Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[Heber Book List]

It is not my intention to derail the thread, so I will only say this one time and then I will drop it. Replacement Theology is when the Church claims to replace Israel. It is not RT for a Jew to become a Christian--he does not stop being a Jew to do so. I am a Jew who is a Christian, and it is not RT -- I do not teach RT (I find it absolutely deplorable).

Okay, back to the subject at hand.

That is a great answer... had I said what you say I said. Please read much more carefully what I actually said, instead of responding to what you think I have said. PM's are available if you wish to respond further.

 

[Meowzltov]

SOP says:
we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.

This is inclusive of both groups, both the bilateral approach and the one law approach, it allows for Gentiles to observe Torah without requiring bilaterals to be forced into conceding this is mandatory.

• That Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah and on this forum both Jews and Gentiles that fear G-d and wish to walk in His commandments shall be allowed to do so without recrimination.

No one disagrees with this. It has been a point of misunderstanding only.

1. Likewise there are to be no posts promoting Torah is exclusive to Jews only.

I don't think anyone has ever said that following Torah is exclusively for Jews -- bilaterals have made room for Gentiles that are uniquely called. I am assuming that this rule is meant to outlaw bilateralism, but it is AMBIGUOUS. It is also a One Law rule, and therefore goes against the grain of the inclusive rule that I quoted first.

All in all, I don't think much progress has been made in the new SOP, which is ambiguous and self contradictory.

Is there any way that the new SOP can allow our Rabbinical Jews to explain Judaism without penalty?

 

[big macher]

I'll post again my take on this. I don't think this should be called a Messianic Judaism board. Since Messianic Judaism is a Judaism this presents issues with our non Jewish brothers and sisters who want to observe whatever level of Torah observance. Messianic Judaism congregations are synagogues not churches. Therefore what some have said is a 2 class system really isn't because Messianic Judaism as a Judaism will naturally be that way with Jewish leadership and the like and how it relates to Jewish believers. I would much prefer maybe Messianic Believers or something similar.

Synagogues whether believing or non believing emulate 'little piece of Israel'. This is where Messianic Judaism wants to head and is heading.

 

[Heber Book List]

I'll post again my take on this. I don't think this should be called a Messianic Judaism board. Since Messianic Judaism is a Judaism this presents issues with our non Jewish brothers and sisters who want to observe whatever level of Torah observance. Messianic Judaism congregations are synagogues not churches. Therefore what some have said is a 2 class system really isn't because Messianic Judaism as a Judaism will naturally be that way with Jewish leadership and the like and how it relates to Jewish believers. I would much prefer maybe Messianic Believers or something similar.

Synagogues whether believing or non believing emulate 'little piece of Israel'. This is where Messianic Judaism wants to head and is heading.

I wish you well with that attempt. I tried years ago to change it to The Messianic Movement but a rule was brought in saying that no posts calling for a change in the name would be allowed. I don't know if that rule is still in force, so tread carefully!

 

[FreeinChrist]

Changing the name is up to the advisors and admins, but it can be considered.

The point of this thread though is not to change the rules or the SOP or the name, but to help explain some of the changes from the previous SOP.

 

[Dave-W]

Wait... A Jew doesn't convert if they move from Judaism to Christianity?

Correct. Christianity is just the gentile version of messianic Judaism.

 

[Dave-W]

or that Messianic Jews or Gentiles must forsake their covenantal responsibilities within Torah

This implies that (all) Jews and/or Gentiles have a covenantal responsibility to keep Torah. A one law belief.

Not necessarily. It is worded in such a way that it can be taken that Jews and gentiles have differing covenantal responsibilities in Torah.

 

[FreeinChrist]

My proposal: Additions in bold underline.

Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose
Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.* While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that believe they are called to do so.

We believe:

• First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
• Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
• Messianic Judaism is also a sect of the Christian Church and inherits much of its theology and practice from it.
  
• That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’.
• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
• That Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah and on this forum both Jews and Gentiles that fear G-d and wish to walk in His commandments shall be allowed to do so without recrimination.

>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<

Posts against these beliefs, or with the following content, will be actioned by staff.
Non-negotiable points:

1. No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or of Yeshua as Messiah, nor will any links to sites or teachers with those views be allowed.**
2. No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people, or that Messianic Jews or Gentiles must forsake their covenantal responsibilities within Torah.
3. No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made invalid for today.
   
4. Likewise there are to be no posts promoting Torah is exclusive to Jews only.
5. No anti-Church or anti-Christian posts will be allowed in keeping in alignment with CF rules in general and as per rule 1.
6. Non-Trinitatrians may not debate MJ or generally Christian theology as per CF rules but may contribute knowledge to topics, such as languages and Rabbinic Judiasm.

Additional Guidelines

Duel Attendance: Those who share our beliefs but do not attend a Messianic congregation and are in another denomination may post in this forum with the stipulation that they will not teach their Churches doctrines here. Please signify this in your signature or title found under your screen name. Please make sure you have read this thread & have agreed to its provisos before posting here. Likewise posters will refrain from criticism of the Churches of those who post here as this may cause offense.

Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe as Yeshua taught that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.


Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage: may be discussed by MJ members only, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

_________________________________________________________________

*Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews and Gentiles of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated. While we understand the reason behind anti-missionary work, we will not tolerate the operation of such on these forums, this means in postings as well as private communication throughout this site.

You make some good points but this thread is not really for rewriting it.

Some of what you bring up involves moderating issues. The fact is, no congregational forum should be using that forum to flame or bash another congregation. That is the same here and has been an issue. For instance, if you are opposed to Catholic beliefs, debate it in General Theology, not here. Catholics cannot come here and defend their beliefs.
But you also should not be seeing other congregational forums posting against MJ beliefs and that has been a problem. To some extent, other congregations can discuss other churches/groups and disagree and why, but it should not be causing a debate. The part about links is a moderating issue, too.

 

[Meowzltov]

a) non-Trinitarians lose the right to debate in MJ. They have no commitment to the overall theology of CF and don't have debating rights in any of the other faith group forums. They should take their debates to the proper assigned areas within CF. This helps overall equality for all the denominational and faith group forums and brings MJ into alignment with them.

Yes, I feel badly for the anti-trinitarian MJ's. ALL MJ positions should have the opportunity to express their opinions in the forum. Isn't there ANY way we can undo their ban?

b) that in the spirit of keeping unity (One New Man) no anti-missionary, anti-Christian, anti-egalitarian (Jew and Gentle as one) links, or links to teachers (eg. Michael Rood) should be allowed. These are inflammatory to the Christians on CF and the Messianics who love them.

I'd expecially like to see the anti-Christian stuff disallowed: by our inclusion of the gospel message we are as much in unity with Christianity as we are with Judaism. The anti-Christian stuff is Hebrew Roots, not MJ.

 

[Meowzltov]

However, what is needed it more awareness among staff as to what is MJ belief.

I hope you realize that the new SOP and current rules being enforced favor only one particular brand of MJ, and penalize another. This site currently does not allow all MJ's to express our views. It is what has been the source of a lot of hostility.

 

[Heber Book List]

If we cannot hope to make changes to the new SOP what is the point of this thread, is it just a sop to us all?

 

[FreeinChrist]

I hope you realize that the new SOP and current rules being enforced favor only one particular brand of MJ, and penalize another. This site currently does not allow all MJ's to express our views. It is what has been the source of a lot of hostility.

The intent is that the forum is not One Law or Two Law. As a site, we have the goalof equality in regards to to the individual's call to follow the Torah.

And there is more. One shouldn't be considered less MJ if they are Gentiles, or if they are Jews who also belong to another denomination. No one who feels called should be discouraged from it. Instead, it would be nice to see a more positive approach toward others.

 

[Heber Book List]

Can I ask a related, but slightly off topic, question?

When you close this thread for 12 hours, I am assuming that you realise that we in Europe, or further east, only get a very short time in which to post on here before our collective bedtime! Why can we NOT have it open during our working day, as well? It is currently 8.35pm in the UK at the moment, so most people here have only a few hours left to the end of today!

 

[FreeinChrist]

If we cannot hope to make changes to the new SOP what is the point of this thread, is it just a sop to us all?

Suggestions are okay, but I just don't want to see the focus turn to rewriting it. Much is from the previous SOP. And some of the issues raised were moderation issues.

 

[big macher]

I hope you realize that the new SOP and current rules being enforced favor only one particular brand of MJ, and penalize another. This site currently does not allow all MJ's to express our views. It is what has been the source of a lot of hostility.

I disagree. There really isn't an brand of Messianic Judaism per se. Messianic Judaism is a Judaism similar similar to non Messianic Judaism counterparts. Once one can accept that and not try to change what Judaism is(whether Judaism or Messianic Judaism then the it's easier to see.

Like I've said before Messianic Judaism goal is not to be counter of non Messianic Judaism. And with this comes how non Jews are or not involved in the synagogue, whether it be non Messianic or Messianic. All of Judaism is pretty united with this. This is a fact of Judaism.

Why? It's very simple. Being Jewish has a VERY strong communal and family emphasis. It has to do with the election of Israel as a family and is corporate.

People have to remember and realize that Messianic Judaism isn't the church. The congregation meets and workships in a synagogue made up primarily of Jews NOT necessarily to appease or attract non Jews.

In Messianic Judaism of course non Jews might not be encouraged to observe Torah as it's obvious because it's Judaism related with the election of Israel. Why does this suprise anyone?

Not saying I agree or disagree with it. I'm more in the middle but lean a very little bit towards Judaism.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Can I ask a related, but slightly off topic question?

When close this thread for 12 hours, I am assuming that you realise that we in Europe, or further east, only get a very short time in which to post on here before our collective bedtime! Why can we NOT have it open during our working day, as well? It is currently 8.35pm in the UK at the moment, so most people here have only a few hours left to the end of today!

Okay. Sorry about that. I will leave it open tonight. We can see how it goes.

 

[Meowzltov]

For instance, if you are opposed to Catholic beliefs, debate it in General Theology, not here. Catholics cannot come here and defend their beliefs.

AMEN!!!

 

[Meowzltov]

I disagree. There really isn't an brand of Messianic Judaism per se

What would you call One Law if not a brand of MJ?

 

[big macher]

What would you call One Law if not a brand of MJ?

One Law isn't Messianic Judaism because one law isn't Judaism. I might call it an off shot of MJ but it's not a brand.

I would like to note just because I don't consider one law a brand of MJ doesn't mean it's heresy. I don't think Baptists are heresy as an example or Catholics.

 

[Meowzltov]

I would much prefer maybe Messianic Believers or something similar.

Unless those of us of the Bilateral Approach are ALSO allowed to express our opinions, they should call this the One Law forum or the Hebrew Roots forum.