice as much as true believers can, but it doesn't help tares.

Is this what discipleship looks like?

Sometimes.
There are hundreds of "pictures" or words of encouragement/ description
in YHWH'S WORD of the true disciples.
Those who love YHWH and who are called according to His Purpose,
as many as are willing to turn to Him,
or to be drawn under the tzitzits of Yeshua (as He says elsewhere),
as many as rely on Him and trust Him as His Word Says,
may learn from Him daily,
and may be His disciples, YHWH Willing and YHWH accomplishing
with their full cooperation, willingness and joyousness in righteousness.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

,,,,,
or to be drawn under the tzitzits of Yeshua (as He says elsewhere),
.....

Well that draws a blank but I suddenly have a craving for Greek food.

 

[“Paisios”]

It is a simple exegetical reading of John 3:16...
God loves His Creation, the Kosmos...
"For God so loved the WORLD (kosmos)"
And it is because of His Love for His Creation that He sent His Son, the Only-Begotten...

This does not mean that He does not love man, but that man is a part of God's Kosmos, and it clearly entails the understanding that man's relationship with God's Kosmos is the reason He sent His Christ for man's Salvation... It is not that He loved man so much that He sent His Son, but the whole Kosmos...
God's Curse in the Garden of the serpent and Adam and Eve was immediately followed by his cursing of the earth itself, to be bearing thorns and death... Creation fell BECAUSE Adam fell...

Creation cannot be restored until Adam is restored...

THAT is the point of Salvation...

Here and now...

In an earnest, as Paul writes...

Any help?

Arsenios

Thank you. Helpful, yes. I guess I previously have always thought of the "world" previously in that passage as "people", i.e. "the world of humans"...without any particular basis, except my own humanocentrism. Reading it as you expressed "kosmos" gave me a new perspective.

 

[“Paisios”]

@~Cassia~ , @yeshuaslavejeff , @Gracia Singh , and @Arsenios (and anyone else I might have missed)

I just want to thank you all for this thread. It is fascinating for me, and very informative. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that this has, in my short time on CF, been the most profitable thread in which I have been involved, and the level of courtesy and graciousness within it has been wonderful.

Weighty matters, and much to ponder.

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

What I am trying to present to you here is a radically different way of understanding what it is that we are doing as Christians... We are, by the simple acts of repentance that we do, IF done according to Apostolic Discipleship, gaining our original inheritance, and this inheritance is to have the place between God and His creation... In this regard, primordial powers are involved, wherein if we have enough faith, we can ask a mountain to move to the sea, and it will do so... Paul in the ship knew it would be lost in the storm... These are NOT the focus of discipleship, which is repentance from sin, the overcoming of sin... The engagement of primordial powers that create creation and control it, to whatever degree, even if at all, are merely consequences of the engagement of God's Grace that conjoins Himself with us in Salvation... And the degree and kind of that Grace will vary according to God's purposing IN us... And our job as Christians is not to engage these powers, but to DO the WILL of God IN us...

For the Mystery of the Faith of Christ is: God IN us...

That means something...

The shadow of Peter passing over the sick brought healing...

Western Salvation theories have trivialized what Salvation actually IS...

It is the Marriage of the Lamb...

It is Union With and Within God...

It is not merely imputed Holy words...

Arsenios

What seems plain is that you consider the inheritance enjoyed now to be contained in the heirarchy and the rituals. I can't think of anything that is further from the example of Christ.

 

[Arsenios]

There's many aspect to what you say.
First that according to ordainment grace is upon the heirarchy complete but laypeople must wait for eternity.

Originally the attainment was pre-requisite to the ordaining...
These days, not so much...

That rather leaves out the mirror of glory growing from dim to brighter as the new day dawns. Rather it leaves the glory in the hands of the few.

Percentage-wise, Glorification in this life IS in the hands of a predominantly unknown few...
And all these know the meaning of overcoming sin, wherein the attainment ascends from Glory to Glory...

The Glory of God cannot be 'left' in 'the hands of a few'...
It is Active and Living and Knowing...
We all partake of it by degrees, according to our capacity and God's Measure...
Capacity increases with repentance...
Measure increases with capacity...
IF it be the Will of God...

Too much like bitter wine for my taste.

Vinegar is the drink when we fail to overcome, and when we then have to stop, take stock, pray for guidance, confess to someone we trust eye to eye, and join with David saying: "For I KNOW mine iniquity, and I will take HEED concerning my sin..." And we then devise another attempt...

The Greek word for 'judgement' is 'crisis'... Our work is being negatively evaluated when we taste of bitterness... Thus the bitterness itself can become a blessing - "The Mystery of evil..."

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

What seems plain is that you consider the inheritance enjoyed now to be contained in the heirarchy and the rituals. I can't think of anything that is further from the example of Christ.

The "hierarchy and rituals" are but a PART of the MEANS for the attainment given by God... They do carry the Grace of the Body of Christ, and convey it to those in participation of the Mysteries - Holy Communion, Holy Matrimony, Holy Unction, Holy Baptism, and the rest... But many of the holiest of the Saints lived their lives far from the "hierarchies and rituals" that are so helpful to those struggling at the beginnings of just plain trying to overcome basic personality issues, like anger, sarchasm, stealing, lying, in the normal living of a secular life... St. Isaac of Syria ["Ascetical Homilies" if you like a really heavy work and have the hundred dollars to spare] was made Patriarch of the Syrian Church... He lasted about a year, and fled back into the desert to fast, pray and labor... He sneaked away telling no one... He could not abide the politics... He was a Holy and God-bearing elder and Saint... He wanted to be ALONE with God... And had found himself drawn into the SERVICE of secular ekklesiastical 'interests' - And flat out got out of Dodge... Midnight exit...

The higher attainments are normally not a function of the clergy, but of the monastics... Who forsake all for the sake of the Kingdom of God, becoming Saints in that endeavor... Some Lay people as well, and the marriage bed and its progeny are blessed, but as Paul said: "I would that you become as I am..." eg Celibate and poor and consecrated wholly to God...

The laity [I am one of these, btw] follow the same path as the monastics, but simply with more (and vital) distractions from prayer... Prayer without ceasing is not easy to attain in a house full of children and all the chores of running that household... One simply must keep focused on the little ones...

But to be clear, I am a Lay Christian and NOT a monastic, and I most assurredly do not "consider the inheritance enjoyed now to be contained in the heirarchy and the rituals." That is simply a silly notion... There is certainly Great Holiness, in the gatherings of those called out from the world unto God, in the Services of the Body of Christ our God - The Ekklesia... And the Ox threshing the wheat is not muzzled, no question... But everyone knows that the road to hell is paved with the skulls of priests...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Perhaps Jesus' Prayer in John 17 ?
Still only "a few", as always,
as always throughout Scripture,
as always throughout history,

but very sweet truth "for taste",
while still upon the tongue speaking and/or meditating,
though
still, yes ,
perhaps bitter when it reaches the stomach (understanding?) ....

What do you understand by God's Grace?
Is it created by God for us?

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Originally the attainment was pre-requisite to the ordaining...
These days, not so much...



Percentage-wise, Glorification in this life IS in the hands of a predominantly unknown few...
And all these know the meaning of overcoming sin, wherein the attainment ascends from Glory to Glory...

The Glory of God cannot be 'left' in 'the hands of a few'...
It is Active and Living and Knowing...
We all partake of it by degrees, according to our capacity and God's Measure...
Capacity increases with repentance...
Measure increases with capacity...
IF it be the Will of God...



Vinegar is the drink when we fail to overcome, and when we then have to stop, take stock, pray for guidance, confess to someone we trust eye to eye, and join with David saying: "For I KNOW mine iniquity, and I will take HEED concerning my sin..." And we then devise another attempt...

The Greek word for 'judgement' is 'crisis'... Our work is being negatively evaluated when we taste of bitterness... Thus the bitterness itself can become a blessing - "The Mystery of evil..."

Arsenios

Bitterness of the Old testement isn't the same as Christians are meant to experience bitterness in the New Testament.

The old testament refers to "the angry discontent of a rebellious person" resulting from the "poison venom of the serpent".

Look at these results from a search of Strong's Concordance on the word bitter or bitterness in the Hebrew

4751 mar mar or (feminine) marah {maw-raw'}; from 4843; bitter (literally or figuratively); also (as noun) bitterness, or (adverbially) bitterly:--+ angry, bitter(-ly, -ness), chafed, discontented, X great, heavy.

4805 mriy mer-ee' from 4784; bitterness, i.e. (figuratively) rebellion; concretely, bitter, or rebellious:--bitter, (most) rebel(-lion, -lious).

4846 mrorah mer-o-raw' or mrowrah {mer-o-raw'}; from 4843; properly, bitterness; concretely, a bitter thing; specifically bile; also venom (of a serpent):--bitter (thing), gall.

There are other references in the OT but these are the usual meaning. There is, however, only 4 meanings for the same words in the NT.
When bitterness is spoken of in the NT believer it refers to a bitter and violent piercing and makes no mention of anger, discontent or rebellion.

4087. pikraino pik-rah'-ee-no from 4089; to embitter (literally or figuratively):--be (make) bitter.

4088. pikria pik-ree'-ah from 4089; acridity (especially poison), literally or figuratively:--bitterness.

4089. pikros pik-ros' perhaps from 4078 (through the idea of piercing); sharp (pungent), i.e. acrid (literally or figuratively):--bitter.

4090. pikros pik-roce' adverb from 4089; bitterly, i.e. (figuratively) violently:--bitterly.

It seems to me that satan can still bite the new creation of believers, sometimes using those closest to us to inflict the pain.
Jesus' saving grace saves us from the anger, discontent and rebellion but not from the pain involved from the poison inflicted on tender hearts, made more tender from association with Jesus. Jesus' compassion always shone through His pain, but no doubt Satan inflicted serious poison on His soul, probably more than any other.

It also helps to see and prove His overcoming to the new creation ....

 

[Arsenios]

@~Cassia~ , @yeshuaslavejeff , @Gracia Singh , and @Arsenios (and anyone else I might have missed)

I just want to thank you all for this thread. It is fascinating for me, and very informative. Indeed, I would go so far as to say that this has, in my short time on CF, been the most profitable thread in which I have been involved, and the level of courtesy and graciousness within it has been wonderful.

Weighty matters, and much to ponder.

These are important things, and worthy of all thought...
Yet we are but at the verbal beginnings here...
The Holy Fathers were Neptic Hesychasts for a reason...

Closing the door of one's closet comes only at the end of the narrow and straited Way...
In afflictions...

Arsenios

 

[Citizen of the Kingdom]

Bitterness of the Old testement isn't the same as Christians are meant to experience bitterness in the New Testament.

The old testament refers to "the angry discontent of a rebellious person" resulting from the "poison venom of the serpent".

Look at these results from a search of Strong's Concordance on the word bitter or bitterness in the Hebrew

4751 mar mar or (feminine) marah {maw-raw'}; from 4843; bitter (literally or figuratively); also (as noun) bitterness, or (adverbially) bitterly:--+ angry, bitter(-ly, -ness), chafed, discontented, X great, heavy.

4805 mriy mer-ee' from 4784; bitterness, i.e. (figuratively) rebellion; concretely, bitter, or rebellious:--bitter, (most) rebel(-lion, -lious).

4846 mrorah mer-o-raw' or mrowrah {mer-o-raw'}; from 4843; properly, bitterness; concretely, a bitter thing; specifically bile; also venom (of a serpent):--bitter (thing), gall.

There are other references in the OT but these are the usual meaning. There is, however, only 4 meanings for the same words in the NT.
When bitterness is spoken of in the NT believer it refers to a bitter and violent piercing and makes no mention of anger, discontent or rebellion.

4087. pikraino pik-rah'-ee-no from 4089; to embitter (literally or figuratively):--be (make) bitter.

4088. pikria pik-ree'-ah from 4089; acridity (especially poison), literally or figuratively:--bitterness.

4089. pikros pik-ros' perhaps from 4078 (through the idea of piercing); sharp (pungent), i.e. acrid (literally or figuratively):--bitter.

4090. pikros pik-roce' adverb from 4089; bitterly, i.e. (figuratively) violently:--bitterly.

It seems to me that satan can still bite the new creation of believers, sometimes using those closest to us to inflict the pain.
Jesus' saving grace saves us from the anger, discontent and rebellion but not from the pain involved from the poison inflicted on tender hearts, made more tender from association with Jesus. Jesus' compassion always shone through His pain, but no doubt Satan inflicted serious poison on His soul, probably more than any other.

It also helps to see and prove His overcoming to the new creation ....

The secret to that is not to let the poison set in by not harbouring anger either good or bad, but to clean the slate with God each and every night. Ephesians 4:26
Be angry, and do not sin. Quoted from Psalms 4:4. By NT standards, anger can be either good or bad, depending on motive and purpose. Paul may have been sanctioning righteous indignation, anger at evil. This type of anger hates injustice, immorality, ungodliness, and every other sin. When such anger is unselfish and based on love for God and others, it not only is permissible but commanded. Jesus expressed this righteous anger
Matthew 21:12 Mark 3:5 John 2:15
Even righteous anger can turn to bitterness, so should be set aside by the end of each day. If anger is prolonged, it may become hostile and violate the instruction of Romans 12:17-21

 

[Arsenios]

Bitterness of the Old testement isn't the same as Christians are meant to experience bitterness in the New Testament.

The old testament refers to "the angry discontent of a rebellious person" resulting from the "poison venom of the serpent".

Look at these results from a search of Strong's Concordance on the word bitter or bitterness in the Hebrew

4751 mar mar or (feminine) marah {maw-raw'}; from 4843; bitter (literally or figuratively); also (as noun) bitterness, or (adverbially) bitterly:--+ angry, bitter(-ly, -ness), chafed, discontented, X great, heavy.

4805 mriy mer-ee' from 4784; bitterness, i.e. (figuratively) rebellion; concretely, bitter, or rebellious:--bitter, (most) rebel(-lion, -lious).

4846 mrorah mer-o-raw' or mrowrah {mer-o-raw'}; from 4843; properly, bitterness; concretely, a bitter thing; specifically bile; also venom (of a serpent):--bitter (thing), gall.

There are other references in the OT but these are the usual meaning. There is, however, only 4 meanings for the same words in the NT.
When bitterness is spoken of in the NT believer it refers to a bitter and violent piercing and makes no mention of anger, discontent or rebellion.

4087. pikraino pik-rah'-ee-no from 4089; to embitter (literally or figuratively):--be (make) bitter.

4088. pikria pik-ree'-ah from 4089; acridity (especially poison), literally or figuratively:--bitterness.

4089. pikros pik-ros' perhaps from 4078 (through the idea of piercing); sharp (pungent), i.e. acrid (literally or figuratively):--bitter.

4090. pikros pik-roce' adverb from 4089; bitterly, i.e. (figuratively) violently:--bitterly.

Thank-you - A great study on bitterness -
I was simply using vinegar to honor your reference to it as "bitter wine"... Pikria is the term from which it came, unless I am all wet...

It seems to me that satan can still bite the new creation of believers, sometimes using those closest to us to inflict the pain.

It sure happened with David... And yes, no one is so high that they cannot fall... Lucifer the Glorious Light Bearer fell wretchedly to Pride...

Jesus' saving grace saves us from the anger, discontent and rebellion but not from the pain involved from the poison inflicted on tender hearts, made more tender from association with Jesus.

That pain is a treasury of God's Grace...

The Peace given by Christ is not the world's peace...
It is transcendant in the face of worldly tribulations...

Jesus' compassion always shone through His pain,

And we are to follow Him...

but no doubt Satan inflicted serious poison on His soul, probably more than any other.

He ASCENDED the Cross - "I have overcome the world..."

It also helps to see and prove His overcoming to the new creation ....

We can only prove His overcoming in our own flesh, as Paul teaches...

Col_1:24
(I) Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you,
and fill up that which is behind
of the afflictions of Christ
in my flesh
for his body's sake,
which is the Church:

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

The secret to that is not to let the poison set in by not harbouring anger either good or bad, but to clean the slate with God each and every night. Ephesians 4:26
Be angry, and do not sin. Quoted from Psalms 4:4. By NT standards, anger can be either good or bad, depending on motive and purpose. Paul may have been sanctioning righteous indignation, anger at evil. This type of anger hates injustice, immorality, ungodliness, and every other sin. When such anger is unselfish and based on love for God and others, it not only is permissible but commanded. Jesus expressed this righteous anger
Matthew 21:12 Mark 3:5 John 2:15
Even righteous anger can turn to bitterness, so should be set aside by the end of each day. If anger is prolonged, it may become hostile and violate the instruction of Romans 12:17-21

Great post on anger...

Orthodoxy understands that injunction - "Be angry and do not sin" - to mean much as you say above, but more focused on your SELF - That self that desires sin, and which you are in discipleship to DENY... A definite lack of sympathy on the part of the sinner for his sinfulness that desires evils... The incensive aspect of the soul must hate evil in the soul and stand vigilant within itself against that evil - It therein becomes an internal guard-dog against the incursion of evil thoughts or images...

No small matter...

Exercised, btw, only until the incursion is driven back and then expelled...
Eliminated from one's own soul utterly...
Whatever that may take...

Then back to unceasing prayer...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Thank you. Helpful, yes. I guess I previously have always thought of the "world" previously in that passage as "people", i.e. "the world of humans"...without any particular basis, except my own humanocentrism. Reading it as you expressed "kosmos" gave me a new perspective.

And the best answer to the issue of man's place and purpose in God's creation that I have found to date is the book titled: "The Mystical Theology of the Eastern Church" by Vladimir Lossky... When I first picked it up to start reading it, on a January 1st one year - don't remember which one - a peace settled on me, and a small voice came and said from that peace: "This is the truth..." And I read it that way, and it is stunning and eye-opening... The Faith of Christ which He discipled to His Disciples is NOT Religious Observances... Those are known to Orthodoxy as "the disease of religion", and are apparent throughout the world...

Most gloss over the term "world" in John 3:16 - I did, until I translated the Greek - KOSMOS...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

I'm still trying to figger out what the op said.

Which op?
I couldn't understand it either...
Not unusual for me, mind you...


Arsenios

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

understand

Colossians 3:3 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God.

 

[Arsenios]

Colossians 3:3 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God.

My old brain is still muddled...

Forgive me...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

Colossians 3:3 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with the Messiah in God.

Aaahhh....
I asked the question:
What do you understand by God's Grace?
Is it created for man?
You reply with Col 3:3
You life is hidden...
eg It is not to be visible...
eg Not to be discussed...
Got it!
Thank-you!

Arsenios