Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

[Lulav]

Awesome!

How about this:
MJs believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept. Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.

More succinct! Great!

 

[Truthfrees]

How about this:
MJs believe the Torah of Moses is the halacha that Yeshua practiced. Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.

If we say it like this, no one can tell someone Torah is invalid, AND no one can judge anyone on how they keep Torah.

Our foundational unity would be that MJs keep Torah for the love of God, not for salvation, just as Yeshua kept Torah for the love of God, and not for salvation.

 

[Lulav]

If we say it like this, no one can tell someone Torah is invalid, AND no one can judge anyone on how they keep Torah.

Our foundational unity would be that MJs keep Torah for the love of God, not for salvation, just as Yeshua kept Torah for the love of God, and not for salvation.

 

[Truthfrees]

Welcome....

Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d His way, in Spirit and Truth, which brings Life.*

We believe:

• First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
• Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
• The Torah of Moses is the halacha Yeshua practiced.
• Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way he/she believes Yeshua did.
• Yeshua practiced Torah for the love of G-d, not for salvation, therefore we do the same.
• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
• Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah because they fear G-d, love His commandments, and keep them.[/QUOTE]

What does this sound like for the re-wording of the first part of our sop?

 

[visionary]

If we say it like this, no one can tell someone Torah is invalid, AND no one can judge anyone on how they keep Torah.

Our foundational unity would be that MJs keep Torah for the love of God, not for salvation, just as Yeshua kept Torah for the love of God, and not for salvation.

This sounds good!!

 

[Tishri1]

This is a nice statement Truthfrees!

Would the truth be that:

1. MJs believe and practice: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

2. BUT but we allow that not all Jews and Gentiles agree with this, so we don't force anyone to keep the Torah of Moses if they don't understand that this is what Yeshua lived and taught?

So perhaps we could change the 2nd statement to: We DON'T INSIST (FORCE) all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, IF THEY DON'T BELIEVE STATEMENT #1: The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’

SUGGESTED EDIT
We believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow HIM’ (Matthew 16:24, 1 John 2:6).

But we allow that others may not see this truth, and for this reason do not force Torah on all Jews and Gentiles.

 

[Tishri1]

Good catch !!

Psalm 19:8(7)-10(9) (CJB)
8(7) The Torah of Adonai is perfect, restoring the inner person. The instruction of Adonai is sure, making wise the thoughtless.
9(8) The precepts of Adonai are right, rejoicing the heart. The mitzvah of Adonai is pure, enlightening the eyes.
10(9) The fear of Adonai is clean, enduring forever. The rulings of Adonai are true, they are righteous altogether,


Shouldn't it be understood that Paul (Romans 8:4) was never against the Torah of Adonai.

Romans 8:4 (CJB)
so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.

Is, "all Jews and Gentiles" (SOP language) referring just to Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles or all Jews and Gentiles?

 

[Tishri1]

We want to establish an understanding of what MJ teaching is but not make MJs do something they are not already convicted of. When you start making folks leave the forum because they don't completely practice like you do there is a big problem. On the other hand teaching against following Torah wouldn't be typically MJ and teaching that to follow Torah for salvation would also not be typically MJ either. I think Truthfrees is pretty close there!!!!!

The statement of what we believe is: "That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’." This is implying that following Yeshua involves keeping the Torah just like He did. Therefore to say that only some believers, "not all Jews and Gentiles", are called to keep Torah is the same as saying that only some believers are called to follow Yeshua. So the SOP is not clear whether this MJ sub-forum believes that keeping the Torah is part of Christianity in general, or just a fringe option. I thought the purpose of this whole SOP business was to settle that aspect in particular. I'm not trying to push what I believe, I'm just saying that the wording isn't decisive, so the arguments could just flare up again.

 

[Tishri1]

More succinct! Great!

I know I thought so too. Anyone have issues with Truthfrees paragraph here:

MJs believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept. Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.

 

[BelieveTheWord]

I know I thought so too. Anyone have issues with Truthfrees paragraph here:

MJs believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept. Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.

I think that is pretty good.

 

[AbbaLove]

I know I thought so too. Anyone have issues with Truthfrees paragraph here:

MJs believe the Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept. Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way that he/she believes Yeshua did.

The inclusion of Torah (halacha) is certainly reasonable to reaffirm that this is a Messianic Judaism forum as does the following inclusion in the new MJ SOP ...
​

Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe as Yeshua taught that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.

 

[visionary]

Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d His way, in Spirit and Truth, which brings Life.*

We believe:

• First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.
• Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.
• The Torah of Moses is the halacha Yeshua practiced.
• Yeshua instructed us to ‘Follow Me’, therefore we leave it to each individual to practice Torah (halacha) in a way he/she believes Yeshua did.
• Yeshua practiced Torah for the love of G-d, not for salvation, therefore we do the same.
• The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.
• Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah because they fear G-d, love His commandments, and keep them.

What does this sound like for the re-wording of the first part of our sop?[/QUOTE]
Nice!!

 

[Elihoenai]

If we say it like this, no one can tell someone Torah is invalid, AND no one can judge anyone on how they keep Torah.

Our foundational unity would be that MJs keep Torah for the love of God, not for salvation, just as Yeshua kept Torah for the love of God, and not for salvation.

This sounds good!!

The Love of Jehovah/Yahweh God is Salvation.

A person cannot Love who they have not known and much more who they have not heard.



John 14:15 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

15 `If ye love me, my commands keep,

 

[Heber Book List]

I have just read the newly highlighted SOP...

I am sure I'll be shouted at but, please, can we at least have the English corrected in the SOP that says DUEL ATTENDANCE (as in 'fighting with swords or guns'), by replacing it with DUAL ATTENDANCE (as in 'attending more than one place')?

We have enough battles on here without suggesting that we have duels, as they did in the 19th century, at dawn with swords or pistols!

BTW - I have mentioned this before but it has not been taken on board!

 

[Truthfrees]

I have just read the newly highlighted SOP...

I am sure I'll be shouted at but, please, can we at least have the English corrected in the SOP that says DUEL ATTENDANCE (as in 'fighting with swords or guns'), by replacing it with DUAL ATTENDANCE (as in 'attending more than one place')?

We have enough battles on here without suggesting that we have duels, as they did in the 19th century, at dawn with swords or pistols!

BTW - I have mentioned this before but it has not been taken on board!

AWESOME!

Good catch!

 

[yonah_mishael]

It's a terrible practice to translate ever instance of νόμος with the word "Torah." That leads to terrible misunderstandings.

 

[AbbaLove]

*It's a terrible practice to translate ever instance of νόμος with the word "Torah." That leads to terrible misunderstandings.

The majority of MJ members consider the "Torah (of Moses)" as equivalent with the word "Law" as referenced in the Gospels. The point being that the primary difference between Christianity and Messianic Judaism is that the majority of Christendom considers the Ten Commandments to have been "nailed to the cross" and no longer a lawful requirement among most Christian denominations. Whereas, it's my understanding Messianic Judaism believes that in order to truly Love G-d with all your being and love your neighbor as yourself one will have a strong desire to obey the Ten Commandments from a heart of loving-kindness (chesed) and a loving relationship (avaha) with Adonai.

The reason I changed my faith icon from Christian to Messianic is because I believe too many Christians have taken the "Grace of G-d" to an extreme in which, according to their theology, they are no longer under the "Law" including obedience to the Ten Commandments.

However, to go down the *road you want to travel may not be necessary for the purposes of this new MJ SOP. A SOP that was written to satisfy the diversity of Biblical interpretations among Messianic Jews and Messianic Gentiles. Therefore, it is purposely written so it can be interpreted according to the one's beliefs ... just as it often seems to be the case when interpreting NT scriptures depending on one's beliefs/theology. To add additional language could be seen as promoting a certain theology which isn't the intent of a MJ SOP in this MJ forum composed of Messianic Jews and Messanic Gentiles.

MJs have differing opinions on exactly what the word "Torah" is understood to include. Some prefer to interpret "Torah" as the first five books of the Hebrew Bible, others may interpret "Torah" as the entire Tanakh and others may interpret "Torah" as also including the Talmud. Messianic Gentiles may even consider the "complete Torah" as encompassing all 66 books of the Bible as devinely inspired of God "for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness" (2 Timothy 3:16)

It would be helpful to know where you are going with ... *"It's a terrible practice to translate ever instance of νόμος with the word "Torah." That leads to terrible misunderstandings." Because of your thorough knowledge of Hebrew and Greek scriptures it would be helpful if you were to start another thread explaining in more detail what word(s) and implied usage would be more appropriate to the context of the following NT scriptures.

Matthew 5:17 N-AMS
GRK:καταλῦσαι τὸν νόμον ἢ τοὺς
NAS: to abolish the Law or
KJV: to destroy the law, or
INT: to abolish the law or the

Matthew 5:18 N-GMS
GRK: ἀπὸ τοῦ νόμου ἕως ἂν
NAS: shall pass from the Law until
KJV: pass from the law, till all
INT: from the law until anyhow

Matthew 7:12 N-NMS
GRK: ἐστιν ὁ νόμος καὶ οἱ
NAS: you, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
KJV: this is the law and the prophets.
INT: is the law and the

Matthew 11:13 N-NMS
GRK: καὶ ὁ νόμος ἕως Ἰωάννου
NAS: the prophets and the Law prophesied
KJV: and the law prophesied
INT: and the law until John

Matthew 12:5 N-DMS
GRK: ἐν τῷ νόμῳ ὅτι τοῖς
NAS: have you not read in the Law, that on the Sabbath
KJV: in the law, how that
INT: in the law that on the

Matthew 22:36 N-DMS
GRK: ἐν τῷ νόμῳ
NAS: is the great commandment in the Law?
KJV: commandment in the law?
INT: in the law

Matthew 22:40 N-NMS
GRK: ὅλος ὁ νόμος κρέμαται καὶ
NAS: the whole Law and the Prophets.
KJV: hang all the law and the prophets.
INT: all the law hangs and

Matthew 23:23 N-GMS
GRK: βαρύτερα τοῦ νόμου τὴν κρίσιν
NAS: the weightier provisions of the law:justice
KJV: the weightier [matters] of the law,judgment,
INT: weightier [matters] of the law justice

Luke 2:22 N-AMS
GRK: κατὰ τὸν νόμον Μωυσέως ἀνήγαγον
NAS: according to the law of Moses
KJV: according to the law of Moses
INT: according to the law of Moses they brought

Luke 2:23 N-DMS
GRK: γέγραπται ἐν νόμῳ Κυρίου ὅτι
NAS: (as it is written in the Law of the Lord,
KJV: it is written in the law of the Lord,
INT: it has been written in [the] law of [the] Lord That

Luke 2:24 N-DMS
GRK: ἐν τῷ νόμῳ Κυρίου ζεῦγος
NAS: to what was said in the Law of the Lord,
KJV: in the law of the Lord,
INT: in the law of [the] Lord A pair

Luke 2:27 N-GMS
GRK: εἰθισμένον τοῦ νόμου περὶ αὐτοῦ
NAS: out for Him the custom of the Law,
KJV: after the custom of the law,
INT: what had become customary by the law for him

Luke 2:39 N-AMS
GRK: κατὰ τὸν νόμον Κυρίου ἐπέστρεψαν
NAS: according to the Law of the Lord,
KJV: according to the law of the Lord,
INT: according to the law of [the] Lord they returned

Luke 10:26 N-DMS
GRK: Ἐν τῷ νόμῳ τί γέγραπται
NAS: is written in the Law? How
KJV: in the law? how
INT: In the law what has been written

Luke 16:16 N-NMS
GRK: Ὁ νόμος καὶ οἱ
NAS: The Law and the Prophets
KJV: The law and the prophets
INT: The law and the

Luke 16:17 N-GMS
GRK: ἢ τοῦ νόμου μίαν κεραίαν
NAS: stroke of a letter of the Law to fail.
KJV: one tittle of the law to fail.
INT: than of the law one tittle

Luke 24:44 N-DMS
GRK: ἐν τῷ νόμῳ Μωυσέως καὶ
NAS: about Me in the Law of Moses
KJV: were written in the law of Moses, and
INT: in the law of Moses and

John 1:17 N-NMS
GRK: ὅτι ὁ νόμος διὰ Μωυσέως
NAS: For the Law was given through
KJV: For the law was given by
INT: For the law through Moses

John 1:45 N-DMS
GRK: ἐν τῷ νόμῳ καὶ οἱ
NAS: Moses in the Law and [also] the Prophets
KJV: Moses in the law, and the prophets,
INT: in the law and the

John 7:19 N-AMS
GRK: ὑμῖν τὸν νόμον καὶ οὐδεὶς
NAS: give you the Law, and [yet] none
KJV: give you the law, and [yet] none
INT: to you the law and no one

John 7:19 N-AMS
GRK: ποιεῖ τὸν νόμον τί με
NAS: of you carries out the Law? Why
KJV: you keepeth the law? Why go ye about
INT: practices the law Why me

John 7:23 N-NMS
GRK: λυθῇ ὁ νόμος Μωυσέως ἐμοὶ
NAS: so that the Law of Moses
KJV: that the law of Moses
INT: might be broken the law of Moses with me

John 7:49 N-AMS
GRK: γινώσκων τὸν νόμον ἐπάρατοί εἰσιν
NAS: which does not know the Law is accursed.
KJV: knoweth not the law are cursed.
INT: knows the law accursed are

John 7:51 N-NMS
GRK: Μὴ ὁ νόμος ἡμῶν κρίνει
NAS: Our Law does not judge a man
KJV: Doth our law judge [any] man,
INT: Not the law of us does judge

John 8:5 N-DMS
GRK: δὲ τῷ νόμῳ ἡμῖν Μωυσῆς
NAS: Now in the Law Moses commanded
KJV: Moses in the law commanded us,
INT: moreover the law us Moses

It is generally understood that the "Law" is referring to what most Messianics (MJs) can [hopefully] agree is generally understood to mean the "Torah of Moses" aka the First Five Books of the Hebrew Bible.

(edit: rewrite last sentence of first paragraph for clarification)

 

[Truthfrees]

It's a terrible practice to translate every instance of νόμος with the word "Torah." That leads to terrible misunderstandings.

I agree with Yonah for this reason.

In the NT, the law of sin and death for sure does not mean Torah (the instructions and teachings of YHVH).

So for this reason you can't do a straight across translation EVERY time.

Context needs to be looked at when calling something Torah (instructions and teachings of YHVH).

These kinds of extremely wrong interpretations have caused many Christians to genuinely believe the Torah given to Moses, and lived, taught and promoted by Yeshua, is done away with, because it's now erroneously being called the law of sin and death.

The law of sin and death is the spiritual law of "sinning produces death", "disobeying YHVH produces trouble", etc.

 

[Truthfrees]

It is generally understood that the "Law" is referring to what most Messianics (MJs) can [hopefully] agree is generally understood to mean the "Torah of Moses" aka the First Five Books of the Hebrew Bible.

This is generally agreed upon.

The catch is that Torah (YHVH's instructions and teachings given to Moses) is found all through the TNK and the NT.

Why is Torah (YHVH's instructions and teachings given to Moses) found all through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation?

Yeshua AND YHVH's prophets, priests, and kings OFTEN quoted, promoted, and clarified Torah (YHVH's instructions and teachings given to Moses).

IOW, nothing in the TNK or the NT disagrees with Torah (YHVH's instructions and teachings given to Moses).

If something seems to disagree with Torah, it's a misunderstanding.

 

[Dave-W]

The thing is, Greek had no word for "legalism." So nomos νόμος was used for that as well. I do not think we want to equate legalism with Torah.