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The two issues are name calling/labeling and campaigns against Torah Observance so neither of them will be swept under any rugs
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The two issues are name calling/labeling and campaigns against Torah Observance so neither of them will be swept under any rugsHi Tish!
I suppose that I am certainly guilty of the name calling as it applies to the 'grace only' bunch.But I am confused, because this is the same term that they use to describe their doctrine! They will tell you that they are grace only and then scream foul if you describe them in the same terms. To me, it seems hypocritical, yet they still get offended. What am I to do?
So are we to differentiate members based on ethnicity, race and loosely applied and contentious labels as opposed to doctrine? That seems a little extreme. However, there are those people that were once say... Roman Catholic. They claim a newly discovered Jewish bloodline, call themselves Messianic, but bring nothing but Catechism to the forum. What is that??
The same can be said of people that are Jewish in both birth and upbringing. But they convert to Christianity, leaving the doctrines of Judaism behind and bring straight Christian doctrine and a blatant anti-Torah bias against Gentiles to the forum. Again, what is that?
Seems to me that the very people that want to use their own labels on us are the ones clamoring the loudest when they get labeled - and in their own terms.
On another topic, so the majority of the participants in this faith group now have to go to a sub-forum to debate their beliefs? Because in the poll I started based on that one question, there was a 5 to 1 margin for Torah observance. Seems a little weird.
we all have things we are passionate about, but the understanding that MJ is identifiable by a certain respect for and admiration for the Torah means that in their home forum campaigns or disruptions of threads discussing Torah are out of line even by those who identify themselves as MJ. As ani said it best, we all need to relearn how to dance in here and get along with all our varied beliefs, disruptions to the harmony of this place needs to be curtailedAs for me, the Messianic icon has never been a matter of convenience. As you can see, I am now flying it but only after a lot of prayer and consideration and argument in the MSC. What it has been is a matter of conviction as I do not believe that the Torah scroll represents all Messianics equally and I have struggled greatly with adopting it because I don't hold Torah higher than all other Scripture or higher than what Yeshua did for me on the cross. That doesn't make me or my belief anti-Torah. Torah is foundational in my faith but as a Christian, it's nothing without B'rit Hadashah just as Israel is nothing without Jesus/Yeshua. As far as I'm concerned, I have no problem with anyone's level of Torah observance or non-observance. I have a problem with legalism in Christianity, period and I have a problem with people putting forth non-Scripture as Scripture. I feel that all Christians are accountable to God for their witness and all Christians are my Brothers and Sisters.
Every thread doesn't need to be replied to, my advice is to avoid threads that you don't agree withExactly. One man's Torah observance and understanding is another's "anti-Torah post". It's utterly frustrating to watch and post in such a petty environment.
Then lead by example and be more tolerant of other understandings.
It's interesting that the likes of Wesley and the Westminster Confession had different views of the law of God. They regarded it as important to the believer.
I'm not going to debate on the semantics of the moral, civil and ceremonial laws or saying or implying it's right or wrong to separate...check this out, It's not talking about what some call the Law of Christ but is referring to the old testament( from previous verse that I didn't post)
Westminster Confession; V. The moral law does forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;[8] and that, not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator, who gave it.[9] Neither does Christ, in the Gospel, any way dissolve, but much strengthen this obligation.[10]
This is true to and sad, there has to be a better way to post than build up walls thru belittling and goading, and well you all know how it feels to be in a cold uncaring environmentYes, "Christian" is used as a pejorative term by quite a few posters here. The irony is that it has the exact same meaning as "Messianic"
We are not going to take the Jewishness out of MJ, that will never happenSo why not take away our distinction all together and just call us "another fringe Christian group" and be done with it. Is it so difficult to allow someone a distinction instead of a mishmash?
I just don't understand the desire of some to assimilate a Jewish believer into the Christian world instead of letting them keep their distinctions.
Contra you have embraced Christianity and for you it might work. But to deny another Jew and even a Gentile who identifies with the Jew the right to separate themselves from what they feel is offensive in Christianity is beyond me.
You might be wrong, and you might be sending the wrong message by separating from the rest of the world who are believers in Messiah. Some times in trying to protect and preserve we might be doing nothing but building a wall of separation.....respect goes both waysFor some the term Christian might be perceived as pejorative, but is intended, at least lin my case, as showing a distinction between two belief systems. For most Christian believe that the Torah has been done away with. It is simply a particularly Christian doctrine that I no longer accept. I think that is true for the majority of members in this 'faith group' here. No offence intended.
The affect can bring confusion among many Christian groups who puzzle as to why MJ doesn't consider themselves brothers and sisters, it makes them think we are not believers, I agree with Avodat, we need to be able to talk in a way that doesn't bring that confusion they seem to have about us. In our little area we wont see replacement theology happening to we can take fruit filled risks here and show who we are and send out our love in this placeI'm not sure it is a doctrine, as such, but yes most Christians take that view. It is all a part of Replacement Theology which has been taught to Christian ministers for more years than I care to think about; it is not easy to change decades of error! However, it will NEVER get changed as long as people attack the view rather than peacefully and patiently work at changing it. When did any of you seek to do that instead of running away from the error and resort to screaming at a distance? Before you shout that I'm being unfair - give some thought to how many times I've had to remind posters that CF doesn't allow some of the ways in which you guys treat Christianity, or to ask that Christians all over the world not be tarred with the same brush as some American Christians who seem to act rather differently than the rest of the world? And that's just on the few threads I join - hate to think what it might be like on others.
I'll help but I'm getting to know people and about MJ. I'm in learning, fellowshipping mode. None of us (except you) that may be a part of this helping team have the privilege of being a member of the congregation or any kind of knowledge base. I am looking forward to what the members have to say about the subject.
Shalom.
David really is a friend of MJ . he has great tips on how to post and share with out tripping up on our wordsDebating with proof or experience in accordance within the behavioral standards that the rules provide is sometimes a difficult thing to do. In my experience, lopping off those parts of our replies, and this statement is being made to whoever does it, that address the post adversely is something we strive for in every forum. Example: I do not agree with your version of MJ because of x, y, z. I don't know why you troublemakers always have to spoil everything. The first sentence was obviously within the limits. The second was a personal remark (flaming) that was unnecessary. Personal, denigrating, demean, flaming remarks are always unnecessary, they add nothing positive to what is being discussed, and just fan the flames of unnecessary and avoidable fires. As I said, this is just an example. No one is being singled out. God bless you and Shalom.
But the SoP, Rules and Forum specific rules do not allow other things - these should be understood before a person enters the thread. Most comments are tailor-made to the situation - so if someone (non-MJ) comes on here and starts to teach without being a Messianic they need to told that only Messianics can teach on these fora. Or if someone (non-MJ) comes on and starts debating, they need to be told that they may not debate. Both need to be advised that they should read the SoP for more information. Other Mods have agreed this system. However, we usually get protests because other fora on CF do not seem to have the same rules as here. When they have been told that they may not do A,B, or C (or even if we put it positively - you may only...) they simply go and change their icon, claim to be fully Messianic (or to have a Jewish bloodline somewhere in their ancestry) and just carry on posting anyway. This is the real problem here, as far as I can see in the few months I've been here. If we take up your suggested one-size-fits-all statement the obvious retort will be a demand for an explanation as to what is wrong with their post(s) and then we are back to debating with them why the rules are there etc etc etc. Then we get to the point where they are criticising CF (also not allowed) and we have to defend the rules. Far better to just tell them straight off what the rules allow and do not allow and to refer them to the SoP. In either case, they'll then simply change their icon and be back again with whatever agenda they want and we can do little about it because, within minutes, they appear to have had a blinding flash from G_d and change their religion! I've tried both ways round - positive and negative - and the responses are usually in line with what I have said.
Yeah sure it will make a great thread on its own!Thank you. I very much look forward to watching it.
Since this is a staff and member discussion with certain parameters set by our Advisor Tishri1, we may not be able to discuss it in this thread, however. But unless Tishri has objections, I'm sure a new thread could be started. Regardless and in any case, thank you.
I will look at it soonIt has to do with the discussion and will help to shed some more light.
what has been your experience with staff being anti Torah? I haven't seen that here in hereThe majority in this faith group is Torah observant to one degree or another (over 5 to 1 by the last poll), but Torah observant Messianics are BY FAR the minority at CF. We have already been marginalized to a sub-forum in order to discuss Torah observance. What next? Now we should ignore those that seek to reverse a century of progress in the Messianic movement, simply because the Mods and Admins share their anti-Torah bias? That doesn't seem fair.
Hello David, I am open to suggestion. However, my point is this: There are a certain group of people. They engage in negative behavior. They coordinate their behavior as a group. They subscribe to a particular doctrine. You would like us to point out the behavior, just without saying who it is, what they are doing or why - due in part to the negative connotations it would have. I guess my question is how would you do this? Should we just use underscore characters and redact all of the pertinent information, like a secret government report? David, there are times when the damage being done outweighs the potential for negative connotations.
My indicating that Christians are engaging in this behavior is not an indictment of all Christians, only those involved. But my description of a doctrine that is almost exclusively Christian is not so easy to ignore or to couch in other terms. I don't call them 'skells' or 'dirtbags' to use a couple of pejorative terms from popular TV. I describe them as Christian, grace only, brother and sister. You aren't leaving me a lot of options.
The majority in this faith group is Torah observant to one degree or another (over 5 to 1 by the last poll), but Torah observant Messianics are BY FAR the minority at CF. We have already been marginalized to a sub-forum in order to discuss Torah observance. What next? Now we should ignore those that seek to reverse a century of progress in the Messianic movement, simply because the Mods and Admins share their anti-Torah bias? That doesn't seem fair.
You choose a moniker. That's what we'll call 'em. But it is their behavior, not the name that carries the negative connotation. What has been done here, in this faith group, is the functional equivalent of lumping Pentecostals and Roman Catholics into the same forum and then deciding that they can't use their denominational designations to refer to each other because it might sound derogatory. Let me tell you brother, there will be fireworks every time you have one group of people actively seeking to change the beliefs of another. So my question becomes, why (no matter their ethnic or cultural background) are, what are functionally grace only Christians, lumped in with Torah observant Messianics? I'll tell you. Because when this Messianic movement went a different way than the Hebrew Christians back in the '80s, the Hebrew Christians decided that they wanted the name Messianic too. To understand how this has affected us today, you must realize that these Hebrew Christians that sit as 'elders' of these so called Messianic organizations, are products of Christian 'the law has been done away with' missionary organizations. They are by doctrine: Christian.
The problem isn't that we don't like Christians; we love Christians. Most of us were once Christians. Most of our friends and family are Christians. The same can be said of our love for the Jewish people. What we don't like, is allowing any people come here and LABEL us, TELL US how to believe, WHAT to believe and HOW to act before ELOHIM. That is the problem, not because we identify them or their behavior by name.
Everyone is so understanding of the Jewish people's fear of assimilation. Believe me, Torah observant Messianics get it. But for some reason, you don't recognize the same process here. All over the English speaking web, assimilating or expelling Torah observant Messianics seems to be the agenda. We are the ones being marginalized. We are the targets of CONSTANT bombardment of the grace only doctrine, replacement theology and anti-Torah bias most of us tried to leave behind when we joined this movement.
Every couple of months, for years, the same discussions are held, the same problems arise, the same non-solutions are considered. If some of us seem desparate, you might want to ask yourself why. Because there are only three ways this can go and two of them are losses.
1) It can stay the same which is not a win. We will continue is strife and persecution by those that believe as you do.
2) We, the Torah observant and Israeli centric, can be expelled or forced to change our name (going with Qnts2's solution). Definitely not a win. Or
3) We can receive more than a passing tip of the hat for protection from the constant harassment of the doctrine police. That would be a win.
Most will say that the forum is diverse and that is good. I would agree. I like it this way. But until there is some control over who can qualify as a Messianic in this faith group, doctrinally as opposed to ethnically or racially or as a matter of convenience, we will continue to be assaulted and harassed. And we will continue to complain and in doing so, name our detractors.
But suggest away David. We are listening.
I really can't believe my eyes here Tal, this tone is a great example of how folks come here and are immediately turned off to any understanding they may seek about our beliefsIt is suggested that we should be grateful for the 'buffet' that CF has laid out for us and accept their largess with all due gratitude. The connotation is that we should just shut up and be happy.
We hear you David. Good point indeed.
Sorry David, you didn't deserve that. Remember the sore thumb analogy? The one making those suggestions is one of those swinging the hammer. I'm just frustrated. Forgive me.
Lol love that pic!!!
I was hoping for something a lot better than family!
Hello David, I am open to suggestion. However, my point is this: There are a certain group of people. They engage in negative behavior. They coordinate their behavior as a group. They subscribe to a particular doctrine. You would like us to point out the behavior, just without saying who it is, what they are doing or why - due in part to the negative connotations it would have. I guess my question is how would you do this? Should we just use underscore characters and redact all of the pertinent information, like a secret government report? David, there are times when the damage being done outweighs the potential for negative connotations.
My indicating that Christians are engaging in this behavior is not an indictment of all Christians, only those involved. But my description of a doctrine that is almost exclusively Christian is not so easy to ignore or to couch in other terms. I don't call them 'skells' or 'dirtbags' to use a couple of pejorative terms from popular TV. I describe them as Christian, grace only, brother and sister. You aren't leaving me a lot of options.
The majority in this faith group is Torah observant to one degree or another (over 5 to 1 by the last poll), but Torah observant Messianics are BY FAR the minority at CF. We have already been marginalized to a sub-forum in order to discuss Torah observance. What next? Now we should ignore those that seek to reverse a century of progress in the Messianic movement, simply because the Mods and Admins share their anti-Torah bias? That doesn't seem fair.
You choose a moniker. That's what we'll call 'em. But it is their behavior, not the name that carries the negative connotation. What has been done here, in this faith group, is the functional equivalent of lumping Pentecostals and Roman Catholics into the same forum and then deciding that they can't use their denominational designations to refer to each other because it might sound derogatory. Let me tell you brother, there will be fireworks every time you have one group of people actively seeking to change the beliefs of another. So my question becomes, why (no matter their ethnic or cultural background) are, what are functionally grace only Christians, lumped in with Torah observant Messianics? I'll tell you. Because when this Messianic movement went a different way than the Hebrew Christians back in the '80s, the Hebrew Christians decided that they wanted the name Messianic too. To understand how this has affected us today, you must realize that these Hebrew Christians that sit as 'elders' of these so called Messianic organizations, are products of Christian 'the law has been done away with' missionary organizations. They are by doctrine: Christian.
The problem isn't that we don't like Christians; we love Christians. Most of us were once Christians. Most of our friends and family are Christians. The same can be said of our love for the Jewish people. What we don't like, is allowing any people come here and LABEL us, TELL US how to believe, WHAT to believe and HOW to act before ELOHIM. That is the problem, not because we identify them or their behavior by name.
Everyone is so understanding of the Jewish people's fear of assimilation. Believe me, Torah observant Messianics get it. But for some reason, you don't recognize the same process here. All over the English speaking web, assimilating or expelling Torah observant Messianics seems to be the agenda. We are the ones being marginalized. We are the targets of CONSTANT bombardment of the grace only doctrine, replacement theology and anti-Torah bias most of us tried to leave behind when we joined this movement.
Every couple of months, for years, the same discussions are held, the same problems arise, the same non-solutions are considered. If some of us seem desparate, you might want to ask yourself why. Because there are only three ways this can go and two of them are losses.
1) It can stay the same which is not a win. We will continue is strife and persecution by those that believe as you do.
2) We, the Torah observant and Israeli centric, can be expelled or forced to change our name (going with Qnts2's solution). Definitely not a win. Or
3) We can receive more than a passing tip of the hat for protection from the constant harassment of the doctrine police. That would be a win.
Most will say that the forum is diverse and that is good. I would agree. I like it this way. But until there is some control over who can qualify as a Messianic in this faith group, doctrinally as opposed to ethnically or racially or as a matter of convenience, we will continue to be assaulted and harassed. And we will continue to complain and in doing so, name our detractors.
But suggest away David. We are listening.
Sure it is, Torah and Tradition has been the foundation of the movement from way back, the fact that Jews don't have to give them up and that Yeshua and his Desciples can be seen encouraging these practices is very intrical to the MJ movement. Ask my Rabbi who has been in the movement since the 70's and myself since the 90's both the UMJC and the MJAA hold services and teach on many Torah topicsI'm not too sure the birth of MJAA was really about Torah observance per se from reading and being involved.
Actually the word legalism is offensive in here, what you might see as legalism is someone's obedience to what the Father has called them to and that's what I'm trying to say respect for the levels of Torah observance needs to be practiced in here as it is one of the traits we see in MJ and it's in our sop.And I find this to be true of all Christians. There are enormous variations in the way that people exercise their faith.
Because of all that Jesus/Yeshua has done for us and the incredible love God has lavished upon us in the gift of His Son, we should be able to manifest that love in love for ALL believers, not just those who express themselves in Messianism. Both within and without Messianism, legalism needs to go.
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