Staff and Member discussion thread.

Qnts2 said:

Tish,

I have discussed these theologies also. Do you forbid the discussion of these theologies?

Messianic Judaism considers One Law theology and Two House theology and Replacement theology heresy.

My question was simple, if this forum supports and protects One Law, or Two House or Replacement theology, which Messianic Judaism has renounced, is this really a Messianic Judaism forum?

It would be the same for Baptist. If a Baptist labeled forum, supports infant baptism, is it really a Baptist forum?

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Qnts2 said:

I can't speak for all Messianics as this is an area with some variations in views.

I'll give my view.

At this time, some Jewish people are saved, but the nation of Israel is not saved. The Mosaic covenant was given to the children of Israel for all generations. That means the the nation of Israel is obligated to the Mosaic covenant, until they accept Jesus.

The Levites are the priesthood of the Mosaic covenant. There will be a regathering of the Jewish people into the land, in an unbelieving state. The Temple will be built which means the Levitical priests will be serving in the Temple. In the future, all children of Israel who are alive and see Yeshua return, will believe and come under the New Covenant.

Yeshua is the High Priest in the New Covenant. All believers are called priests. In the millenial reign, there will be a Temple. Sacrifices are mentioned in scripture. I am assuming that these sacrifices in Jerusalem, in the Temple, will be done by the Levitical priests.

So today, for those obligated to the Mosaic covenant, which would be the Jewish people who have not accepted Yeshua, the Mosaic covenant is still in effect with the Levitical priesthood.

I do not view the Mosaic law as the middle wall of partition between the Jewish people and the Gentile people. (although certain aspects of the Mosaic law are laws to keep the Jewish people unique as a people, and separated us from the surrounding peoples). The middle wall of partition was the covenants. We were not one people. Now, we are one people, in the New Covenant, the same body. Before, the Jewish people were under the Mosaic covenant, and receivers of the promises concerning the linage of the Messiah.

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talmidim said:

Shalom Avodat and Shalom All,

The more I read in this thread and in the New Icon thread, the more I am getting concerned. Beside the benefit of a 'safe haven' there is the very real concern that we are going to lose something precious. A dear friend wrote me recently and said, "I took a look at what is going on in MJ lately... I have some concerns. In the staff member discussion thread, there is a conclusion that AB is equal to CD and both are under the MJ umbrella. What is not addressed is if it is outside of Yeshua style halacha and [inside the] more interpretive Pauline style [that has led the Church to misinterpret much of Paul's letters concerning Torah and Grace]..."

The sentiment communicated to me is that every group wishes to be able to freely express the logic that has brought them to their particular beliefs. This is expressed through halachah and m'drash. It is a form of analysis and debate as old as Judaism itself.

Putting people of opposing beliefs in the same forum simply because they choose the same name and mandating that they not debate their core beliefs or their application of those beliefs in real life situations not only censors each person's ability to prove their beliefs (a very biblical concept), but it also favors one side over the other. The disputed doctrinal belief is of course, Torah observance. And a foundational belief among the Torah observant Messianic frames how Tanakh and Brith Chadasha are interpreted. This is subsequently proved and demonstrated through m'drash and halacha.

In that there seems to be an influx of new 'Messianic believers' that subscribe to the Greco-Roman interpretation of modern Christianity, the voice of the Torah observant of Messianic Judaism will soon be diluted. Add to that a restriction on debating our core values and the evangelical premise of a Torah observant lifestyle will quickly become overwhelmed and ineffectual.

There has been much accomplished recently to protect the Torah observant in this forum. For that I am very grateful, But I would hate to see these gains put in jeopardy by moving too fast in setting up new rules. Again I would urge that we see if what we have accomplished so far will work to everyone's satisfaction before making any more changes.

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Henaynei said:

No, not debate per se, but my impression of MarkR's suggestion was that and the other topics noted were off limits, not just off limits for debate.

b'Shalom {iPod touch w/CF app}

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Lulav said:

Why was my post edited? Does this break some new law?

I thought we were being asked for debate rules. They seemed very cumbersome to me and I came across this quote will using Stumble Upon and thought is was a lot more to the point then a bunch of rules that say , you can't do this and you can't do that like this is a secular forum.

While this person may not be a believer, what he says can be taken in a spiritual way. If a quote like this is posted in a debate area, perhaps the ones wishing to enter into debate will take this to heart and 'watch their words as they do become your destiny, or in our case have a big effect on our eternal being.

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

Henaynei and Anasavta, thanks for sharing your concerns.









Ok, I'll try and address this as best I can; I will start from the bottom up:

Trinity: This one is easy, Christian Forums SoF is the Nicene Creed; debate by anyone in any forum against the Trinity is therefore not allowed. It is included here because (as Tish stated earlier in the thread) there are non-trinitarian members of this forum, they may post here, but may not post against trinitarian doctrine, nor promote non-trinitarian theology either.

Who is MJ enough: This one is easy too; note our rule and the parts which I highlighted in red, and my notes in green:

If a non member is present and being disruptive; report them. If you believe that someone is using an icon of convenience to disrupt your forum; report them. State your reasons in the report, and staff will review it, and action it accordingly... it's what we do!

Kosher diet and MJ observance of torah: As per Tish's reply; Discussion is fine, but debating that "my way is better than your way" or you "must do this, that and/or the other thing" will not be allowed; however it's fine to state that "for me I believe that I must..." or "while I do 'this'; I may not do 'that'", would be OK providing that one does not cross the line with the flaming rules I quoted above. Debating against Kosher or Torah, whether by a member or non member is not allowed in this proposal.

It is not our desire to stifle meaningful discussion and debate; it is, however our desire to protect the members of the MJ fora, and (all) the members here from attack and harrasment; regardless of their personal levels of observance and adherence to the Torah and Kosher.

I hope that this clarifies things.

Mark

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MarkRohfrietsch said:

Hi talmidim,

You and your opponent would propose the debate, discuss and set the stipulations in this Forum:

Formal Debate Proposals; once this is done, one of the staff (usually me) would set it up here:

Formal Debate

We set up a linked Peanut Gallery thread in GT so the casual observers may discuss and debate among themselves; you and your opponent are welcome to post there as well, but most do not... you don't want to show your hand too soon. Debate participants do often check it out to help with strategy, and to see how they are doing.

If you need help or have additional questions, I would be glad to answer them.
http://www.christianforums.com/f924/

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