Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Let's be clear in our statement that Messianics are clearly on the side of obedience to the Law of God out of love for our Creator and Redeemer.
It takes on a distinctive meaning when we say it.. because Judaism describes the style.Vis, with respect, that's not a necessary comment because it's not an MJ distinctive. Every sect I know of in Christianity says the same thing- people just mean different things by that.
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another." John 13:34
If there is nothing new in the NT then it should be called the "repeated Testament" and the Yeshua, everything He taught, the Cross, the resurrection, Pentecost etc would all be useless and unnecessary.
....we didn't change the forum as the rules always lent themselves to this way of thinking.....Torah was never a must ...
This does not mean we believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."
"we (CF) do not believe all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so."
You just summarily denied Messiah's message of good news and purpose for coming. Not much to agree on is there? Yeshua spoke, and you believe it was nothing new? Yeshua offered forgiveness of sins, and you believe this is nothing new? Yeshua offered a new covenant through his body, and you deny it even exists today?Two things.
1. There is nothing new in the New Testament.
2. There was no New Testament when these were written. It all refers to the Tanakh, or Old Testament.
I would look up OT examples of the same command, but somehow I doubt it would matter to you.
but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son. 10 Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.
I testify and defend 'this' testimony of God's, whom he gave to Yeshua to speak.11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
You just summarily denied Messiah's message of good news and purpose for coming. Not much to agree on is there? Yeshua spoke, and you believe it was nothing new? Yeshua offered forgiveness of sins, and you believe this is nothing new? Yeshua offered a new covenant through his body, and you deny it even exists today?
There is a testimony that Yeshua gave from God. It was about Messiah, and forgiveness through faith, and a life lived through union with the Spirit of God. For ALL who believe. THIS testimony is what we were commanded to teach and preach. As quoted in the book of John above.
I testify and defend 'this' testimony of God's, whom he gave to Yeshua to speak.
What do you think the death and resurrection were for? Nothing new? Proof that he was THE teacher to lead you back to Moses? Is he just a teacher to you?
You can find the answer to your question right in this thread. Not all Messianics believe they should keep the Torah of Moses. Not all do, and I am including Messianic Jews here. The language used, to me means that CF isn't insisting that all those who wish to attach themselves to this forum have to keep Torah, I mean who's gonna check? It's so that one doesn't tell another that their torah observance isn't enough, or correct or shouldn't be doing any of it (because of being a Gentile).So, my point was why then the need to have language that implies that not all Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles need to "keep the Torah, only those called to do so."
You can find the answer to your question right in this thread. Not all Messianics believe they should keep the Torah of Moses. Not all do, and I am including Messianic Jews here. The language used, to me means that CF isn't insisting that all those who wish to attach themselves to this forum have to keep Torah, I mean who's gonna check? It's so that one doesn't tell another that their torah observance isn't enough, or correct or shouldn't be doing any of it (because of being a Gentile).
IMO, it would've added clarity if the new SOP language said "Torah of Moses" instead of just "Torah." Jews may nit-pick on what exactly is meant by the Torah of 'Moses', but that wouldn't/shouldn't be the cause of debate in this MJ forum.You can find the answer to your question right in this thread. Not all Messianics believe they should keep the Torah of Moses. Not all do, and I am including Messianic Jews here. The language used, to me means that CF isn't insisting that all those who wish to attach themselves to this forum have to keep Torah, I mean who's gonna check? It's so that one doesn't tell another that their torah observance isn't enough, or correct or shouldn't be doing any of it (because of being a Gentile).
That comment is more than a little over the top. It's comments like this that result in a MOD HAT ON intervention to clean up a thread. Would it be a stretch to say that such a comment is indicative of some the the new SOP language that comes across as purposely vague and a departure from what was a satisfactory SOP for a Messianic Judaism forum?This forum has more in common with the Jehovah's Witnesses than with MJism at the moment. Just an observation, and no, I'm not kidding.
This does not mean we believe all Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles must keep the Torah of Moses, only those that are called to do so.
Please elaborate ... i'm not kidding.No, it fits and is apt. Anyone familiar with JW theology would recognize it. I see it. It's here.
You just summarily denied Messiah's message of good news and purpose for coming. Not much to agree on is there? Yeshua spoke, and you believe it was nothing new? Yeshua offered forgiveness of sins, and you believe this is nothing new? Yeshua offered a new covenant through his body, and you deny it even exists today?
Comeon guys ... you both agree on these scriptures ... stop trying so hard to discredit one another the day before Thanksgiving. Bury the hatchet and shake hands.Isaiah 46:8-13
8 Remember this, and shew yourselves men: bring it again to mind, O ye transgressors.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
NO.... not really.. we know the majority of Jews don't keep it. ... Those that do are few and far between... There is not insult intended. This isn't and should be about one up men ship. Remember the highest compliment about faith didn't go to a Jew, Yeshua pointed to the centurion and said he had the greatest faith.Or like saying a lot of gentiles within Messianic Judaism keep Torah better than the Jews. Don't you think that would be just as insulting?
Matt 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Welll.... that flew over the nest. There is no "better" in God's eyes. There is "faith" which moves mountains, or mole hills.. depending on size...Good, let’s all become pagan Romans then.
MJ is about observance of Torah, Festivals, and Traditions, yes it always has been and that is what signifies it's special qualities. A person who starts a thread in MJ talking about how Yeshua did away with the law is going to be off topic here, as well as those who say the festivals mean nothing or tradition means nothing....all off topic to an MJ forum. What is also off topic is to say only certain people can do each of these. And so is it off topic to say your salvation is dependent on you doing each of these.I have a question.... How can anyone claim to be Messianic and not be Torah observant? Is that a conflict with the image of Yeshua who is the epitome of Torah.
The point by several MJ members is that the language of the new MJ SOP is misrepresenting the views of many Messianic Gentiles as well as most all Messianic Jews. Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon now takes on an entirely different meaning which is apparently unsettling to not only many Messianic Gentiles, but also most all Messianic Jews.
The previous SOP made it clear that Torah Observance was a "must"/mandatory requirement for Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles displaying a "Messianic" faith icon. The new SOP language gives the impression that it is no longer a "must" (mandatory) for everyone displaying the "Messianic" faith icon to "keep Torah, only those that are called to do so." Does CF really understand that the language of the new MJ SOP lends an entirely different interpretation to Messianic Judaism. An interpretation that is seen as disparaging to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles that are Torah Observant? The new SOP language basically means the following. Was this really CFs intent ?
While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Messianic Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. Likewise, we don't believe all Messianic Jews must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.
Displaying a "Messianic" faith icon means that Torah Observant is no longer a "must," but rather up to the discretion of each MJ member. Changing my faith icon from "Christian" to "Messianic" was a mistake. It could easily be perceived as sticking one's finger in the eye of another as if I'm approving (which i'm not) of CFs departure from Torah Observance being integral to Messianic Judaism.
Lets work on this but all you all submit something useful instead of us(staff) and we will all turn it around and around till every one is understanding it fully.....not a completely different SOP just tweeking words that are here ok?The problem is if you make it a must. Then the other problem I see is it causes separation between our Christian brothers and sisters by stating we observe out of love God. The question can be 'what do you mean I don't love God'?
Yes we need to be true to saying your salvation is not dependent on these but that it still remains that MJ is distinguished by these three (Torah, Festivals, Tradition)Exactly, It forces ones relationship with God to be dependent on observance to the law.
This is it!!!! We cannot turn MJ into an unwelcome place, so please keep this in mind when you tweek, language must be welcoming.If folks are identifying as MJ, they are wanting to follow the Torah. The SOP has these:
Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.The goal in this forum should be encouraging others to follow the Torah and Yeshua based on the love for G-d. It fits with this (NASB):
No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made invalid for today.
Mat 22:37
And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
and
Deu 6:5
“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might.
The reason we stated it like that is that it is best to have encouragement, and not anything that discourages in subtle or more blunt ways.
AbbaLove your getting it but might need to help us trail back to fewer words when folks begin to submit their tweeks.....the SOP should be brief enough that folks reading will get it in the fewest words possible.It's good to see your posts ... was wondering where you were.
Any disconnects in this thread (the new MJ SOP) is most likely due to how one interprets the meaning of Torah. For example when you say "Torah was never a must" some Messianic Jews make think, "a typical Gentile comment" whether you are referring to the 613 commandments or even the Ten Commandments. Other MJs consider the entire Bible to be the 'Torah of G-d' as expressed by the NT scriptures posted by pat34lee. There are other MJs that believe not only all true Messianics, but even true Christians should honor/observe the appointed Feasts of the Lord.
Sooo, you may be thinkiing -- What is your point?
Every Messianic Jew and Messianic Gentile is called to follow the 'Torah of G-d' as they interpret their understanding of the meaning of Torah and their relationship with G-d. Hopefully, you can understand how the language of new SOP can be interpreted (or misinterpreted) possibly giving the wrong impression than was intended by "we" (CF) ...
It isn't clear if this language is referring to only Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles or inclusive of all Jews and Gentiles which includes all those that don't believe Yeshua is the Son of G-d. My posts were with the understanding that this new "MJ" SOP language is referring to "Messianics" that believe Yeshua is the Son of G-d. Thus, does it make Biblical (OT/NT) sense to a Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile when reading the following language ...
It would be extremely helpful to MJs posting here as well as those displaying another faith icon if you (CF) were to clarify whether the language is referring just to "Messianic" Jews and "Messianic" Gentiles with respect to Messianic Judaism or all Jews and Gentiles. Being that this is an MJ SOP you can appreciate that some of us assumed "we" (CF) was referring to all [Messianic] Jews and [Messianic] Gentiles being that this is the new MJ SOP that replaces an SOP that's inference to Torah Observance was with respect to Messianic Jews. Can you appreciate that some Messianic Jews might be offended when the language implies that not all Jews must keep Torah, only those called to do so.
I don't want Messianic Jews to think that the reason I changed my faith icon from Christian to Messianic was because I agree with the vagueness of the language of the new SOP. A vagueness that could be interpreted as "only those Messianic Jews called to keep the ten commandments, must keep Torah" or even "not all Jews must keep Torah only those Jews called by G-d to keep Torah." I hope you can see how offensive some of the new MJ SOP language coiuld be interpreted by Merssianic Jews, Messianic Gentiles and even Messianic Christians (aka Jewish Roots of Christianity).
Blessings to You and Yours this Thanksgiving.
Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose
Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.* While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.
We believe:
- First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
- Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
- That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’.
- The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
- That Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah and on this forum both Jews and Gentiles that fear G-d and wish to walk in His commandments shall be allowed to do so without recrimination.
>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<Non-negotiable points:
Posts against these beliefs, or with the following content, will be actioned by staff.
- No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or of Yeshua as Messiah**
- No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people, or that Messianic Jews or Gentiles should not keep the commandments in Torah that apply to them
- No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made invalid for today.
- Likewise there are to be no posts promoting Torah is exclusive to Jews only.
Additional Guidelines
Duel Attendance: Those who share our beliefs but do not attend a Messianic congregation and are in another denomination may post in this forum with the stipulation that they will not teach their Churches doctrines here. Please signify this in your signature or title found under your screen name. Please make sure you have read this thread & have agreed to its provisos before posting here.
Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe as Yeshua taught that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.
Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage: may be discussed by MJ members only, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.
_________________________________________________________________
*Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.
**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated. While we understand the reason behind anti-missionary work, we will not tolerate the operation of such on these forums, this means in postings as well as private communication throughout this site.
We could add this in....but also add in that what makes MJ distinctive is their observance of Torah, Festivals and Tradition."The goal in this forum should be encouraging others to follow the Torah and Yeshua based on the love for G-d.
Mat 22:37
And He said to him, “ ‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’
Deu 6:5
“You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might."
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?