Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[FreeinChrist]

I will bring that up to the team.

We aren't going to make everyone happy. The goal here is that all who are called to keep the Torah are encouraged and not discouraged from it. However, any implications that Gentiles or Jews must keep it for their salvation is not okay.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I don't agree with this section. All believers should keep Torah.
Those who don't and who teach others not to follow Torah will be called the
least in heaven if they are saved at all. (Matthew 5:19, John 14:15)

Implying that Christians who do not keep the Torah are not saved is actully a violation of the site flaming rule.

● Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

Not saved means not Christian.

 

[pat34lee]

Implying that Christians who do not keep the Torah are not saved is actully a violation of the site flaming rule.

● Stating or implying that another Christian member, or group of members, are not Christian is not allowed.

Not saved means not Christian.

I am implying nothing. Nobody begins by following
the Torah. It must be learned. But not everyone who
calls themselves Christian follow Yeshua. Some make
up their own god by creating their own scriptures. They
are the tares, and will not be removed until Yeshua does
it himself.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Stating it online here though will likely get reported.

 

[big macher]

I see a contradiction here;

1This implies NOT ALL Jews and Gentiles are called to keep Torah. A standard MJ belief*.

2This implies that Yeshua has instructed (all) us (Jews and Gentiles) to keep the Torah of Moses. A one law belief.

3This implies that (all) Jews and/or Gentiles have a covenantal responsibility to keep Torah. A one law belief.

I realize your trying to appease both groups here. But you are setting yourself up for division and divisiveness by attempting to squeeze two opposing beliefs within one statement of purpose.

I see this happening. The one law believer teaches that Yeshua kept the Torah of Moses and has instructed 'us' Jews and Gentiles to keep it (follow me). The Messianic Jew replies back that NOT ALL Jews and/or Gentiles are called to this 'irrevocable calling'. The one law believer responds that both Jews and/or Gentiles MUST NOT forsake our covenantal responsibilities within the Torah. The MJ responds that not ALL have this calling.

And we are right back to were we started........ because of these contractions within the SOP.

*What makes this all the more confusing is this implies that 'we believe'... 'not all Jews are called to keep Torah.

You bother to differentiate the ALL in number one, but you do not differentiate any difference within 2 or 3. 2 states Yeshua HAS instructed us (all of us) to keep Torah (follow him). 3. states both Jews and Gentiles have a covenantal responsibility within Torah. Not some, but all. 2 and 3 contradict 1.

I would like to note that the term 'covenantal responsibilities' are taken explicitly and directly from the UMJC definition of Messianic 'Jews'. And it is being applied to 'us' ALL, both Jews and Gentiles. As if the nations of the world had/have a covenantal responsibility commanded with the Torah given to Moses. You have taken what was solely intended to identify Judaism/Jews and have remanded it for your own 'faith'. A reverse replacement theology.

http://www.levhashem.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/Defining_Messianic_Judaism.pdf

Do a search within this document and tell me how many times the term 'covenantal responsibility' is stated, and who it was talking about. This term was garnered from when I used the UMJC definitions to help define 'Messianic Judaism'. To commandeer this term to apply to gentiles is not really accurate nor fair.

Yea I read that paper and it looks like what the paper said was made into the statement of faith and changed to include non Jews. Which I guess is ok.

However let's face it Messianic Judaism is a denomination and it pretty much has been defined and has an established definition. If we are going by the UMJC paper then it's evident Messianic Judaism is a Judaism. Messianic Judaism being a Judaism presents some issues that would be against the statement of purpose of this group. I'm not saying it's right or wrong. I happen to be a Jewish believer and Judaism doesn't include non Jews like it does Jews. Messianic Judaism by it's definition of being a Judaism does the same but is more laxed because it sees Jews and Gentiles one in Messiah.

Being Jewish and also a believer in Jesus I who retains my Jewish identity and Jewish heritage which includes a level of Torah observance, I would probably appreciate it more if a group that believes Jews and Gentiles both hold to the same Torah standard would be called maybe Messianic Believers or something similar. To say that it's a Judaism for me might present some issues with non Messianic Jews. Maybe I'm wrong.

I would like to say although I'm a Jewish believer who retains his Jewish identity and heritage by a level of Torah observance I am not really agree 100% with Messianic Judaism because I don't like the focus on Judaism which presents issues with non Jews amongst us because of it being a Judaism. I do think that is if a non Jew is called to observe some level of observance than I have to take it as a conviction.

On another note one law theology which generally says if you're not keeping the Law then... Is a bad theology.

 

[yonah_mishael]

All believers should keep Torah.

This is how you interpret the text. I don't agree with how you understand it. This is a forum for a wider range of opinions than just yours.

 

[yonah_mishael]

On another note one law theology which generally says if you're not keeping the Law then... Is a bad theology.

Isn't this what pat34lee just espoused in what I quoted above about all believers being under obligation to keep Torah?

 

[pat34lee]

This is how you interpret the text. I don't agree with how you understand it. This is a forum for a wider range of opinions than just yours.

You are not MJ. You do not have to agree. We are speaking of
MJ standards and rules.

 

[Shimshon]

You are not MJ. You do not have to agree. We are speaking of
MJ standards and rules.

According to the 'invited non-messianic Jews' thread yonah is a member here.

If you want to nominate a (non MJ) Jew for consideration to have member privileges here please PM me as well​

 

[pat34lee]

According to the 'invited non-messianic Jews' thread yonah is a member here.

If you want to nominate a (non MJ) Jew for consideration to have member privileges here please PM me as well​

We have members of other denominations here also.
That does not mean they have a say in the rules, or what
would keep an atheist or homosexual guest from voting
against our (MJ) beliefs?

 

[FreeinChrist]

Atheists can't vote against MJ beliefs.

Let's keep things civil.

 

[pat34lee]

Atheists can't vote against MJ beliefs.
Let's keep things civil.

I posed a legitimate concern. If a guest of whatever
religion may have a say in our rules here, why not an
atheist? Only those who share our beliefs should have
any input to the SOP or rules. That is hard enough, given
the diversity of opinions just within MJ.

 

[FreeinChrist]

He has been posting here a long time. This thread is to answer questions and perhaps make changes in the wording to help clarify the intent that the staff is already set on- not determine the SOF itself.

 

[ContraMundum]

Look...here's my two cents.

One is not allowed to critique another person's theology anyway, so let's take it to it's proper place.

I propose that

a) non-Trinitarians lose the right to debate in MJ. They have no commitment to the overall theology of CF and don't have debating rights in any of the other faith group forums. They should take their debates to the proper assigned areas within CF. This helps overall equality for all the denominational and faith group forums and brings MJ into alignment with them.

b) that in the spirit of keeping unity (One New Man) no anti-missionary, anti-Christian, anti-egalitarian (Jew and Gentle as one) links, or links to teachers (eg. Michael Rood) should be allowed. These are inflammatory to the Christians on CF and the Messianics who love them.

c) Serial reporting should be banned. Reports should be limited to one or two per member per three-month period. Members should be encouraged to talk it out.

 

[ContraMundum]

My proposal: Additions in bold underline.

Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose
Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.* While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that believe they are called to do so.

We believe:

• First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
• Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
• Messianic Judaism is also a sect of the Christian Church and inherits much of its theology and practice from it.
  
• That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’.
• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
• That Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah and on this forum both Jews and Gentiles that fear G-d and wish to walk in His commandments shall be allowed to do so without recrimination.

>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<

Posts against these beliefs, or with the following content, will be actioned by staff.
Non-negotiable points:

1. No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or of Yeshua as Messiah, nor will any links to sites or teachers with those views be allowed.**
2. No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people, or that Messianic Jews or Gentiles must forsake their covenantal responsibilities within Torah.
3. No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made invalid for today.
   
4. Likewise there are to be no posts promoting Torah is exclusive to Jews only.
5. No anti-Church or anti-Christian posts will be allowed in keeping in alignment with CF rules in general and as per rule 1.
6. Non-Trinitatrians may not debate MJ or generally Christian theology as per CF rules but may contribute knowledge to topics, such as languages and Rabbinic Judiasm.

Additional Guidelines

Duel Attendance: Those who share our beliefs but do not attend a Messianic congregation and are in another denomination may post in this forum with the stipulation that they will not teach their Churches doctrines here. Please signify this in your signature or title found under your screen name. Please make sure you have read this thread & have agreed to its provisos before posting here. Likewise posters will refrain from criticism of the Churches of those who post here as this may cause offense.

Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe as Yeshua taught that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.


Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage: may be discussed by MJ members only, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

_________________________________________________________________

*Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews and Gentiles of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated. While we understand the reason behind anti-missionary work, we will not tolerate the operation of such on these forums, this means in postings as well as private communication throughout this site.

 

[FreeinChrist]

Look...here's my two cents.

c) Serial reporting should be banned. Reports should be limited to one or two per member per three-month period. Members should be encouraged to talk it out.

That can't be banned in that the ability to report is uniform through the site, nor are we counting. However, what is needed it more awareness among staff as to what is MJ belief. Also, Tallguy88 and I will be watching reports more closely and will step in if we see spite reporting or a problem developing.

In turn, members need to be more kind to each other. as in cutting down the sarcasm and not accusing each other of violations.

a) non-Trinitarians lose the right to debate in MJ. They have no commitment to the overall theology of CF and don't have debating rights in any of the other faith group forums. They should take their debates to the proper assigned areas within CF. This helps overall equality for all the denominational and faith group forums and brings MJ into alignment with them.

My understanding is that historically this forum encouraged non-Christian Jews to share in discussions regarding Judaism and Torah practice and many other topics and this was desired. Also that Non-Trinitarian Messianics were allowed. However neither could teach against the SOF of the site or the SOP of this forum, which would include links to sites teaching against these things. The standard for all the congregational forums is that debate against the SOF and the SOP of that congregation is not allowed. In fact, not even a member of that forum can debate against their beliefs. For example, even if a member has a Baptist icon, they cannot promote infant baptism for salvation in the Baptist forum, nor post links to sites that teach that.

That said, I don't think we want to be inhospitable about it. I would need input on it.

Keep in mind that non-members of a congregation are allowed to ask questions in congregational forums. That has always been. They can't debate against the beliefs when it comes to the faith.

b) that in the spirit of keeping unity (One New Man) no anti-missionary, anti-Christian, anti-egalitarian (Jew and Gentle as one) links, or links to teachers (eg. Michael Rood) should be allowed. These are inflammatory to the Christians on CF and the Messianics who love them.

If links go against the SOF of the site or the SOP of this forum, then it is a violation - however, if it is to a site for Judaism and is sharing something common to the members here, like the meaning of a particular feast day, then we can certainly give leeway there.

 

[FreeinChrist]

I need some sleep soon so I am closing this for the night and will reopen tomorrow.

 

[FreeinChrist]

opening....

 

[Meowzltov]

The argument you put forward is very similar to the exact opposite - that they become Christians, not Jews. THAT is clearly RT.

It is not my intention to derail the thread, so I will only say this one time and then I will drop it. Replacement Theology is when the Church claims to replace Israel. It is not RT for a Jew to become a Christian--he does not stop being a Jew to do so. I am a Jew who is a Christian, and it is not RT -- I do not teach RT (I find it absolutely deplorable).

Okay, back to the subject at hand.

 

[Heber Book List]

I agree with Contramundum's post but would offer the following:

Was the heading Duel Attendance a Freudian slip? ;-)

The wording suggested in his last paragraph: "**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews and Gentiles of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated. While we understand the reason behind anti-missionary work, we will not tolerate the operation of such on these forums, this means in postings as well as private communication throughout this site" should have the word 'all' inserted, and a comma in the bold type, so that it reads: We welcome all Jews, and Gentiles of any faith