Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

big macher · Nov 10, 2015

Open Heart said:
Unless those of us of the Bilateral Approach are ALSO allowed to express our opinions, they should call this the One Law forum or the Hebrew Roots forum.

For those that are members of Messianic Jewish synagogues and are Jewish have a different view because they are practicing Judaism and unfortunately Judaism doesn't believe non Jews are equal in terms of Torah observance. We are talking about synagogues here and synagogue system not a church or a group or a congregation. This is my mindset. And I don't completely agree with Messianic Judaism in regards to Torah observance with non Jews. My opinion is if someone doesn't agree with it then they shouldn't go. Current Messianic Jewish organizations are most definitely getting more in line with Judaism which 'has it's stuff'.

Meowzltov · Nov 10, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
Correct. Christianity is just the gentile version of messianic Judaism.

While I agree with what you say, I also say that conversion is involved when you come to accept Yeshua as your savior, whether you begin attending an MJ synagogue, or whether you are an MJ within a Christian church.

Meowzltov · Nov 10, 2015

FreeinChrist said:
The intent is that the forum is not One Law or Two Law. As a site, we have the goalof equality in regards to to the individual's call to follow the Torah.

Then you are going to need a rewrite of the SOP, as it currently is ambiguous enough that it WILL be used to discriminate against those who are two law (Bilateral Approach).

That Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah and on this forum both Jews and Gentiles that fear G-d and wish to walk in His commandments shall be allowed to do so without recrimination.

Although most Two Law folks DO leave room for exceptional Gentiles to be called to Torah observance, many of the Gentiles in the forum interpret our insistance that MOST Gentiles are not as a "put down" of Gentiles. They WILL apply this recrimination rule against us. They also claim that by assigning different roles to Jews and Gentiles, we are making them UNEQUAL (rather than different but equal as are men and women). Again, this rule will be used against us.

If you want Two Law folks to have the freedom to post, you will need to clarify this a bit better in the SOP.

Meowzltov · Nov 10, 2015

big macher said:
People have to remember and realize that Messianic Judaism isn't the church.

Imagine two circles that overlap a bit. One circle is Synagogue, and the other circle is Church. In the area of intersection is the MJ synagogue, which is both a synagogue and a church. YES, MJ IS CERTAINLY A JUDAISM; you get no argument from on that! But it is also a version of Christianity because it teaches salvation through Yeshua. Again, it lies within the intersection of the two circles.

big macher · Nov 10, 2015

Open Heart said:
Imagine two circles that overlap a bit. One circle is Synagogue, and the other circle is Church. In the area of intersection is the MJ synagogue, which is both a synagogue and a church. YES, MJ IS CERTAINLY A JUDAISM; you get no argument from on that! But it is also a version of Christianity because it teaches salvation through Yeshua. Again, it lies within the intersection of the two circles.

I would say Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism, The Way. And Christianity is a version of Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism existed before Christianity. Then Messianic Judaism was lost per se then it came back.

I like how Beth Yeshua lays it out...

http://www.cby.org/beliefs/

Meowzltov · Nov 10, 2015

big macher said:
One Law isn't Messianic Judaism because one law isn't Judaism. I might call it an off shot of MJ but it's not a brand.

I understand what you are saying, and I think you can make a good argument for it. But I think they can similarly make an argument that they ARE in fact a form of MJ. I am at a loss how it would be best to handle your opinion. On the one hand, I am in favor of allowing all MJ opinions, and I think yours is shared by a significant minority. One the other hand, stating this opinion in the room would disenfranchise the majority of members.

But then, aren't you the one who wanted to change the forum name to Messianic Believers? That would be consistant.

FreeinChrist · Nov 10, 2015

Open Heart said:
Then you are going to need a rewrite of the SOP, as it currently is ambiguous enough that it WILL be used to discriminate against those who are two law (Bilateral Approach).Although most Two Law folks DO leave room for exceptional Gentiles to be called to Torah observance, many of the Gentiles in the forum interpret our insistance that MOST Gentiles are not as a "put down" of Gentiles. They WILL apply this recrimination rule against us. They also claim that by assigning different roles to Jews and Gentiles, we are making them UNEQUAL (rather than different but equal as are men and women). Again, this rule will be used against us.

If you want Two Law folks to have the freedom to post, you will need to clarify this a bit better in the SOP.

Open Heart, the Two Law position is not going to be allowed and it is not up for debate. We want to get away from labels such as one law or two law.

The position of this site is that this forum is open to Messianic Judaism members whether they are Jew or Gentile and that they are not to be discouraged in any way if they are being called to follow the Torah. Specifically:

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.

What this means is that the position of this site is that Gentiles are not required as a group to follow the Torah for their salvation, but individuals may be called to follow it in love for God, and should not be discouraged. In turn, they are not be accused of stealing Jewish identity as they try to follow the Torah.

pat34lee · Nov 10, 2015

staff edit.

Two things. I don't think the majority of MJ is 2 law, but
if it is, the majority is wrong. Ethnically Jewish MJ's may be
another matter, but they are a minority.

Tzitzit are another matter. They are commanded in the Torah.
If you want to keep Jewish identity, keep the kippahs. They
are traditional.

ContraMundum · Nov 11, 2015

FreeinChrist said:
You make some good points but this thread is not really for rewriting it.

Some of what you bring up involves moderating issues. The fact is, no congregational forum should be using that forum to flame or bash another congregation. That is the same here and has been an issue. For instance, if you are opposed to Catholic beliefs, debate it in General Theology, not here. Catholics cannot come here and defend their beliefs.
But you also should not be seeing other congregational forums posting against MJ beliefs and that has been a problem. To some extent, other congregations can discuss other churches/groups and disagree and why, but it should not be causing a debate. The part about links is a moderating issue, too.

Unfortunately, the mods can end up making a rod for their own back unless something it set in stone. The way of preventing moderating issues is to preempt possible sources of offense. As it is the mods will soon become overworked again. Because so much of the debate in this forum is based on opinion and radical restorationist agendas things need to be reframed to fit better with the fabric of CF in general. The assumed and unwritten privilege to attack core beliefs of the CF site needs to be reeled in.

There is a long-established culture of church-bashing on this forum, and because at least half of the posters here attend Churches (as well as synagogues in some cases) surely addressing this has to be an area that should be firmed up.

What I think is really important here is quite simple: the MJ forum has to be brought in line with the other congregational forums at CF. This is where true unity will begin and find completion as well.

Let me elaborate: unless there is a commitment to core beliefs, no unity can be achieved. The bare minimum to qualify as Christian for the purposes of CF is a commitment to the Creed and of course the Trinitarian belief about the nature of God. As a forum MJ comes under the covering of the Christian section of CF. Despite the semantics over whether or not MJism is a "Judaism" or whatever, the core beliefs of mainstream and normative MJism are Trinitarian and Creed affirming- for the purposes of CF especially. Hence the placement of the forum in the congregation section under faith groups.

However, much of the posting culture here is decidedly anti-Christian. We have on record a history of attacks on the NT canon, the infallibility of the Apostolic writings, the Church, the nature of Christ, Christian believers themselves (almost weekly fellow Christians are regarded as lawless, even Law hostile) and of course a litany of teaching and debating from those who do not have a commitment to the bare minimum beliefs of CF (eg. non-Trinitarians debating and teaching) This surely is the source of much disruption and surely flies in the face of posting rights in any other congregational forum.

This is not to say that posters who represent legitimate religious groups and authorities have no right to post here. Surely Rabbinic Jewish posters should be able to post information and clarification about that religion to the forum. Many Messianic Jews like myself have a deep connection to that already. Likewise informed posters with a clearly recognizable expertise in any given field could likewise inform and clarify (eg. linguistics). But debate, slander and the presentation of clearly Christian-hostile posts from those not committed to the beliefs of CF as a whole can in no way contribute to forum unity.

Heber Book List · Nov 11, 2015

FreeinChrist said:
Open Heart, the Two Law position is not going to be allowed and it is not up for debate. We want to get away from labels such as one law or two law.

The position of this site is that this forum is open to Messianic Judaism members whether they are Jew or Gentile and that they are not to be discouraged in any way if they are being called to follow the Torah. Specifically:

While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that are called to do so.

What this means is that the position of this site is that Gentiles are not required as a group to follow the Torah for their salvation, but individuals may be called to follow it in love for God, and should not be discouraged. In turn, they are not be accused of stealing Jewish identity as they try to follow the Torah.

Supersessionism is the other way round - stripping Jews of their Jewishness. Reverse Supercessionism is the name for Gentiles becoming wannabe ethnic Jews

ContraMundum · Nov 11, 2015

pat34lee said:
Tzitzit are another matter. They are commanded in the Torah.
If you want to keep Jewish identity, keep the kippahs. They
are traditional.

Unfortunately Pat no one could know what a Tzitzis was or how to make one without Rabbinic Jewish culture and tradition, which is part of identity for us. You cannot separate much of the Torah from the community that lives it.

ContraMundum · Nov 11, 2015

The idea of two-law vs. one law is basically a waste of time. The problem only dissolves when people let others believe as they understand the law applies to them and not try to force law compliance or freedom on others. Rather than accuse others of not being "observant" enough, people should refrain and respect the conscience of others.

Paul said wisely:
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Why don't we take that seriously? And rather than imply that everyone eventually needs to agree with them (eg. "God will lead you into accepting my theology and way of life eventually") leave them in peace.

Just as much as there is a rule against teachings which are against Torah observance there should be an encouragement to accept differing views of what that means and to what that looks like this side of the Cross.

big macher · Nov 11, 2015

ContraMundum said:
The idea of two-law vs. one law is basically a waste of time. The problem only dissolves when people let others believe as they understand the law applies to them and not try to force law compliance or freedom on others. Rather than accuse others of not being "observant" enough, people should refrain and respect the conscience of others.

Paul said wisely:
Rom 14:5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God.

Why don't we take that seriously? And rather than imply that everyone eventually needs to agree with them (eg. "God will lead you into accepting my theology and way of life eventually") leave them in peace.

Just as much as there is a rule against teachings which are against Torah observance there should be an encouragement to accept differing views of what that means and to what that looks like this side of the Cross.

Yea the 2 law vs 1 law is a waste of time.

However Jewish indentity is important and I think everyone on the board would agree with that. Jewish indentity is tied with culture and traditions. Like you said about tzitzis. My take is if this board is going to associate itself with Judaism then it should be open to Jewish culture and traditions and yes this includes 'rabbinical' stuff. The Seder for instance is a traditional Seder with an added element of course. Not that the traditional Seder has changed but there's an 'element' now in the Seder.

Gxg (G²) · Nov 11, 2015

FreeinChrist said:
There are Jews here who are also part of a denomination such as Anglican or Catholic. While they cannot promote that church's beliefs that are unique to it, they are welcome here and can share why they are also Messianic and why they follow the Torah.

This has been a long-standing issue I thought was resolved long ago when it comes to the bottom line reality that Messianic Jews were never just Jews who were within Evangelical culture since there were Messianic Jews from several differing streams. What mattered ultimately was your views concerning the Law/Torah and the Jewish community - and this something the Messianic community has long discussed:

A lot of the problems (from what I recall years ago) centered extensively on the issues with others trying to claim Jewish people were not Jewish because they said they were Christians...or that one couldn't be Messianic Jewish and part of other camps (which is why we originally had the other forums such as Bridge Builders and others before they were merged into the main forum). And for the reference to older discussions:

Pesach...something to think about
Ancient Jewish Icons
Hebrew Christian
Priests
Jewish Ethnocentrism
Identity Chrisis: Slander
Promise of a Gentile Messiah
The authority of Rabbinic Judaism
What's it take to be a Messianic?
Icons and the last few years on CF
Is the Court of the Gentiles a bad place to be?
Gentiles in the Messianic Movement Article
Messianics and Dispensationalism
Who is a Jew? From our older son....
A response to the "MJ only" thread
Judaeo, Judaic, Judaizers, Judaize, Judaism
The difference between MJ and Christianity?
Are Gentiles Now a Chosen Royal Priesthood?
The Messianic Movement: A Western Subculture ?
Who believes this to be true: The Torah is not for Gentiles
Is anybody that accepts "Christ" considered a "Christian"?
Are Messianics/Jews4Jesus just evangelicals with yarmulkes?
Is anybody that accepts "Christ" considered a "Christian"?
The Commonwealth of Israel to be added to the MJ Statement of Faith? (bis)

Just my two cents..

Gxg (G²) · Nov 11, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Unfortunately, the mods can end up making a rod for their own back unless something it set in stone. The way of preventing moderating issues is to preempt possible sources of offense. As it is the mods will soon become overworked again. Because so much of the debate in this forum is based on opinion and radical restorationist agendas things need to be reframed to fit better with the fabric of CF in general. The assumed and unwritten privilege to attack core beliefs of the CF site needs to be reeled in.

There is a long-established culture of church-bashing on this forum, and because at least half of the posters here attend Churches (as well as synagogues in some cases) surely addressing this has to be an area that should be firmed up.

What I think is really important here is quite simple: the MJ forum has to be brought in line with the other congregational forums at CF. This is where true unity will begin and find completion as well.

Let me elaborate: unless there is a commitment to core beliefs, no unity can be achieved. The bare minimum to qualify as Christian for the purposes of CF is a commitment to the Creed and of course the Trinitarian belief about the nature of God. As a forum MJ comes under the covering of the Christian section of CF. Despite the semantics over whether or not MJism is a "Judaism" or whatever, the core beliefs of mainstream and normative MJism are Trinitarian and Creed affirming- for the purposes of CF especially. Hence the placement of the forum in the congregation section under faith groups.

However, much of the posting culture here is decidedly anti-Christian. We have on record a history of attacks on the NT canon, the infallibility of the Apostolic writings, the Church, the nature of Christ, Christian believers themselves (almost weekly fellow Christians are regarded as lawless, even Law hostile) and of course a litany of teaching and debating from those who do not have a commitment to the bare minimum beliefs of CF (eg. non-Trinitarians debating and teaching) This surely is the source of much disruption and surely flies in the face of posting rights in any other congregational forum.

This is not to say that posters who represent legitimate religious groups and authorities have no right to post here. Surely Rabbinic Jewish posters should be able to post information and clarification about that religion to the forum. Many Messianic Jews like myself have a deep connection to that already. Likewise informed posters with a clearly recognizable expertise in any given field could likewise inform and clarify (eg. linguistics). But debate, slander and the presentation of clearly Christian-hostile posts from those not committed to the beliefs of CF as a whole can in no way contribute to forum unity.

This....on point.

Gxg (G²) · Nov 11, 2015

ContraMundum said:
My proposal: Additions in bold underline.

Messianic Judaism Forum Statement of Purpose
Welcome to the Messianic Judaism forum! This forum is a gathering place for both Jews and Gentiles who have come to believe in Messiah Yeshua and wish to follow in His footsteps in worshiping the one True G-d in Spirit and in His way and truth which brings life.* While we don't support supersessionism we do support the right of any Gentile to take on what Torah observance they feel called to, not out of obligation nor for salvation but for the Love of G-d alone. This does not mean we believe all Jews and Gentiles must keep Torah, only those that believe they are called to do so.

We believe:

First and foremost that Yeshua is the promised Messiah to Israel and to the nations.

Messianic Judaism is a sect of Judaism that is the fulfillment of the Jewish Scriptures.

Messianic Judaism is also a sect of the Christian Church and inherits much of its theology and practice from it.

That The Torah of Moses is the same that Yeshua kept and He has instructed us to ‘Follow me’.

The books of the Bible (Genesis to Revelation) are ordained by G-d to be His word to us.

That Jew and Gentile are equal in Messiah and on this forum both Jews and Gentiles that fear G-d and wish to walk in His commandments shall be allowed to do so without recrimination.

>>>These beliefs must be respected by all posters<<<

Posts against these beliefs, or with the following content, will be actioned by staff.
Non-negotiable points:

No anti-missionary/counter-missionary posts or teachings against the New Covenant books or of Yeshua as Messiah, nor will any links to sites or teachers with those views be allowed.**

No replacement theology. No posts teaching or debating that the Church/Christians have replaced Israel or the Jewish people, or that Messianic Jews or Gentiles must forsake their covenantal responsibilities within Torah.

No anti-Torah theology. i.e. No posts accusing or debating that Messianic Jews or Gentiles are under the law, re-erecting the wall of partition, or that Torah has been made invalid for today.

Likewise there are to be no posts promoting Torah is exclusive to Jews only.

No anti-Church or anti-Christian posts will be allowed in keeping in alignment with CF rules in general and as per rule 1.

Non-Trinitatrians may not debate MJ or generally Christian theology as per CF rules but may contribute knowledge to topics, such as languages and Rabbinic Judiasm.

Additional Guidelines

Duel Attendance: Those who share our beliefs but do not attend a Messianic congregation and are in another denomination may post in this forum with the stipulation that they will not teach their Churches doctrines here. Please signify this in your signature or title found under your screen name. Please make sure you have read this thread & have agreed to its provisos before posting here. Likewise posters will refrain from criticism of the Churches of those who post here as this may cause offense.

Literature: While we believe that the Bible is the Word of G-d, we also believe that it can be educational and informative to study other Jewish Literature such as the Mishnah Torah, Talmud etc. We believe as Yeshua taught that this does not overrule the Torah, nor is on equal basis with Torah, but it can be used to clarify ambiguous passages in the Bible.

Homosexuality and Same Sex Marriage: may be discussed by MJ members only, however, no promotion of these topics is allowed. Promotion is defined as encouragement of the progress, growth, or acceptance of something including advertising and publicity.

_________________________________________________________________

*Congregational Rules: Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.

**'Anti- Missionary' and/or 'Counter Missionary' posts defined: We welcome Jews and Gentiles of any faith to ask questions about our beliefs, but purposeful speaking against our interpretation of the Scriptures pertaining to the Messiah will not be tolerated. While we understand the reason behind anti-missionary work, we will not tolerate the operation of such on these forums, this means in postings as well as private communication throughout this site.

FreeinChrist · Nov 11, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Unfortunately, the mods can end up making a rod for their own back unless something it set in stone. The way of preventing moderating issues is to preempt possible sources of offense. As it is the mods will soon become overworked again. Because so much of the debate in this forum is based on opinion and radical restorationist agendas things need to be reframed to fit better with the fabric of CF in general. The assumed and unwritten privilege to attack core beliefs of the CF site needs to be reeled in.

There is a long-established culture of church-bashing on this forum, and because at least half of the posters here attend Churches (as well as synagogues in some cases) surely addressing this has to be an area that should be firmed up.

What I think is really important here is quite simple: the MJ forum has to be brought in line with the other congregational forums at CF. This is where true unity will begin and find completion as well.

Let me elaborate: unless there is a commitment to core beliefs, no unity can be achieved. The bare minimum to qualify as Christian for the purposes of CF is a commitment to the Creed and of course the Trinitarian belief about the nature of God. As a forum MJ comes under the covering of the Christian section of CF. Despite the semantics over whether or not MJism is a "Judaism" or whatever, the core beliefs of mainstream and normative MJism are Trinitarian and Creed affirming- for the purposes of CF especially. Hence the placement of the forum in the congregation section under faith groups.

However, much of the posting culture here is decidedly anti-Christian. We have on record a history of attacks on the NT canon, the infallibility of the Apostolic writings, the Church, the nature of Christ, Christian believers themselves (almost weekly fellow Christians are regarded as lawless, even Law hostile) and of course a litany of teaching and debating from those who do not have a commitment to the bare minimum beliefs of CF (eg. non-Trinitarians debating and teaching) This surely is the source of much disruption and surely flies in the face of posting rights in any other congregational forum.

This is not to say that posters who represent legitimate religious groups and authorities have no right to post here. Surely Rabbinic Jewish posters should be able to post information and clarification about that religion to the forum. Many Messianic Jews like myself have a deep connection to that already. Likewise informed posters with a clearly recognizable expertise in any given field could likewise inform and clarify (eg. linguistics). But debate, slander and the presentation of clearly Christian-hostile posts from those not committed to the beliefs of CF as a whole can in no way contribute to forum unity.

Good points. It is important to remember that, as this forum is in the congregational area of CF, that this is a Trinitarian Christian forum. It is a forum that has welcomed those who not Christians or who are non-Trinitarian for the purposes of sharing Judaism with Christians in this forum. There should not be any posts that are aimed against the Christian faith or links posted that do.

We will have to look at this.

Heber Book List · Nov 11, 2015

Thank you for letting us in the east contribute while you have been asleep!

sahjimira · Nov 11, 2015

For what it's worth I am a messianic Christan
I believe torah and am learning .a lot here
I ask a lot of questions to learn
I have a love for Israel and MJ. I read all Ican but still hit bbumps in the road. Thanks to

you all for your kindly replies. I hope to be joining a Messianic congregation soon, praise God !

Aryeh Jay · Nov 11, 2015

pat34lee said:
The ancient Hebrews did not live in a vacuum. There are pictures
of how they dressed in Egyptian hieroglyphics. The Karaites also
seem to have no trouble making their own tzitzits without following
Rabbinic traditions.

Remember that Yeshua said the Pharisees (today's Rabbis) were
enlarging their tzitzit? Who do most people copy today?

Enlarge? Looks like the right size to me.

Staff/member discussion about the updated Statement of purpose

Jewish Believer

Freylekher Yid

Freylekher Yid

Freylekher Yid

Jewish Believer

Freylekher Yid

CF Advisory team

Messianic

Messianic Jewish Christian

Theologian [Applied Theology]

Messianic Jewish Christian

Messianic Jewish Christian

Jewish Believer

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

Pilgrim/Monastic on the Road to God (Psalm 84:1-7)

CF Advisory team

Theologian [Applied Theology]

God of miracles.. He saved ME!

Replaced by a robot, just like Biden.

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